[Smashley]

What happens, and where do you go if you commit suicide?

[One Frugal Mom]

I do not believe the dead go anywhere except into the grave. Now... as for whether they will be resurrected or not... only God can read their hearts and knows why they felt the need to kill themselves. It is not for me to judge them.


"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." Ecclesiates 9:5

"However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]." 1 Corinthians 15:20

[*~Mom2Emily~*]

Could you possibly explain those verses? I'm a Christian but those have me scratching my head.

I was raised Catholic so in that I was taught you go to Hell if you commit suicide. But as far as my personal feelings.....I'm kinda going with an every ones right kinda thing. You go to "the other side" aka Heaven and either are there or can choose to be reborn, etc. But like I said, just my personal feelings on the subject I believe 100% there is "something" after death and although I believe in God I'm just not certain if I believe in the Christian idea of Heaven

[smsturner]

Well, my super baptist dad says anyone who commits suicide and gives up the gift of life god gave them is going straight to hell (and deserves it).

I don't agree. I'm an atheist. I think we just cease to exist.

[Jarheadwed]

I think any person who is so desperate to escape from grief that they turn to suicide will be forgiven, because God will see it was pain that made their thinking clouded enough that they decided to take their own life. That's how our youth minister explained it to me when a classmate hung himself when I was in middle school.

[ShawnaCAN]

I was raised Catholic so in that I was taught you go to Hell if you commit suicide.


This isn't actually what the Catholic faith teaches though, perhaps it was just someone's misconception about the faith.

We (Catholics) believe that suicide is a serious sin, but nobody knows what happens in the last moments before a suicidal person dies. If they have a split second to repent sincerely, they will not go to Hell. There is also the issue of culpability. In order to commit a mortal sin and go to Hell for it, you have to have full awareness that what you're doing is seriously sinful and deliberately do it anyway. Someone who commits suicide is usually suffering from emotional issues, or trauma, or depression, or mental illness to such an extent that they cannot be fully aware of what they are doing - they just want to make the pain stop. So culpability is diminished.

As Catholics, we commend those who commit suicide to the mercy of God because we simply don't know what state their soul was in during the very last moment of their lives. Only God knows that. He can forgive any sin if we ask forgiveness for it, even suicide if we have time.

[Smashley]

Thanks for the answers, but this raises my next question. IF God knew from the day we were put on this earth EVERYTHING we were going to do, how could he NOT forgive us? He knew this person was going to kill themselves before they even knew. Obviously by my siggy I am sure you can put two and two together and figure out this is a personal issue. The man in my siggy committed suicide going on 4mths ago. He was the greatest person I knew. The most selfless person. However, he was a tortured soul ravaged by mental illness (undiagnosed, but I have never seen such a textbook case of bi-polar) and alcohol. I just feel like he couldn't have gone to hell. How could such a good soul go there because God put him on this Earth to suffer in such horrific ways? I am not catholic or any kind of denominational Christian....not to mention I am a seriously struggling Christian at best lol. Thanks for your answers though. Brings some peace of mind, though it doesn;t fully feel like he is gone yet.

[Frugal Abundance]

Because the Bible is relatively silent on this topic, I believe it is dangerous to jump to the conclusion that one just "go to Hell"; there is no Scriptural basis for that, only conjecture. Scriptures also say that He is merciful; He looks at the heart, not just the action, and I don't believe He would hold someone accountable for an action that is really outside of themselves. People don't just commit suicide for the heck of it, they do it for heartbreaking reasons.

[ShawnaCAN]

Originally Posted by Smashley

Thanks for the answers, but this raises my next question. IF God knew from the day we were put on this earth EVERYTHING we were going to do, how could he NOT forgive us? He knew this person was going to kill themselves before they even knew.

A person does not go to Hell because God will not forgive them. A person goes to hell because they choose not to accept His forgiveness. We all get to choose for ourselves. Serious sin is how we tell God to bugger off and that we don't want Him in our lives, that we don't want His forgiveness. God's forgiveness is always waiting for us, even before we sin...but we have to repent and ask for His forgiveness. We have to choose to receive it, or reject it. It's up to us. I believe it's possible for someone who commits suicide to do that in the last split second of their lives. I'm so sorry about the loss of your friend. I don't believe anyone can say he's in hell, they don't know what his final moments were.

[One Frugal Mom]

Originally Posted by One Frugal Mom

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten." Ecclesiates 9:5

"However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]." 1 Corinthians 15:20

The first verse tell me that the dead are in a state where they do not have any knowledge of what is going on, thus not in Heaven or in any other state of conscienceness.

The second verse is where I believe that we will be raised from the dead and where the Bible described the dead as being in a sleep-like state.

Originally Posted by Smashley

Thanks for the answers, but this raises my next question. IF God knew from the day we were put on this earth EVERYTHING we were going to do, how could he NOT forgive us? He knew this person was going to kill themselves before they even knew. Obviously by my siggy I am sure you can put two and two together and figure out this is a personal issue. The man in my siggy committed suicide going on 4mths ago. He was the greatest person I knew. The most selfless person. However, he was a tortured soul ravaged by mental illness (undiagnosed, but I have never seen such a textbook case of bi-polar) and alcohol. I just feel like he couldn't have gone to hell. How could such a good soul go there because God put him on this Earth to suffer in such horrific ways? I am not catholic or any kind of denominational Christian....not to mention I am a seriously struggling Christian at best lol. Thanks for your answers though. Brings some peace of mind, though it doesn;t fully feel like he is gone yet.

I do not believe that God knows from birth everything we will do. I believe He could have that knowledge IF He wants to.... but he gives us free-will so that we can make our own choices.

I believe that God is very forgiving to those who suffer mental illness and only He knows what they are truly going through.

Plus, I do not believe in a literal Hell, where people are tortured for eternity.

[*~Mom2Emily~*]

Originally Posted by ShawnaCAN

I was raised Catholic so in that I was taught you go to Hell if you commit suicide.


This isn't actually what the Catholic faith teaches though, perhaps it was just someone's misconception about the faith.

We (Catholics) believe that suicide is a serious sin, but nobody knows what happens in the last moments before a suicidal person dies. If they have a split second to repent sincerely, they will not go to Hell. There is also the issue of culpability. In order to commit a mortal sin and go to Hell for it, you have to have full awareness that what you're doing is seriously sinful and deliberately do it anyway. Someone who commits suicide is usually suffering from emotional issues, or trauma, or depression, or mental illness to such an extent that they cannot be fully aware of what they are doing - they just want to make the pain stop. So culpability is diminished.

As Catholics, we commend those who commit suicide to the mercy of God because we simply don't know what state their soul was in during the very last moment of their lives. Only God knows that. He can forgive any sin if we ask forgiveness for it, even suicide if we have time.

I agree it isn't the teaching of today but I was taught that by my super Catholic Grandmother who was raised in the old Catholic ways (I think in the 60s is when the Church started changing and getting with the times)

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

I agree with you (Smashley) that it is hard to understand by God would chose to give someone a perfectly wonderful life and then turn around and give someone horrible mental diseases. I think that's a reason why some people don't believe in God, and to me, it's completely understandable.

It's easy to say "God lets us make our own choices." Okay well thats great but what about the people who are born sick....what choice did they get?

I can be really over map about stuff like this. Like I said earlier I believe 100% in something after death, I just don't know what. I believe in God also. Some days I can completely understand why people don't believe in God and then other days I just have to look at DD or nature and can't understand why people don't believe there is a God.

[AMDG]

Originally Posted by *~Mom2Emily~*

I agree it isn't the teaching of today but I was taught that by my super Catholic Grandmother who was raised in the old Catholic ways (I think in the 60s is when the Church started changing and getting with the times)



.

Although some things did change within the Church in the 60's the Church's teaching haven't changed. It could be that more emphasis is placed on God's mercy then before but the actual teaching on suicide has not chanced.

[Keskes]

Honestly, I think everyone has their own trials and obstacles to overcome. Some people are given a mental illness, some women are given the inability to conceive. Anyone who thinks their life is wonderful and nothing bad has ever happened to them just have something huge on the horizon. We all have trials we are supposed to overcome while here on earth.

To answer the OP, I will say that my church doesn't believe in Hell. Well, okay, there IS a hell, but it is nearly impossible to get there from Earth. Basically to go to Hell you have to denounce Christ even though you have a first-hand knowledge of his existence. My church believe in modern revelation. The founder of our church had a vision from heavenly Father and Christ. Essentially, one has to have a vision along those lines, and STILL say Christ isn't real. The vast majority of people on earth will never have the opportunity to even do that, and so the vast majority can never go to Hell.

As for the other people, there are three levels of Heaven that the people are divided into. It's kind of complicated and a lot to type out, but the basic gist is: the Holy Spirit is in the 3rd Kingdom, or the "lowest." The Holy Spirit and Christ are on the second level, and all three Heavenly Beings are on the 1st level. So we are not alone or without guidance when we get to Heaven, but who we have with us in terms of Divinity depends on our choices. Oh, and no one goes to any of those levels until everyone on the Earth has come and gone. So until then we're just kind of hanging out in a waiting room. While in that room we get taught the things that Christ needs to teach us, and we are free to decide if we want to accept it or not. At the final judgement, we can choose to go to Heaven, or Hell.

So my church leaders would tell you that your dear friend is in a waiting room, probably chilling with any of his deceased friends or family members, waiting for the final Judgement, and being taught the Word of Christ (the things he didn't know already). How he will be judged is based on the Lord, Christ, and how he chooses to accept the knowledge he's being given in the waiting room.

[Frugal Abundance]

Originally Posted by *~Mom2Emily~*

I agree with you (Smashley) that it is hard to understand by God would chose to give someone a perfectly wonderful life and then turn around and give someone horrible mental diseases. I think that's a reason why some people don't believe in God, and to me, it's completely understandable.

Why do you feel that God "gives" people mental diseases?

[*~Mom2Emily~*]

Why do you feel that God "gives" people mental diseases?

Well what word would you like used? Do people with mental diseases choose to have them? If God created each and every one of us in a different way and loves us all equally (which I'll say again I 100% believe by the way) did the people with mental diseases just get the short end of the stick? Is it just too bad for them? I certainly hope no one feels that way! I'm just trying to state that I can completely understand why some people choose not to believe in God. But maybe those people also focus a little too much on the bad things in life. I personally look at my child and can't understand how people don't believe there is something more to this whole thing called life. I really think your putting too much into a simple word

[Keskes]

I totally believe God gives people mental diseases. Just like he gives people physical defects, or other obstacles to stumble them.

We all have something we need to overcome in this life, and we all have trials to deal with. That's the point of being on earth - to learn, grow, trust, and overcome the obstacles placed in front of us. mental illness is not a punishment - sometimes it is a blessing, sometimes it's a challenging obstacle.

My religion has kind of a.. different.. view on such matters though.

[*~Mom2Emily~*]

^^I agree mental disease is not a punishment (just to be clear)

[ShawnaCAN]

Disease is not from God, it's just a product of living in a fallen world. It's not a personal punishment either. The consequence of the first sin is that all of humanity has to contend with disease, death, hunger, etc. When humanity chose to disobey God, they chose to live apart from God. Now we have a way to reconcile our hearts to God and obtain Eternal Life, but the consequence of the first sin (living in a fallen world) still exists. We are in exile in the fallen world until we are made perfect again, as God intended us to be before we bailed on Him and rejected that perfection.

[Frugal Abundance]

^^Ditto. God allows imperfection in an imperfect world, but that doesn't necessarily mean He causes it. Mental illness can stem from chemical imbalances, neurological trauma, emotional trauma, etc. To simply chalk it up to being "caused" by God perpetuates the stigma of mental illness and prevents people from getting the help they need. My husband is being treated for severe depression; as a minister he is very cautious about who he opens up to about it because of the stigma that he must be "punished" by God or has demons or something, compounded by the other stigma of choosing to treat his depression holistically. Christianity is about having faith in Him and continuing to follow Him, in spite of the difficulties and trials in this life; if everything were all rainbows and sunshine, faith wouldn't be necessary.

[Keskes]

Originally Posted by insert clever username

^^Ditto. God allows imperfection in an imperfect world, but that doesn't necessarily mean He causes it. Mental illness can stem from chemical imbalances, neurological trauma, emotional trauma, etc. To simply chalk it up to being "caused" by God perpetuates the stigma of mental illness and prevents people from getting the help they need. My husband is being treated for severe depression; as a minister he is very cautious about who he opens up to about it because of the stigma that he must be "punished" by God or has demons or something, compounded by the other stigma of choosing to treat his depression holistically. Christianity is about having faith in Him and continuing to follow Him, in spite of the difficulties and trials in this life; if everything were all rainbows and sunshine, faith wouldn't be necessary.

I'm not sure how saying God causes mental illnesses as just another stumbling block perpetuates a certain stigma. I specifically said it's not a punishment. I'm not going to alter my beliefs or disbelieve I've been taught just because people choose to selectively listen to my opinion (not you, I mean the people who would think I said it was a punishment). I even said that sometimes it's a blessing.

I completely agree with this statement you made - Christianity is about having faith in Him and continuing to follow Him, in spite of the difficulties and trials in this life; if everything were all rainbows and sunshine, faith wouldn't be necessary. Which is why I believe he GIVES us these obstacles to overcome. To strengthen our faith.