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Partial Birth Abortions


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  #41  
July 25th, 2008, 06:18 PM
I_Run_with_Scissors
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Normally im pro choice, personally i could never have an abortion of any kind, but who am i to say what is right or wrong for everyone, i just dont think its my place to decide

anyways even as pro choice that sickens me
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  #42  
August 8th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Little Mrs Sunshine
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i dont agree with this. just give birth and give the baby up for adoption. its unnecessarily killing an unborn child... or half born child I should say...
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  #43  
August 9th, 2008, 09:21 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
My question would be why keep this poor childs head inside? Its ok if the head is still inside the mother, but once it comes out, its murder? I don't get that kind of logic.[/b]
Other than in cases where the head may be too big to deliver I completely agree - but I also think that once the baby is out they are not allowed to kill it...not in my understanding anyway...and when a large head isn't the reason it is kept inside, I think it is only done to legally protect themselves.

To the PP who said that Barak Obama is not in favor of this or postpartum abortion...here is where that coems from:
Quote:
Yes, I know... Your reaction was similar to mine: "Good Lord! What's next: Endorsing postpartum abortion?" Will this be next?

"When you get right down to it," the Illinois Senator said before an audience at the recent Stem Cells R Us Annual Convention, "What difference does two or three minutes inside or outside the womb really make? One's 'late-term' and the other's 'postpartum'. Who's to say if the postpartum fetus is truly viable? Postpartum fetuses die all the time for all manner of reasons..."[/b]
source
This man (Erik Rush) has had this article published a TON online...and in many cases the last question before the "quote" (Will this be next) is completely left out, leading people to believe that he is actually quoting Obama - which he is NOT. No doubt Obama IS pro-choice - he has never (and I can't imagine will ever) made a stance regarding "postpartum abortion". He is in favor of all areas of pro-choice including late-term abortion & partial birth abortion. He says all kinds of nice touchy feely stuff about how women have the right to choose & do so with their spouse, their clergy, etc & come to such a deep & profound decision themselves, etc, etc...but in the end - he is pro-choice on down the line & he has a few ratings to indicate his stance based on past voting: (voting data was taken from here)
Quote:
Obama scores 0% by the NRLC on abortion issues

OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2006 NRLC scores as follows:

* 0% - 15%: pro-choice stance (approx. 174 members)
* 16%- 84%: mixed record on abortion (approx. 101 members)
* 85%-100%: pro-life stance (approx. 190 members)[/b]
What is the NRLC? - the National Right to Life www.nrlc.org

Quote:
Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

* 2007: 100 percent
* 2006: 100 percent
* 2005: 100 percent

Source: NARAL voting record, www.ProChoiceAmerica.org Jan 1, 2008[/b]
Who is Naral?
Quote:
NARAL Pro-Choice America was conceived in 1969 as the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws. When the Supreme Court legalized abortion in 1973, NARAL changed its name to the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League. With 500,000 members and 36 state affiliates, the group today lobbies on behalf of pro-abortion legislation at the state and federal levels, conducting opinion polls, mobilizing pro-abortion activists, and producing a yearly publication titled A State-by-State Review of Reproductive Rights, which monitors developments in abortion legislation in each American state. Central to this work is NARAL's two-tiered mission to defend legalized abortion-on-demand, and to defeat all efforts to limit the procedure.[/b]
I hope that adds some clarity as to where Obama stands on the issues & where he does not & why some people were mislead to believe he somehow believes in "postpartum abortion".

-------

As far as I am concerned I do not believe that a child should ever undergo such a thing unless there are literally no other options - and that meaning such as having a head too large to deliver. Personally I do not believe I would even do it then because I know that c-section is an option. I also know that if there is ANY chance I would be able to hold a living child, a c-section is often the gentlest birth for a child with severe issues. For me, having a c-section to hold a baby that lived 5 minutes is WORTH the c-section. I do not think for me a sick child would ever be a reason to abort since I feel that it is not for me to say how much discomfort or pain a child will be in & there is a LOT that can be done medically to control that. I shudder to think that anyone could potentially end a life that has a purpose & may be a much better life than the "experts" predict. I know someone personally that was told to abort basically her whole pg since her baby would never make it full term (due to heart issues with the baby) and then she was told that if she insisted on delivering him he would never make it through delivery - then she was told he wouldn't live long, then not to a year, he is 12 now & after a few surgeries & a pace-maker he is expected to possibly need another heart in his lifetime, but he is expected to be FINE. I also have a sister that was told that her son had downs syndrome - and he does not. I just would not make such a serious decision based on things like this..... they will not always be right & I will never believe that it is better to abort than to love them for however long they are here.
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  #44  
August 9th, 2008, 09:44 PM
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I havent read through all the post cause I dont want to get sick more than I am, but about partial abortions I dont understand something. How is having one a benefit if the mothers life is in danger? Why dont they just deliver the child? How is killing it like that helping the mother?
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  #45  
August 18th, 2008, 12:54 PM
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I don't believe in abortion especially partial birth abortion.

I felt since so much was written about what Obama says and doesn't say, that someone should at least put up his voting records as only fair. Well if you can actually call it voting.... In my opinion voting 'present' is worse than voting yes or no. I mean either have the guts to vote one way or the other. Voting present only saves your butt in an election.....


"1997 Votes

SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Senate approved bill 44-7, with five senators voting present, including Obama.

HB 382 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. House version, passed Illinois State Senate, adopted as law. Under the bill, doctors who perform partial-birth abortions could be sent to prison for one to three years. The woman would not be held liable.

2001 Votes

HB 1900 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed 38-10, with nine present votes, including Obama.

SB 562 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed Senate 39-7, with 11 present votes, including Obama.

SB 1093 Law to protect Liveborn children. Bill passed 34-6, with 12 present, including Obama.

SB 1094 Bill to protect children born as result of induced labor abortion. Bill passed 33-6, with 13 present, including Obama.

SB 1095 Bill defining "born alive" defines "born-alive infant" to include infant "born alive at any stage of development." Bill passed 34-5, with nine present, including Obama."

That was taken from here.

SB 1095 states "Amends the Statute on Statutes. Defines "born-alive infant" to
include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born
alive at any stage of development. Defines "born alive" to mean the
complete expulsion or extraction from the mother of an infant, at any
stage of development, who after that expulsion or extraction breathes
or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite
movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical
cord has been cut and regardless of whether the expulsion or
extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean
section, or induced abortion. Effective immediately.
SENATE AMENDMENT NO. 1.
Provides that a live child born as a result of an abortion shall
be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate
protection under the law. "

SB 1094 states" Creates the Induced Birth Infant Liability Act. Contains only a
short title provision.
SENATE AMENDMENT NO. 1.
Adds reference to:
30 ILCS 105/5.545 new
Provides that it is the intent of the General Assembly to protect
the life of a child born alive as the result of an induced labor
abortion. Provides that a parent of the child or the public guardian
of the county in which a child was born alive after an induced labor
abortion or any other abortion has a cause of action against any
hospital, health care facility or health care provider that fails to
provide medical care for the child after birth. Amends the State
Finance Act. Creates the Neonatal Care and Perinatal Hospice Fund.
Provides that, if a child does not survive, any remaining proceeds
of an action shall be deposited into the Fund. Provides that the
moneys in the Fund shall be used, subject to appropriation, for
neonatal care or perinatal hospice. "

Obama voted present on both of those bills. To me voting present is wasting the time of the people who elected you in a position.
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  #46  
September 3rd, 2008, 12:38 PM
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I am pro-choice, until any time, for any number of times.

I believe a woman has the right to abort whenever, and however often, she wants. I don't believe the fetus is a child or has the rights of a child until they are born.

I personally would not abort past the first trimester... but I have known women how honestly DID NOT know they were pregnant until they were 6 months gone. They kept the pregnancies, but I do not believe they should have to be forced to keep it if they hadn't wanted to, just because they didn't realize they were pregnant before the cutoff for aborting.
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  #47  
September 3rd, 2008, 12:52 PM
BrandiiNikkii.*'s Avatar Mommy to Girls ♥
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I am NOT for abortion in anyway but this way is the worst.

This is just pain sick & horrible.
I dont know how anyone can have it done or how a doctor could even do it.
The poor child could live outside & yet they stab it threw its brain & other things to kill it!

HORRIBLE & CRUEL & just pain SICK!

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  #48  
September 13th, 2008, 03:21 AM
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One thing I find very strange about partial birth abotions is the following: Why is it not a living human if you cannot see their head and thus ok to kill it.. when if you do see their head and kill it, it's called murder. The difference of a few inches, how can that determin the difference of humanity? How can doctors who have sworn to do no harm do this? How can they justify it only because "it's not born yet" how can those few inches make such a difference?

I think it's SICK and shows me how selfish our society has become. Partial Birth Abortion is MURDER. The Baby feels it, and dies a horrific death.

God have mercy on us for what we do!

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  #49  
September 13th, 2008, 06:43 AM
Gina1978's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
One thing I find very strange about partial birth abotions is the following: Why is it not a living human if you cannot see their head and thus ok to kill it.. when if you do see their head and kill it, it's called murder. The difference of a few inches, how can that determin the difference of humanity? How can doctors who have sworn to do no harm do this? How can they justify it only because "it's not born yet" how can those few inches make such a difference?

I think it's SICK and shows me how selfish our society has become. Partial Birth Abortion is MURDER. The Baby feels it, and dies a horrific death.

God have mercy on us for what we do![/b]
AMEN!
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  #50  
September 17th, 2008, 06:25 PM
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Maybe its done with the head still in because its easier to get out? Either way, its sick. sick. sick.
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  #51  
September 17th, 2008, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
What I know about it is...the child is full term & "ready" to come out. They pull the baby out feet first, and keep the babies head inside the womb, until it dies. I believe this what happens...anyone want to correct me on this?[/b]
is there no other way to do a late term abortion....I don't even know how these doctors can stand to do such a thing...
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  #52  
September 23rd, 2008, 02:20 PM
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Im NOT understanding, if a woman is that late in her pregnancy and she is giving birth, WHY abort? why NOT give the baby up for adoption if she doesnt want it? She already carried the baby, so I am not understanding WHY on earth would she straight up KILL and that is what it is, her baby? It is EXTREMELY HORRIBLE how some people act and it is a total SHAME an innocent baby suffers for their so called mothers heartlessness!!! DISGUSTING!!!
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  #53  
September 24th, 2008, 09:19 PM
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Animals are "put down" as humanly as possible. They are given a shot and go to sleep and their heart stops. They are not strapped down while their skull is stabbed and brains sucked out and skull crushed.




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  #54  
September 25th, 2008, 11:41 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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I am completely 100% pro-life. I believe life has value from the moment of conception until the moment of natural death. I find any abortion to be just as offensive as the next. It sometimes bothers me the way people jump all over partial birth abortion and talk about how sick and horrible it is - why is it more horrible than any other abortion? Is it, as a PP said, that it so inhumane? Do you think that abortions done earlier are not painful? they most certainly are! Why would someone who does not value a baby's life all of a sudden value it just because the body is born?

I find Katastic's position to be very consistant:

"I am pro-choice, until any time, for any number of times.

I believe a woman has the right to abort whenever, and however often, she wants. I don't believe the fetus is a child or has the rights of a child until they are born."

While I find it to be a very sad and disturbing position, at least it is consistant in its disregard for human life.
So many people claim to be pro-life, or claim to be "personally" pro-life or say they are pro-life except in certain circumstances. Either an unborn life is worth protecting or it isn't. Why should I be more horrified if a baby is murdered at 40 weeks gestation rather than 25 weeks? just because the baby is bigger? Just because they baby would have an easier time surviving on its own? Is the murder of a one month old not as shocking or as horrible as the murder of a one year old simply because she has been alive for longer and is bigger?

I agree with all of you that partial birth abortion is horrible but I personally think ALL abortion is horrible and am not surprised at all that we have gotten to a point in this country where we would do such a thing. We don't value life in this country so why not kill perfectly healthy babies as they are being born??
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  #55  
September 25th, 2008, 06:36 PM
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I'm against abortion in general-- but IF someone didn't want their baby WHY on this earth would you wait until it is a viable human being?! Why not get it done as soon as you find out you're pregnant? (I'm still pro-life-- but sheesh!) Partial Birth Abortion disgusts me to no end.

Not only that-- but the baby is already ALMOST completely OUT! Why not pull it out another 6 inches, and adopt the baby out if you don't want it?! This saddens me so much, I can't take it!
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  #56  
September 28th, 2008, 03:47 AM
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"I am completely 100% pro-life. I believe life has value from the moment of conception until the moment of natural death. I find any abortion to be just as offensive as the next. It sometimes bothers me the way people jump all over partial birth abortion and talk about how sick and horrible it is - why is it more horrible than any other abortion? "


I agree. I think part of the reason it *seems* worse than other abortions is because the baby is practically delivered this way kwim?
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  #57  
October 3rd, 2008, 12:18 PM
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"I think if you saw one of these babies in this situation, you'd change your tune. It's not a situation where you hold a beautiful, cooing baby as it drifts off into a peaceful sleep. Most of the time, the baby is screaming a horrible scream the likes of which you've never heard (or cannot scream at all), cannot be touched or held because to do so would cause pain or because the state of the baby is such that it just can't be touched, is deformed with organs visible, and turning purple from crying and screaming and from pain, and looks to be having countless, brain rattling seizures where the baby flips so that it's head touches it's feet, or they have actual seizures that are so forceful they break their own necks. In cases where that's not happening, the baby is a non-conscious, flacid, limp doll, which still can't be held, and will never open its eyes to see anything.

In a situation like this, a lot of people have the realization that the biggest act of love that one can carry out is to set aside their own desire to hold onto the life of a baby that won't stay and where every moment is immesurable agony, and just let the baby go. You think it's ironic to let something die in the name of mercy, where I bet those people would find it ironic or selfish to encourage suffering and pain in the name of love, so the parents can hold a baby.

Really, nobody can ever really know what they'll do in this situation until they're there. It's so easy to say that you'd never, ever, ever, ever do it, but when you see a baby who's brain is divided in half by it's own skull on an ultrasound, and then you hear the fate for that child... It's enough of a shock to change opinions. "



So, you're saying that sticking scissors in the back of their head, thus killing them and sucking their BRAINS out, makes their condition more enjoyable?? I don't think so. I don't care HOW MUCH PAIN your child is in, thats YOUR child. If they HAVE to be "put out of their misery", do it in a humane way, with an injection that wouldn't be painful. Not jamming scissors in their skulls. Wow.

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  #58  
October 5th, 2008, 09:12 AM
Gina1978's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
If they HAVE to be "put out of their misery", do it in a humane way, with an injection that wouldn't be painful. Not jamming scissors in their skulls. Wow.[/b]
Exactly!
If something is seriously wrong (and finding out late in your pregnancy means a partial birth/abortion) and the child has to be put to "sleep",why cant they find a way that causes the baby no pain or suffering?
Even criminals are put to death using the lethal injection (which is said to put them to sleep before stopping their heart so that they dont suffer).Why should an inocent unborn baby suffer such an awful death????
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  #59  
October 5th, 2008, 10:53 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Quote:
If they HAVE to be "put out of their misery", do it in a humane way, with an injection that wouldn't be painful. Not jamming scissors in their skulls. Wow.[/b]
Exactly!
If something is seriously wrong (and finding out late in your pregnancy means a partial birth/abortion) and the child has to be put to "sleep",why cant they find a way that causes the baby no pain or suffering?
Even criminals are put to death using the lethal injection (which is said to put them to sleep before stopping their heart so that they dont suffer).Why should an inocent unborn baby suffer such an awful death????
[/b]
I have to say that I STRONGLY disagree. I understand that both of you are saying there are more merciful ways to kill someone but I find it very disturbing. We put dogs to sleep - we put horses to sleep - you don't KILL a person to put them out of their misery. Even the euthanasia laws that have been passed are only allowed when the person themselves decides they want to die. I am against euthanasia but recognize that those laws don't even go so far as to give ANOTHER PERSON the right to decide to kill someone.
If you can put a brand new baby "out of their misery" why stop there? why not a toddler? why not a ten year old? It seems like if parents now should have the right to decide if their child is in too much pain to live and should be killed than that decision should continue as long as that child is in their care right??

There is a huge difference between allowing somebody to die and then actively killing them. And I do recognize that if you are going to kill someone there is difference between a violent murder and a mercy killing but I just wanted to point out that both is still killing and even with how far our society has slipped the general believe is still that you can't kill even out of "mercy"
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  #60  
October 5th, 2008, 11:33 AM
Gina1978's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I understand that both of you are saying there are more merciful ways to kill someone but I find it very disturbing.[/b]
Im not saying that ..if you go back to my first post on this debate,you´ll see that I stongly disaree with this procedure.To me,its murder and I dont see how any woman could think its ok what ever her situation.If I had a say in the matter,the women who have this done should be arrested as they leave the clinic,and the doctors who actually do this should have a teaste of their own medicine.
What I meant with my last post is that I dont know how partial birth abortions are legal,because even criminals are killed in what the "profesionals" call a humane manner,So how can a doctor or mother-to-be look at this procedure and not think that its cruel and in-humane.kwim?

To me,the fact that its even an option to have this done so late in a pregnancy is disturbing to me.
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