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Abortion Debate

This forum is for Abortion debate only. If you are highly sensitive about this topic, read at your own discretion.

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  #2  
June 29th, 2007, 11:25 AM
*Aspen*
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Does it really matter? It sounds like debating semantics to me. It doesn't change what is happening either way no matter how it's spun.
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  #4  
June 29th, 2007, 11:35 AM
*Aspen*
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Does it really matter? It sounds like debating semantics to me. It doesn't change what is happening either way no matter how it's spun.[/b]
Yes it does. I honestly think it is a coping mechanism in order to justify abortion. The statement that abortion does not sacrifice the child during its birth is not true. To me, that is the essence of abortion. To others, it is completely false.
[/b]
I find it no different than using the term "murder" to justify that abortion is wrong.
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  #5  
June 29th, 2007, 11:43 AM
Liz Liz is offline
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I do think the point is moot because it's merely using words we associate with joy (birth) to cause the opposite emotional response (sadness). Honestly, I haven't seen one pro-choice person on this board not allude to in one way or another that abortion is a sad, but necessary, option.

What I find even sadder than the act of abortion is a woman, trapped without any options available to make responsible decisions for her own life.

ETA: fix typo
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  #6  
June 29th, 2007, 11:46 AM
*Aspen*
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I do think the point is moot because it's merely using words we associate with joy (birth) to cause the opposite emotional response (sadness). Honestly, I haven't seen one pro-choice person on this board not allude to in one way or anotehr that abortion is a sad, but necessary, option.

What I find even sadder than the act of abortion is a woman, trapped without any options available to make responsible decisions for her own life.

ETA: fix typo[/b]
I agree.

I pm'ed you by the way.
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  #8  
June 29th, 2007, 12:43 PM
*Aspen*
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The thing is Cece, even if words describe a situation "dicionarily" it doesn't mean they should be used in X and X circumstances. I remember ( I think it was you even ) a debate a while back (long time ago) about the word murder. How it could "technically" be used to describe abortion, but even though abortion may fit the definition, it's not a word that should be used because of the emotions involved when speaking about abortion. While something may be true in the dictionary, it doesn't necessarily make it right to use it in a "societal" sense when speaking of such highly topics.

I think pro-lifers like to pull out the "harsh" words to show how "evil and wrong" abortion is. Use w/e words you want...it doesn't change what is happening.

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I do think the point is moot because it's merely using words we associate with joy (birth) to cause the opposite emotional response (sadness). Honestly, I haven't seen one pro-choice person on this board not allude to in one way or another that abortion is a sad, but necessary, option. What I find even sadder than the act of abortion is a woman, trapped without any options available to make responsible decisions for her own life.ETA: fix typo[/b]
Abortion does not resolve anything; it only adds to the chaos.[/b]
How do you know this? How do you know that abortion isn't the answer for one woman and that it takes away from the problems of her life instead of adding to it by having the child?

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She is further trapping herself when she resorts to abortion[/b]
Again...how? This is your opinion, so it doesn't make it true. There are many women who are completely happy with their decision to abort.
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There are other options besides parenting.[/b]
Adoption is a good choice. And I'd love to see more women give children up to adoption than abortion, but it's not reality. There are too many emotions involved to carry a child, birth the child and give the child away, even if it's in the best interest. THIS can cause serious mental/emotional problems for the mother.

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I also agree that resources and support are not abundant everywhere, and I believe that that is one of the first steps we need to take before abortion can become non-existant.[/b]
As long as women are terrified of birthing a child into an abusive family lifestyle, abortion will exist.
As long as women are raped, abortion will exist.
As long as a womans life is in danger from a pregnancy, abortion will exist.
Abortion will exist for ALL scenarios, abortion will NEVER become non-existent. It will only be turned into back alley abortions which would cause more sadness and death
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  #9  
June 29th, 2007, 01:03 PM
Liz Liz is offline
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How is this moot??? It is an extremely important aspect in abortion and how one views it.Honestly, I feel like when I do give evidence, it just somehow gets blown off as 'insignificant', even when I adhere to the 'standards' of what is a credible source and what isn't. It gets frustrating.Point is, abortion DOES sacrifice the child during its birth. It is reality. Tragic, but true. Those who don't agree are either in denial (i.e., coping mechanism), do not have correct information on the procedure itself, did not read the links that define 'birth', and/or a combination of the above. I am not sure if 'murder' is necessarily a coping mechanism. It certainly elicits highly emotional responses, but I don't think it helps those who are prolife 'deal' with the reality of abortion.Hmmm...on second thought, I can see how it is used as a coping mechanism (the term 'murder'). But I don't believe it is the correct term to use anyway, in regards to the woman and abortion. Now... the abortionist is a totally different story....[/b]
The point is moot because (I dare say) most people here understand the mechanics of abortion. When associating it with a word such as "birth" which implies a child is born alive, the cord is cut and this healthy, baby is born and then killed - is inaccurate and a huge stretch under assumed definition. Which IS what makes the statement "sacrificing a child at birth" simply emotional tactic to make the situation seem far more tragic than it is. And yes, I agree, it is a tragic situation. But, it's not doctors delivering live, healthy babies and then killing them.

Ironically enough, many (not all) of the pro-lifers have stated they can accept the practice if the mother's life is in danger. When and how exactly do you think those very necessary abortions take place? The vast majority of time (with exception of a tubal pregnancy) those abortions are mid to late term abortions; often partial birth abortions. Yet, these are the very abortions that were recently banned. So, essentially, a ban has been placed on abortions that actually took place on very wanted, very loved children whose parents felt they had no other option but to abort and didn't even touch the elective abortions that are so vehemently opposed. So these new bans have created even more pain and suffering to an already emotionally torn family.

The point of that slight tangent is this - if using the word "birth" supposedly adds a more accurate depiction of abortion in your mind and then supports your pro-life stance with exception of when the mother's life is in danger - why be supportive of mother's not willing to die for a child which may not live outside the womb if the specific abortion involved induces birth and in turn, death?

Lastly, let me just say that for me, it simply doesn't matter. Abortion, murder, fetus, baby, birth, removal - it's all semantics.
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  #11  
June 29th, 2007, 01:21 PM
*Aspen*
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I know this because I know of many, many more women who state that they regret their abortion, and how much harm and trauma it caused in their lives, than women who are 'completely happy' with their decision to abort.[/b]
This does not mean it causes chaos for ALL women who have abortions. Some women are truly content with their choice. Just because you have experienced more of the latter, doesn't make this not true.
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In fact, I don't know one woman who is happy about their decision. [/b]
Content was more of the word I was looking for.

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I believe that many of those who are comfortable with their decision are really only hiding behind a facade of sorts.[/b]
There are women out there who are content with their decision. You WANT to believe they are only in denial because it supports your stance.


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Abortion adds to the chaos. This is evident when you look at the effects of P.A.S. (or P.A.S.S.). Abortion is crippling. The 'help' it brings forth is only temporary (at least, for most).[/b]
You said it yourself...most, not ALL, which means that there are women out there who are content with their decision with whom it doesn't cause "chaos".

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Even in those rare cases where the woman is content with her decision in all aspects, and lives without hidden guilt and shame, it does not justify abortion.[/b]
Hm...looks like I was right.
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Murder is not the correct term for the woman. The last time I referred to abortion as murder was last summer. Even then, I don't believe I ever stated that it was due to malicious intents of the woman. If it is a murderous act, that burden should fall on the abortionist, not the woman (i.e., victim).[/b]
I know what your stance was on that. I understood your stance. I'm saying that even if we use the correct definitions, we do not use those terms on a day to day basis to describe something so emotional for many.
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I tend to think idealistically. I cannot live in a world where I accept tragedy as necessary.[/b]
Then you might want to move to a different planet. LOL! There is no Yin without Yang. There is no good without evil. It's essential to our survival to have a balance. We must have tragedy and hardships to understand what is good.

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In my eyes, we can help abortion become non-existant.[/b]
You say you think idealistically. Abortion being non-existent is not idealistic. Abortion will never become nonexistent because there will always be someone who will need it.

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Idealistic or not, it would be for the greater good of all people.[/b]
You cannot dictate what would be better for someone else emotional/physical and psychological well-being. Just because it makes you sleep better at night, it would not make the person going through the hardships sleep better at night. You would be putting more ppl in turmoil for your own conscience.
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  #13  
June 29th, 2007, 03:15 PM
*Aspen*
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Cece I'm not ignoring you, I just have to wait until after Kailey goes to bed. My thoughts get muddled in the abortion area because I don't have a sturdy stance yet so I have to think hard and I can't do that right now. LOL!
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  #15  
June 29th, 2007, 03:35 PM
*Aspen*
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I think they are in a state of denial, rather than of ignorance.

And yes, I agree that to an extent, it is just semantics. But I think the bigger picture encompasses alot more than just semantics. I think this debate touches the bigger picture.[/b]
Or maybe they are well-educated and have a well-thought out stance. Just because someone is of an opposing opinion, doesn't mean they are in denial or ignorant.

I honestly don't see the bigger picture in this thread. I think it's all semantics about using the right words to make a sucker punch.

(I'll comment on your other post later still)

ETA: Are you saying there are no emotions involved in birth whatsoever?
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  #17  
June 29th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Liz Liz is offline
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I am not saying that just because someone is of a differing opinion that they are automatically ignorant or don't have a well thought out stance. I am saying, that going by what I believe, if they truly know of all the facts (which I believe many on here do), and they truly have researched it, then they must be in denial in some way or another. I cannot wrap my brain around it any other way. If they are not ignorant to the procedure, then they must be in some form of denial, or.... they are just evil baby-haters!! lol, JK JK!!

See? So I am being nice when I say they are in denial!! I am giving them the benefit of the doubt!! [/b]
Well slap my a** and call me an evil baby-hater. I'm very well informed about what takes place during an abortion. I've seen the saline burn. I've seen the silent scream. And while many will want to rebute the photos/videos - I don't bother because the fact is, it doesn't matter. I don't disagree with the story they tell. In fact, if anything, I hear two sides of the story.

When I look at the photos, when I read the sites, when I watch the videos, my heartaches for BOTH the woman and child. I see a woman who more than likely found herself in an extremely unfortunate situation whether it be an unexpected pregnancy or the grief of a very ill child. I see a child, that most likely would have suffered a hundred fold if left in the situation it was in.

Denial is thinking that every child is adoptable, every woman can find her way through anything and our society has the resources available to support all the unwanted, unhealthy children. Denial is not browsing your state's foster children webpages and seeing the disabled children that are deemed "unadoptable" by most of society. Denial is a pro-life movement that is mostly composed of middle to upper-class Americans with all biological children or only adopting "healthy" babies. Denial is thinking adoption is an affordable option and easily available.

Rose colored glasses are nice. But I prefer crystal clear lenses.
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  #18  
June 29th, 2007, 04:49 PM
*Aspen*
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I am not saying that just because someone is of a differing opinion that they are automatically ignorant or don't have a well thought out stance. I am saying, that going by what I believe, if they truly know of all the facts (which I believe many on here do), and they truly have researched it, then they must be in denial in some way or another. I cannot wrap my brain around it any other way. If they are not ignorant to the procedure, then they must be in some form of denial, or.... they are just evil baby-haters!! lol, JK JK!!

See? So I am being nice when I say they are in denial!! I am giving them the benefit of the doubt!! [/b]
Well slap my a** and call me an evil baby-hater. I'm very well informed about what takes place during an abortion. I've seen the saline burn. I've seen the silent scream. And while many will want to rebute the photos/videos - I don't bother because the fact is, it doesn't matter. I don't disagree with the story they tell. In fact, if anything, I hear two sides of the story.

When I look at the photos, when I read the sites, when I watch the videos, my heartaches for BOTH the woman and child. I see a woman who more than likely found herself in an extremely unfortunate situation whether it be an unexpected pregnancy or the grief of a very ill child. I see a child, that most likely would have suffered a hundred fold if left in the situation it was in.

Denial is thinking that every child is adoptable, every woman can find her way through anything and our society has the resources available to support all the unwanted, unhealthy children. Denial is not browsing your state's foster children webpages and seeing the disabled children that are deemed "unadoptable" by most of society. Denial is a pro-life movement that is mostly composed of middle to upper-class Americans with all biological children or only adopting "healthy" babies. Denial is thinking adoption is an affordable option and easily available.

Rose colored glasses are nice. But I prefer crystal clear lenses.
[/b]
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  #20  
June 29th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Liz Liz is offline
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Oh, and you do know I was just kidding with the 'evil baby hater' comment, right?[/b]
Oh yes, hence the "slap my a** comment.

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ETA: I also want to add that I am not talking about being informed by the prolife propaganda. I believe that many of those prolife sites are just that, propaganda. BUT, some aren't and for the most part, I am talking about the actual medical procedure that cannot be influenced by either the prolife or prochoice stance. That is what I mean by being informed. Not by viewing stillbirth photos posed as victims of abortion. (However, I do believe the Silent Scream is accurate).[/b]
Yes, of course. Pictures, diagrams, I've read the procedures . . . I was just illustrating that I do know of the "horror" of abortion but I remain pro-choice. It's not a matter of denial.
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