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Partial Birth Abortions


Abortion Debate

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  #21  
February 17th, 2008, 09:38 AM
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Ron Paul (candidate for President) is an OB/GYN. When asked about the topic of abortion, he tells the story of an abortion (not performed by him) that was done at 8 months. The baby came out alive, so they drowned it. That is evil.

My opinion is that an abortion that is done at any point in pregnancy that is not done for medically necessary reasons is murder. Whether your 5 weeks along or 35 weeks along.

If you don't want a baby and you end up pregnant, give it up for adoption!!! My goodness there are people out there who have been trying for years and years to get pregnant and can't, and would love to adopt. And people are out their killing perfectly healthy children!
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  #22  
February 18th, 2008, 05:53 AM
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If you don't want a baby and you end up pregnant, give it up for adoption!!! My goodness there are people out there who have been trying for years and years to get pregnant and can't, and would love to adopt. And people are out their killing perfectly healthy children![/b]
In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but we're not in an ideal world and it's not that easy.

Some employers fire women when they get pregnant. Some women can't afford to be jobless and continue with a pregnancy, especially if they don't want it.

Some parents are less than supportive and kick their pregnant teenage daughters out. What do you expect these girls to do? Is it realistic or fair to expect them to carry a pregnancy to term?

And there are other circumstances under which continuing a pregnancy isn't the best possibility. The choice to abort shouldn't be taken away.

That said, partial birth abortions done for non-medical reasons are awful and should be outlawed.
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  #23  
February 18th, 2008, 07:19 AM
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If you don't want a baby and you end up pregnant, give it up for adoption!!! My goodness there are people out there who have been trying for years and years to get pregnant and can't, and would love to adopt. And people are out their killing perfectly healthy children![/b]
In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but we're not in an ideal world and it's not that easy.

Some employers fire women when they get pregnant. Some women can't afford to be jobless and continue with a pregnancy, especially if they don't want it.

Some parents are less than supportive and kick their pregnant teenage daughters out. What do you expect these girls to do? Is it realistic or fair to expect them to carry a pregnancy to term?

And there are other circumstances under which continuing a pregnancy isn't the best possibility. The choice to abort shouldn't be taken away.

That said, partial birth abortions done for non-medical reasons are awful and should be outlawed.
[/b]
I was more referring to if it was me. My opinion is that that is what should be done, but obviously not everyone would be willing/able to do that.
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  #24  
February 19th, 2008, 04:04 AM
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Well, since you said "If you don't want a baby..." I took it to mean you were speaking in general. I apologise for the assumption.
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  #25  
February 19th, 2008, 07:25 PM
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I can't see the point in which I'd have a late term abortion, but then again, that's the same for lots of folks who get late term abortions. The wife of a co-worker of my husbands had to get a late term abortion, and she certainly didn't predict it as something she'd ever do. I don't see it as something I'd do, but I also won't lie and say that if the circumstances arose where it'd be the best choice, I wouldn't do it. Truth is, I would do it in certain conditions, even if it wasn't my first choice.

I know a lot of stories circulate on the "truth" of late term abortions, "partial birth abortions," AL abortion, birthing abortion, or whatever the shock-jock term of the week for it is. I take most of them with a grain of salt, since I know a lot of folks have an interest in falsifying or lying about the procedure, and/or speak on the topic from a point of lack of education/information. Lots of people do that with abortion in general. I had one woman try to convince me that IUDs were stuck into the noses of the fetus so as to drag them out during the second trimester. And that fetuses were sucking their thumbs by 48 hours past conception. The stories of "I know a girl who knew a girl who had a friend who... (Insert shock story here)" are a dime a dozen.

I think, as always, the truth of the situation and scenario lies somewhere between the politician who knew of a case where a late term abortion was done and a baby drowned (though I question why if he did hear of such a thing, why he didn't report it to the proper authorities as opposed to use it as part of a political campaign to garner sympathy for people of like minds...) and the doctors who say it never happens and doctors at regular hospitals never perform it in any situation, even emergency situations.
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  #26  
February 20th, 2008, 12:14 PM
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Well, since you said "If you don't want a baby..." I took it to mean you were speaking in general. I apologise for the assumption.[/b]
No, don't apologize, I worded it badly. My fault.
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  #27  
February 20th, 2008, 04:17 PM
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I can't even fathom a reason to have this done. I'm all for a woman's right to choose, but this seems so inhumane to me.
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  #28  
March 13th, 2008, 07:12 PM
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I don't agree with partial birth abortions unless someone's going to die with out it. Many women choose partial birth abortions for children who are afflicted with diseases that will end their lives prematurely, but not necessarily immediately after birth, if the disease was not picked up on soon enough. I know my aunt has had one, as the baby had tay sachs and she'd already burried two daughters and they didn't pick it up on the screening soon enough. They went with IVF after that so they could have only boys.

However that is the only case that I believe in it.

If the woman is going to die, if the baby has gone far enough to possibly survive, induce or give a c-section, avoid the partial birth if at all possible.
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  #29  
March 14th, 2008, 06:53 AM
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I loathe all types of abortions, but I find this one especially heartless and nauseating. I will make no bones about it. I think it is absolutely sickening & monstrous. We are talking about a baby who could have been taken by C-section and been totally fine, and instead the baby is murdered ruthlessly. Even if there is something "wrong" with the baby, I think it's never OK. My goodness, since when is it OK to kill people who have something "wrong" with them?

I'm totally & completely against it.

If anyone is thinking about doing, I will raise your baby, or find someone who will! (not kidding)
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  #30  
March 14th, 2008, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Even if there is something "wrong" with the baby, I think it's never OK. My goodness, since when is it OK to kill people who have something "wrong" with them?
If anyone is thinking about doing, I will raise your baby, or find someone who will! (not kidding)[/b]

Tara Jo, there are cases where the something wrong with the baby, is going to kill the baby, or make it suffer. How would you ask a mother who knows their child is suffering while in the womb, and that upon birth it's only going to get 100x worse, to carry the baby and give birth when they themselves cannot bare to have their child in pain? Parents often choose PB rather than induction, because there is a good chance the child will live a short time, but will be in extreme pain. These parents would love to have their own baby if they could, but they can't so they make the hardest decision in the world.

I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice and that's probably the main difference between me and many people. I don't want people to have abortions, but should they need one, whether medically or personally, I think they should have access to them.

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  #31  
March 14th, 2008, 11:30 AM
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Even if there is something "wrong" with the baby, I think it's never OK. My goodness, since when is it OK to kill people who have something "wrong" with them?
If anyone is thinking about doing, I will raise your baby, or find someone who will! (not kidding)[/b]
Tara Jo, there are cases where the something wrong with the baby, is going to kill the baby, or make it suffer. How would you ask a mother who knows their child is suffering while in the womb, and that upon birth it's only going to get 100x worse, to carry the baby and give birth when they themselves cannot bare to have their child in pain? Parents often choose PB rather than induction, because there is a good chance the child will live a short time, but will be in extreme pain. These parents would love to have their own baby if they could, but they can't so they make the hardest decision in the world.

I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice and that's probably the main difference between me and many people. I don't want people to have abortions, but should they need one, whether medically or personally, I think they should have access to them.
[/b]
I think that cases you're talking about where the baby will be in extreme pain from a birth defect are probably not the norm (I could be wrong). If that was the case, though, I would obviously give the baby pain-killer to make him/her comfortable until the end. I would hold the baby if possible and comfort him/her.

I don't agree with the logic that it's OK to kill someone if they are suffering and will "die anyway." Especially in America were we have access to all sorts of medical care & pain meds, there is no excuse for taking it upon yourself to kill another human being. It's not a situation where either the child is in extreme pain, or we kill it, anyway. We can take the pain away.

I think your logic is very dangerous. What if a child was born and only after the birth did they realize something was "wrong" with him/her and the baby would not live long. Is it OK then to kill it?

It only makes sense if you are going to be consistent with your logic. If you believe that women should have the "choice" to kill their baby right before it's born (she could go into labor within 24 hrs, for all we know), then why shouldn't she have the choice to kill that same baby after it's born? It's just a matter of location. Are you willing to say that's OK? (That's exactly what Barack Obama has said he believes should be the case. He calls it "postpartum abortion." I know other pro-choicers are willing to go that far, too. They are the consistent ones, as frightening as that is.)

I think PB abortion is a hard choice for some people because they know in their heart it's wrong, and they are led to believe for whatever reason that they are being merciful, as ironic as that is.

If that happened to me (God forbid), I would want to take the pain away for my baby, and hold him/her. I would like to see my baby alive and love him/her while they were here. God is in control and gives life and takes life. It's nobody's right to take the life of an innocent person... especially in the name of "mercy."
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  #32  
March 21st, 2008, 01:54 PM
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You know, the sick thing is that if I strapped a dog down to a table and drilled a hole in its head and sucked the brains out. I would be arrested and PETA would be all over it in a second. It would be all over the news, I would be hated by everybody. But this kind of thing is done to human babies and there are no legal concequences for them (women that get it done, or Dr.s that perform them). No human deserves this, even if they "would suffer" or be unable to survive outside the womb. It baffles me how people think God is cruel for creating hell, and then turn around and defend abortion in any form. At least be consistant.
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  #33  
April 1st, 2008, 07:34 AM
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What if a child was born and only after the birth did they realize something was "wrong" with him/her and the baby would not live long. Is it OK then to kill it?[/b]
My husband works in a hospital, and in his position, he sees the worst of the worst of the worst off of people. One of the things I think few people realize is that there is an option for parents to allow a baby to die after being born with a terminal condition or illness. It's called "comfort only care," and it quite literally means that the child shouldn't have any life-saving measures taken to prolong it's life. The only care to be given is for comfort-purposes only, and there is nothing to do but wait for the child to die. This is not done in little country hospitals, but in major hospitals everywhere in the US. It's not an uncommon practice.

In cases where the child is born prematurely, or with a medical issue that was undiagnosed while the woman was pregnant, comfort only care is utilized frequently. And even with all the pain meds we have available, very rarely is it enough to offset the pain that is felt by the child, unless it's given in a dosage to make the child flacidity and consciousness... At which case, the child is alive, in pain, but non-interactive... Just a doll that can feel and will experience nothing positive out of life, not even feel or see the love of its parents.

Quote:
(That's exactly what Barack Obama has said he believes should be the case. He calls it "postpartum abortion." I know other pro-choicers are willing to go that far, too. They are the consistent ones, as frightening as that is.)[/b]
I have never seen Obama say he advocates anything like what you describe. I'd like to see where you found where he said that he believes in "postpartum abortion." Really, that term is an oxymoron in and of itself. One cannot possibly have a postpartum abortion... The only time I've ever heard the term even used was in "South Park."

Quote:
If that happened to me (God forbid), I would want to take the pain away for my baby, and hold him/her. I would like to see my baby alive and love him/her while they were here. God is in control and gives life and takes life. It's nobody's right to take the life of an innocent person... especially in the name of "mercy."[/b]
I think if you saw one of these babies in this situation, you'd change your tune. It's not a situation where you hold a beautiful, cooing baby as it drifts off into a peaceful sleep. Most of the time, the baby is screaming a horrible scream the likes of which you've never heard (or cannot scream at all), cannot be touched or held because to do so would cause pain or because the state of the baby is such that it just can't be touched, is deformed with organs visible, and turning purple from crying and screaming and from pain, and looks to be having countless, brain rattling seizures where the baby flips so that it's head touches it's feet, or they have actual seizures that are so forceful they break their own necks. In cases where that's not happening, the baby is a non-conscious, flacid, limp doll, which still can't be held, and will never open its eyes to see anything.

In a situation like this, a lot of people have the realization that the biggest act of love that one can carry out is to set aside their own desire to hold onto the life of a baby that won't stay and where every moment is immesurable agony, and just let the baby go. You think it's ironic to let something die in the name of mercy, where I bet those people would find it ironic or selfish to encourage suffering and pain in the name of love, so the parents can hold a baby.

Really, nobody can ever really know what they'll do in this situation until they're there. It's so easy to say that you'd never, ever, ever, ever do it, but when you see a baby who's brain is divided in half by it's own skull on an ultrasound, and then you hear the fate for that child... It's enough of a shock to change opinions.
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  #34  
April 1st, 2008, 07:44 AM
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You know, the sick thing is that if I strapped a dog down to a table and drilled a hole in its head and sucked the brains out. I would be arrested and PETA would be all over it in a second. It would be all over the news, I would be hated by everybody. But this kind of thing is done to human babies and there are no legal concequences for them (women that get it done, or Dr.s that perform them). No human deserves this, even if they "would suffer" or be unable to survive outside the womb. It baffles me how people think God is cruel for creating hell, and then turn around and defend abortion in any form. At least be consistant.[/b]
In my part of the US, dogs are routinely put down for health issues, or space issues. Around here, if a pet isn't wanted, they take it to the pound. It could have been a loyal pet for years, but once at the pound, if it's not adopted in 48 hours, it's killed. My MIL put down her cat because it had diabetes. My family pet was put down because she had a cancerous tumor on the spinal cord, and she could no longer move, control her bowels, or have a day where she wasn't yowling in pain. Maybe this isn't done where you are, but pets around here are routinely put down for things as serious as cancer, or things as benign as simply not being wanted anymore. It's one of those things that nobody likes, very few enjoy, but is a needed evil.

Personally, I don't see how a dog is the same as a fetus and therefore a comparible situation.
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  #35  
June 19th, 2008, 10:00 AM
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I only believe in abortions past viability (24 weeks) if it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.
I only believe in abortions past 13-14 weeks (not sure what exact time frame yet) if there are factors such as rape, incest, abuse, maternal medical problems, etc.
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  #36  
June 19th, 2008, 02:43 PM
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I only believe in abortions past viability (24 weeks) if it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.[/b]
Unfortunately they do happen later than this due to many reasons. I know that a patient of mine didn't get an u/s until 26 weeks. When she finally got it, they realized that the baby would not survive due to massive deformities and abnormalities. It was the hardest thing that she had to do. Her husband was in Afghanistan and was able to come home and be with his wife while they delivered. They understood that no life saving measures would take place and the baby died within 90 minutes.

I find it hard to believe that a healthy baby was delivered and then drowned. When a baby is born early, usually no life sustaining measures will take place. But to drown a baby? I have a hard time believing this is true.

I have seen many terminations and none were this "partial birth abortion" type. They were all delivered vaginally and no heroic measures were taken to save the fetus.
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  #37  
July 10th, 2008, 07:12 AM
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Why is this legal other than severe medical reasons? Why couldn't one just deliver the baby (even if it is sick) and let mother nature run its course? I don't think I could live with myself making that kind of choice.
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  #38  
July 10th, 2008, 07:18 AM
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If you don't want a baby and you end up pregnant, give it up for adoption!!! My goodness there are people out there who have been trying for years and years to get pregnant and can't, and would love to adopt. And people are out their killing perfectly healthy children![/b]
In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but we're not in an ideal world and it's not that easy.

Some employers fire women when they get pregnant. Some women can't afford to be jobless and continue with a pregnancy, especially if they don't want it.

Some parents are less than supportive and kick their pregnant teenage daughters out. What do you expect these girls to do? Is it realistic or fair to expect them to carry a pregnancy to term?

And there are other circumstances under which continuing a pregnancy isn't the best possibility. The choice to abort shouldn't be taken away.

That said, partial birth abortions done for non-medical reasons are awful and should be outlawed.
[/b]

I am prochoice. However, I was kicked out when I was 16 and became pregnant. I was fired (and later not hired at other places) for being pregnant. I scraped and stole and went on welfare to provide for myself and my son. It was quite possibly the hardest thing I have ever done in my entire life. I personally, could never abort unless the baby was very very very sick....but after living that life, I think it is only fair to give other women the choice.

But again....unless the fetus is severely ill....i could never ever condone this kind of abortion. I agree with you that they should be outlawed for elective reasons.
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  #39  
July 11th, 2008, 08:26 AM
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This subject caught my attention because here,abortion was just made legal a couple of years ago,and now they want to make "late" abortions legal too (abortions done right up to the end of the second trimester).
I cannot and DO NOT want to beleive that a mother,a woman,could do that to her unborn child (when the baby is big/strong enough to live outside the womb)..her own flesh and blood.
I saw a documentary about this a while back and hoped to god that it would never be legal here..and now look.These abortions (the ones done so late in pregnancy) are not only reserved to save the mother,or for terrible melformed babys..they are also done just because,to perfectly healthy babys that could live outside the womb if only given the chance.

I consider this murder-a grusome,cruel and inhumane way to KILL another human being!.I wouldent let a dog die like that,let alone a baby.Just because the baby isnt born yet,it doesnt mean this isnt murder and it doesnt make it ok.To kill someone is NOT a "medical procedure" if you ask me.
It sickens me and breaks my heart to think that babys die like this,whilst still in the body of the one person in the world that is supposed to protect and love them..their mother.
How can women (those that have had this done) allow such a thing? How can they live with themselfs after having thier baby killed just because they could?
Dear god..it sends shivers down my spine.What kind of person does it take to be OK with something like this?
I just had my daughter 2 and a half months ago and this subject is VERY upsetting for me...

When I think that things like this go on in the world,I just want to hold my baby and let her know that I would die for her,that I love her more than anything in the world.

Not only should this be illegal,but those that have already had it done should rott in jail if you ask me.
If a parent sent a hitman to kill her child,would she not be sent to jail? To me this is the same thing..lock them in a cell and throw away the key!


ETA:
I just wanted to explain that the reason that I feel this way,is because I cant beleive that a woman (no matter how cold) could kill her baby after feeling him/her move inside her,watching her tummy grow etc etc
The only explaination is the hate this woman must feel towwards the baby-the rejection,the indifference..I just cant think of another reason for such a violent,cruel and terrible death.
I dont care what the situation may be...there is no exuse for such cruelty.If she had no money,she could give the child up for adoption (after all,this "abortion isnt exactly free is it? She may as well save the money and give birth!!),She could have given birth at home and then left the baby at a hospital (anything before killing it this way) if she never wanted the baby,she should have had an aborton the moment she found out she was pregnant...There are MANY MANY options before hiring someone to kill the baby.
I find it hard NOT to judge in this case,because to me,there is never a good enough exuse for murder.
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  #40  
July 14th, 2008, 05:01 PM
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My question would be why keep this poor childs head inside? Its ok if the head is still inside the mother, but once it comes out, its murder? I don't get that kind of logic.
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