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Partial Birth Abortions


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  #1  
October 6th, 2007, 05:46 PM
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I know where I stand on this one. Where do you stand, are you for it or against it?

Sorry if this was posted before...I just didn't see anything about it. I really don't know much about this topic, I heard something about it once, but that was it. I really didn't want to google it cause god only knows what horrible things I might find. Does anyone know anything really about it?

What I know about it is...the child is full term & "ready" to come out. They pull the baby out feet first, and keep the babies head inside the womb, until it dies. I believe this what happens...anyone want to correct me on this?
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  #2  
October 7th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Well, I'm against abortion in general but understand that it's a legal option women have.
However, this particular type of abortion sickens me. I don't refer to abortions as murder as some pro-lifers do, but in this particular case, I cannot find another word to describe it.
Here's a diagram of a partial birth abortion, but a warning- it's VERY disturbing, especially for those who don't believe in abortion.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html

Again, if there's a dire medical need and the mother's life in is danger (that is to say, if she continues her pregnancy she'll die, no doubt about it), I'd support abortion, maybe even this type of abortion. But I'd never support a woman having this type of abortion simply because she changed her mind or is inconvinient to her. Although I don't support abortion as a birth control method in the general sense, I can understand why a woman will think it's her best option and wouldn't pass judgment on her. But to me, partial birth abortions are something different.

Sharon
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  #3  
October 7th, 2007, 05:58 PM
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It is disturbing.
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  #4  
October 8th, 2007, 07:16 AM
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As far as I know, aren't these illegal now unless there is a medical necessity for it?
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  #5  
October 8th, 2007, 04:52 PM
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Well first off - there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". This is an incorrect emotion based "phrase" that is NOT tied to ANY medical or abortion procedure. There is NO such medical procedure as a partial birth abortion. The phrase is PURE propiganda DESIGNED only to obtain an emotional response and make people falsly believe that healthy, viable, living children who are half born are being slaughtered as they slide out of the vagina. That simply is NOT true.

The real procedure is called a D and X and 99.9 percent of the time it is used on ALREADY DEAD deformed babies when MEDICALLY NESSICARY abortions in the second and third trimester are required to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that is severly ill or dead. Lets not forget that later term abortion is already legally regulated - and illegal in most places past a certian point - except in cases where dangers to the mother or fetus are present. Women aren't just going around slaying thier 8 month old fetuses because they woke up one morning and decided they no lnoger wanted to be pregnant - so they get D and X's.

As I understand it the fetus is already dead in-utero before the abortion procedure begins. Live baby's aren't shredded and ripped limb from limb alive and kicking and screaming as most PL would like to have you believe. The D and X procedure is used to preserve the body of the fetus - so that the parents can have a body to bury, grieve over, and get closure. A D and E is a similar procedure that can be used in later term abortions - but it destroys the body of the fetus - not allowing the parents oppertunity to grieve. The ONLY other way to remove the fetus intact is via c-section which can be DEADLY to the mother and which has MUCH MORE SVERE risks, a longer healing time, and can cause INFERTILITY and reproductive organ loss due to infection, hemorage exc. Should women have to face becoming sterile so they can grieve the loss of a wanted baby and have a body to bury? Or should they have no baby to grieve and no funeral because others want to make D and X's illegal (with out understanding what they are) but are fine with D and E's to save the life of the mother. It makes no sence. Both procedures accomplish the same thing - yet people are agianst D and X's because they misunderstand what they are. Forcing women into life risking MAJOR abdominal surgery that will FOREVER alter thier bodies - because a third party who has NO connection to the pregnancy and who doesn't have all the facts about the procedure and it's benifits - wants D and X's to be illegal based on thier emotional attachments is idiotic IMO.

Situations which might require a D and X are severe hydrocephulus. These Hydrocephulus fetuses are usually brain dead, brain damaged, will never be concious, will never have functioning brains or bodies, or CAN NOT survive on thier own with out the life support of another (the womans body or a machine). Hydro fetuses will almost always die - perhaps painfully and slowly - after they leave thier life support systems. They usually can not survive on thier own. Live birth for these babies is not an option. Hydro is a defect that CAN NOT be detected until well into the second trimester. Neither early aboriton OR birth are options. For most women the BEST option is a D and X which is 1. safe with fewer risks then a c-section OR attempted birth (which could kill the woman as the head is so swollen that it will damage her birth canal or become stuck) and 2. which allowed the woman closure, the bond with the body of her child, to experience her child, to meet her child, to have a funeral for her child, and to say goodbye.
Birth is not an option because hydro baby's have swelling of the brain. Thier heads can not fit through the birth canal with out causing serious harm or even death to thier mothers. This is why the skull of the ALREADY DEAD hydro baby has to be decompressed to allow it to pass through the birth canal. If the skull is not "crushed" the dead fetus will become stuck in the womans body causing great damage or even death.

D and X's are medically nessicary - and if not absalutley nessicary ( I admit that there are other options like D and E and C-section) then often in the best intrest of the patient. Often time D and X is the procedure that will cause the WOMAN the LEAST HARM both physically, emotionally, psycologically exc. Why should a procedure that has been deemed in a patients best intrest by a professional be immoral or illegal because of a third partys misunderstandings and emotionally based arguments.




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  #6  
October 8th, 2007, 05:01 PM
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Professional doctors and nurses have stated that there are partial birth abortions and not just used when the child is deemed as dead or brain dead.
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  #7  
October 8th, 2007, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Well first off - there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". This is an incorrect emotion based "phrase" that is NOT tied to ANY medical or abortion procedure. There is NO such medical procedure as a partial birth abortion. The phrase is PURE propiganda DESIGNED only to obtain an emotional response and make people falsly believe that healthy, viable, living children who are half born are being slaughtered as they slide out of the vagina. That simply is NOT true.[/b]
Not exactly. "In the U.S., a federal statute defines "partial-birth abortion" as any abortion in which the fetus is extracted "past the navel [of the fetus] . . . outside the body of the mother," or "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," in order to cause death of the fetus. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the terms "partial-birth abortion" and "intact dilation and extraction" are basically synonymous" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilati...action#_note-26
partial Birth Abortion is a perfectly legal term, even if there's another medical term to refer to a specific procedure.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act defines it as "An abortion in which the person performing the abortion, deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus. (18 U.S. Code 1531)"

So it's not always done on a dead fetus.

Quote:
The real procedure is called a D and X and 99.9 percent of the time it is used on ALREADY DEAD deformed babies when MEDICALLY NESSICARY abortions in the second and third trimester are required to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that is severly ill or dead. Lets not forget that later term abortion is already legally regulated - and illegal in most places past a certian point - except in cases where dangers to the mother or fetus are present. Women aren't just going around slaying thier 8 month old fetuses because they woke up one morning and decided they no lnoger wanted to be pregnant - so they get D and X's.[/b]
As I said before, it's not always done on a dead fetus. It is indeed illegal in many states to have that procedure if the life of the mother isn't at stake. However, many groups (such as Planned Parenthood) are lobbying to have the procedure available by choice- without medical need.

Quote:
Live baby's aren't shredded and ripped limb from limb alive and kicking and screaming as most PL would like to have you believe.[/b]
No, not "kicking and screaming", but if the baby is alive and it has scissors jammed into its skull, that's killing it.
Here's an account from a nurse of this procedure done on a baby that had Down's Syndrome:
"Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms-- everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby's head just inside the uterus.

The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall.

The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby was completely limp
." http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/215.htm

Not kicking and screaming. But apparently clasping and unclasping.

Furthermore, before the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban became a law, even the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, stated in The New York Times in 1997 that "the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along".

Quote:
D and X's are medically nessicary - and if not absalutley nessicary ( I admit that there are other options like D and E and C-section) then often in the best intrest of the patient. Often time D and X is the procedure that will cause the WOMAN the LEAST HARM both physically, emotionally, psycologically exc. Why should a procedure that has been deemed in a patients best intrest by a professional be immoral or illegal because of a third partys misunderstandings and emotionally based arguments.[/b]
Because, as always, some people abused the procedure. And if even ONE healthy baby was killed in this horrible way out of convinience, it's one too many. No one's sayng t hat if the mother is in danger or the baby s already dead it should be banned. Even the law has those exceptions. But sadly, that's not always the case.

Sharon
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  #8  
October 9th, 2007, 01:53 PM
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Sad to say but an old co-worker of mine (who works in healthcare) got a doctor to do this procedure on her when she was in her 3rd trimester because she decided she didn't want the child of her abusive husband that she finally decided to leave and didn't want any "strings" attched so to speak. It was done totally illegally and years before I met her, but can you believe this? Personally it makes me ill......so legal or not they do take place and not for legit reasons....
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  #9  
October 10th, 2007, 08:24 PM
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yes, and I live in one of the only 2 states that allow an elective pba. Its not COMMON, but elective ones do happen, and in more than .1 % of the women that are getting them. I'm not sure on the percentages, but dont wanna chance running into the information I have chosen to not read about it anymore.
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  #10  
October 19th, 2007, 09:54 PM
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This makes me so sad for all the innocent children. If women would realize their babies body is totally separate from hers. It is a unique individual that has or should have all the rights of a separate individual. No one has the right to take another's life. I have been working in South Dakota to ban abortions and yes there was such a thing as partial birth abortions. It is so disturbing that Dr.s that have taken an oath to save lives are allowed to take lives. Especially in such a crude and detesting way. I hope more states follow in the South Dakota footsteps and start to actively do something to save our babies.
God Bless!!
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  #11  
November 2nd, 2007, 04:19 PM
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There is NO good reason for this type of abortion. By the time you would DO a partial birth abortion the child could probably live on it's own outside the womb so therefore if mom is gonna die over this -- GIVE BIRTH! Put the child up for adoption if you don't want it. Gosh, it's just gross that anyone would do something like that.
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  #12  
November 4th, 2007, 07:32 PM
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I can't believe people are so naive about partial birth abortions. Someone actually stated (professional doctors and nurses have stated their is no such thing as partial birth abortions) Da, they don't want to admit such a horrific thing occurs. Yes, they use to take place. I watched a documentary about a former nurse that worked at an abortion clinic. She described in detail how this type of abortion would take place.
The doctor would reach inside and grab one of the legs to turn the baby. They couldn't let the head come out first. Then he would reach in and grab the other leg. He would pull both legs out. She could remember seeing the feet and legs moving. Then the arms would come out and the fingers would be moving. A very vital little baby. The doctor then would carefully hold the head inside with his hands, he had to make sure the head did not come out. He then would take a pair of scissors stab them into the babies back of his neck and open up the scissors. Making a hole in it's neck. She said the baby would get rigid like when they are scared and then go limp. He would take a suction machine and literally suck the babies brains out.
This is NO D and X. The babies are VERY MUCH alive. People NEED to get better informed on all the facts.
This is such a cruel way to die!!!
I do consider this murder!!

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  #13  
November 5th, 2007, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Well first off - there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". This is an incorrect emotion based "phrase" that is NOT tied to ANY medical or abortion procedure. There is NO such medical procedure as a partial birth abortion. The phrase is PURE propiganda DESIGNED only to obtain an emotional response and make people falsly believe that healthy, viable, living children who are half born are being slaughtered as they slide out of the vagina. That simply is NOT true.[/b]
Not exactly. "In the U.S., a federal statute defines "partial-birth abortion" as any abortion in which the fetus is extracted "past the navel [of the fetus] . . . outside the body of the mother," or "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," in order to cause death of the fetus. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the terms "partial-birth abortion" and "intact dilation and extraction" are basically synonymous" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilati...action#_note-26
partial Birth Abortion is a perfectly legal term, even if there's another medical term to refer to a specific procedure.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act defines it as "An abortion in which the person performing the abortion, deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus. (18 U.S. Code 1531)"

So it's not always done on a dead fetus.

Quote:
The real procedure is called a D and X and 99.9 percent of the time it is used on ALREADY DEAD deformed babies when MEDICALLY NESSICARY abortions in the second and third trimester are required to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that is severly ill or dead. Lets not forget that later term abortion is already legally regulated - and illegal in most places past a certian point - except in cases where dangers to the mother or fetus are present. Women aren't just going around slaying thier 8 month old fetuses because they woke up one morning and decided they no lnoger wanted to be pregnant - so they get D and X's.[/b]
As I said before, it's not always done on a dead fetus. It is indeed illegal in many states to have that procedure if the life of the mother isn't at stake. However, many groups (such as Planned Parenthood) are lobbying to have the procedure available by choice- without medical need.

Quote:
Live baby's aren't shredded and ripped limb from limb alive and kicking and screaming as most PL would like to have you believe.[/b]
No, not "kicking and screaming", but if the baby is alive and it has scissors jammed into its skull, that's killing it.
Here's an account from a nurse of this procedure done on a baby that had Down's Syndrome:
"Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms-- everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby's head just inside the uterus.

The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall.

The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby was completely limp
." http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/215.htm

Not kicking and screaming. But apparently clasping and unclasping.

Furthermore, before the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban became a law, even the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, stated in The New York Times in 1997 that "the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along".

Quote:
D and X's are medically nessicary - and if not absalutley nessicary ( I admit that there are other options like D and E and C-section) then often in the best intrest of the patient. Often time D and X is the procedure that will cause the WOMAN the LEAST HARM both physically, emotionally, psycologically exc. Why should a procedure that has been deemed in a patients best intrest by a professional be immoral or illegal because of a third partys misunderstandings and emotionally based arguments.[/b]
Because, as always, some people abused the procedure. And if even ONE healthy baby was killed in this horrible way out of convinience, it's one too many. No one's sayng t hat if the mother is in danger or the baby s already dead it should be banned. Even the law has those exceptions. But sadly, that's not always the case.

Sharon
[/b]
You took the words right out of my mouth. This just goes to show how uneducated, people are about things.
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  #14  
November 7th, 2007, 09:54 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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mlynn
- Why is birth not an option? Isn't a c-section birth? I have the deepest sympathy for any woman who even has to think of doing such a thing but why not induce and let God take your baby why take it into your own hands in such a horribly gruesome way? If this child is gonna die no matter what why not let him or her die peacefully in the arms of its mother and if it is a matter of life or death for the mother how is induction not an option? Inductions happen everyday for completly trival reasons. C-sections happen everyday for completly ridiculous reasons if a c-section was the only way I could hold my baby in my arms I would go for it.
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  #15  
November 8th, 2007, 06:43 AM
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Here, early inductions for the same reasons are considered abortions as well. Our catholic hospitals refuse to do them for that reason.

And - just as a side note, I'm torn terribly (and leaning toward the side of against them), but primarily b/c of a situation of a distant family member (ok - not "SO" distant - but one of those second cousins uncles or something wierd like that). Her baby was diagnosed with severe Hydrocephaly(sp?). This was also several years back when it was impossible to do a VBAC. She also had some health problems herself concerning anesthesia. The baby was given almost no chance of living b/c of the amount of fluid on the brain. I know it was severe enough that they were not letting her continue the pregnancy to term b/c of the amount of fluid & the risk it posed to her & the baby. THeir suggestion was to induce labor before it posed any further dangers, and to allow the baby to be born partially, then to drain the fluid from the brain. I dont know any more specifics, the family was pretty much devestated. They did test after test, after ultrasound, after ultrasound... I do know there was really no disputing the fact that the baby had an immense amount of fluid around the brain.

The mother objected, she preferred to let things go naturally and if "god took her" then so be it. Her H disagreed of course, and ultimately I dont know what how the decision was made, but I do know that she had some medical issues during the labor, and the fluid fromt he baby's head was drained during the birth, and the baby subsequently died.

WE were told that was considered a partial birth abortion.

I dont know much more other than that, so i hesitate to take a firm stance, but I always think of this story when I think of this issue. I'm sure there are a thousand other details that I wasnt privvy to or that got mixed up along the way since she wasnt a direct relative, and it was just a phone tree of family members keeping everyone posted.

This was about 15 yrs ago? Maybe 10, but no less I dont htink.

So - who knows. Id like to say I know what I would do if faced with a situation like some of these women, but I really dont know. I do know that for any reason other than the health & well being of the baby and/or mother I would be opposed to anything including early induction that surely ends in death.

Lala...
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  #16  
November 12th, 2007, 11:23 PM
momof4mnkys
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I just want to know how a woman in her right mind, could murder her child this way? Someone has to be extremely naive to think that these partial birth abortions aren't done unless medically deemed necessary...I can't believe that someone could do this to their child. That's all i'm going to say.
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  #17  
November 13th, 2007, 09:46 AM
mommyKathyX3
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I just want to know how a woman in her right mind, could murder her child this way? Someone has to be extremely naive to think that these partial birth abortions aren't done unless medically deemed necessary...I can't believe that someone could do this to their child. That's all i'm going to say.[/b]
It happens sadly. Not often, but it does. Thats not being naive, its reality. Some people dont think of it as thier child, its a "thing" living in thier body, not a child.
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  #18  
November 21st, 2007, 03:11 PM
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They take out the babys brain matter to kill him or her.
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  #19  
January 7th, 2008, 06:53 AM
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Very well said!!!

Quote:
Quote:
Well first off - there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion". This is an incorrect emotion based "phrase" that is NOT tied to ANY medical or abortion procedure. There is NO such medical procedure as a partial birth abortion. The phrase is PURE propiganda DESIGNED only to obtain an emotional response and make people falsly believe that healthy, viable, living children who are half born are being slaughtered as they slide out of the vagina. That simply is NOT true.[/b]
Not exactly. "In the U.S., a federal statute defines "partial-birth abortion" as any abortion in which the fetus is extracted "past the navel [of the fetus] . . . outside the body of the mother," or "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," in order to cause death of the fetus. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the terms "partial-birth abortion" and "intact dilation and extraction" are basically synonymous" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilati...action#_note-26
partial Birth Abortion is a perfectly legal term, even if there's another medical term to refer to a specific procedure.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act defines it as "An abortion in which the person performing the abortion, deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus. (18 U.S. Code 1531)"

So it's not always done on a dead fetus.

Quote:
The real procedure is called a D and X and 99.9 percent of the time it is used on ALREADY DEAD deformed babies when MEDICALLY NESSICARY abortions in the second and third trimester are required to save the life of the mother or abort a fetus that is severly ill or dead. Lets not forget that later term abortion is already legally regulated - and illegal in most places past a certian point - except in cases where dangers to the mother or fetus are present. Women aren't just going around slaying thier 8 month old fetuses because they woke up one morning and decided they no lnoger wanted to be pregnant - so they get D and X's.[/b]
As I said before, it's not always done on a dead fetus. It is indeed illegal in many states to have that procedure if the life of the mother isn't at stake. However, many groups (such as Planned Parenthood) are lobbying to have the procedure available by choice- without medical need.

Quote:
Live baby's aren't shredded and ripped limb from limb alive and kicking and screaming as most PL would like to have you believe.[/b]
No, not "kicking and screaming", but if the baby is alive and it has scissors jammed into its skull, that's killing it.
Here's an account from a nurse of this procedure done on a baby that had Down's Syndrome:
"Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms-- everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby's head just inside the uterus.

The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall.

The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby was completely limp
." http://judiciary.house.gov/legacy/215.htm

Not kicking and screaming. But apparently clasping and unclasping.

Furthermore, before the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban became a law, even the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, stated in The New York Times in 1997 that "the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along".

Quote:
D and X's are medically nessicary - and if not absalutley nessicary ( I admit that there are other options like D and E and C-section) then often in the best intrest of the patient. Often time D and X is the procedure that will cause the WOMAN the LEAST HARM both physically, emotionally, psycologically exc. Why should a procedure that has been deemed in a patients best intrest by a professional be immoral or illegal because of a third partys misunderstandings and emotionally based arguments.[/b]
Because, as always, some people abused the procedure. And if even ONE healthy baby was killed in this horrible way out of convinience, it's one too many. No one's sayng t hat if the mother is in danger or the baby s already dead it should be banned. Even the law has those exceptions. But sadly, that's not always the case.

Sharon
[/b]
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  #20  
January 10th, 2008, 09:26 AM
PuNkLiVz's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami
Posts: 2,292
Partial birth abortions are an abomination to mankind. I can't believe that they STILL do this in some states. YES it is a partial birth abortion.

from how I am told it happens, is that they take the babies body out until just the head is still in the canal, and they use a special tool to "suck the brain" out of the baby.

this is legal, and you don't have to have medical issues, all you need is 3000$ it's almost as bad as cutting each limb off the baby until its all out.
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