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PSA: correlation between induction drugs and autism?


Forum: September 2013 Playroom

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  #1  
August 22nd, 2013, 02:12 PM
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There are tons of articles if you want to google it, but new studies are finding possible correlations between induction drugs and autism.
Just an FYI. And when you think about how 1. induction rates have SKYROCKETED in the last 20 years and 2. autism rates have also shot up, it's enough reason to at least hesitate.
Wanted to share that for anyone interested.
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  #2  
August 22nd, 2013, 02:49 PM
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I caution anyone against freaking out over this suggestion without being able to point to some clear, hard evidence in aggressively-peer reviewed and scrutinized studies from well-reputed doctors and scientific journals.

Correlation and causation are different; it's a fundamental rule of science. Autism rates are up in part because more people are being diagnosed as on the spectrum; not necessarily because more people are experiencing symptoms.

Autism is a very complex thing and we've only so far encountered the tip of the iceberg. I mean we've hardly even defined it.

It's not a bad idea at this point to approach all _________ = AUTISM!! claims with extreme skepticism.
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  #3  
August 22nd, 2013, 02:59 PM
Keakie's Avatar Learning to walk in faith
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First of all, as this thread inherently has the potential to become heated, I would like to ask that non-September DDC posters refrain from posting, particularly those who are posting with the sole intent of debating. Our DDC is not a debate board. JM does have a debate board, however, and I would encourage you to head in that direction if that's something you're interested in.

OP, while I understand your intent in posting this here and while I personally have a lot of reservations about elective inductions for a multitude of reasons, I'm not sure that a thread like this aligns with the spirit of our board, which is to be supportive and provide positive encouragement to one another (and perhaps knowing which threads and subjects to walk away from if doing so conflicts with your own values and beliefs).
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  #4  
August 22nd, 2013, 03:00 PM
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I personally think autism is over diagnosed! I had therapists try and tell me my daughter had Autism because of some common symptoms all of which are gone now.
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  #5  
August 22nd, 2013, 03:20 PM
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Geez, ladies, back down. I, for one, appreciate hearing things like this. I'm in no way trying to stir the pot. I also know that autism is a complex and oft-misunderstood condition. That being said, if there is even a possibility of a correlation, wouldn't we want to know? And yes, I know the difference between correlation and causation.
This kind of post SHOULD be what this board is about: sharing information and opinions. This isn't an attempt at drama; I have far better things to do with my time.

One more thing: I just heard about this today. I haven't even formed an opinion on this. So if anyone is offended or disagrees with this, don't expect me to be defending the research. I just thought it was interesting enough to share.
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  #6  
August 22nd, 2013, 03:27 PM
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I don't think you're trying to start any drama or stir the pot. I just know that subjects like inductions, autism, etc. are incredibly sensitive for a lot of mamas and there are big, big opinions on both sides. They're very difficult topics to delve into without things becoming personal and heated (even when the people involved in the conversation aren't 8+ months pregnant in the middle of summer ).
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  #7  
August 22nd, 2013, 04:04 PM
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I have recently started posting here as my child is scheduled to arrive in September, so I will assume the "non-Sept DDC posters" thing doesn't apply to me.

In case it was aimed at me, however, I am not here to debate. I've said everything I feel it is worthwhile to say regarding this subject. Notice I didn't even say that the OP is wrong; I just said that without hard evidence, this idea needs to be treated very carefully.

Thanks for the warm welcome, tho.

OP: my discourse isn't very flowery as a rule and I sometimes come off as insensitive or harsh. I didn't mean to make you feel targeted when I offered my perspective, so I am sorry if I did.
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  #8  
August 22nd, 2013, 04:15 PM
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This is the first (intentional) post you've made in our DDC. I'm fairly sure that I saw a post written by you that stated that while your due date had been moved to late September, you would be remaining in the October DDC. Combining that with the fact that I've seen several posts in your own DDC in which you've been extremely condescending when it comes to any viewpoint that doesn't hail the medical community and the pharmaceutical industry as gods, I can only assume that the purpose of your presence in this thread is to debate.

If you are genuinely interested in forming relationships with the women in this DDC, I would suggest saying hello and perhaps starting with an introductory post, rather than jumping in on a sensitive thread with an aggressive post out of the blue.
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  #9  
August 22nd, 2013, 04:26 PM
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I've seen several posts in your own DDC in which you've been extremely condescending when it comes to any viewpoint that doesn't hail the medical community and the pharmaceutical industry as gods

I'll have to call this a matter of opinion. I have never outright attacked anyone, and any condescension, I would argue, lies in your perception. You and I haven't spoken for months, so I thought perhaps we could let our differences lie.

Interesting, though, that you pay that close attention to my posts in the October DDC but missed

http://www.justmommies.com/forums/f1...l#post27601201

and

http://www.justmommies.com/forums/f1...l#post27589720

In yours.

Perhaps an introductory post would be a good idea, I'll grant you that. As I mostly lurk, however (and wasn't trying to kick up drama fwiw), it didn't occur to me to get formally introduced.
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  #10  
August 22nd, 2013, 04:44 PM
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I read about this a week or so ago, but thank you for posting. In my opinion, there is no such thing as too much information when making decisions pertaining to our babies or children.

I have been that mom that looks back at a decision I've made, regretted it, and thought "If I'd only known _____". The regret, the what ifs, and the guilt are horrible to live with. If this post gets even one person to look into the issue to make an informed decision that prevents them from wondering later if they'd made a different choice if only they'd known, then IMO it's worth it.
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  #11  
August 22nd, 2013, 05:20 PM
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Let it die..who cares, we've all got bigger fish to fry! Everyone should keep their opinions to themselves if they are negative, if someone is trying to give advice or their thoughts and it comes off negative then it should be stated that its not meant to be taken that way. I have been attacked over saying I want to be induced electively twice in this DDC, no one is perfect, it happens, lets be adults and move on from it!
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  #12  
August 22nd, 2013, 05:30 PM
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So when it comes to birth, I am like, super crunchy, homebirth rah rah, hate unnecessary inductions, etc. HOWEVER. I am a big fan of you know, math and science, of which the article has not much.

Quote:
The strongest risks were in boys whose mothers had labor started and hastened. They were 35 percent more likely to have autism.
Your odds of having a boy with ASD is 1 in 58. 1.72% of boys will have it. Nearly 2%.

A 35% increased risk.

35% of 1.72 is .602

1.72 + .602 is 2.322%

So if EVERYONE was induced, you'd see an increase of a little over a half a case, per hundred. Maybe.


Quote:
Government data suggest 1 in 5 U.S. women have labor induced — twice as many as in 1990.
20% of women are induced these days.

Quote:
Among autistic boys, almost one-third of the mothers had labor started or hastened, versus almost 29 percent of the boys without autism.

An unspecified nearness that is less than 33% of autistic boys were induced.
29% of not-autistic boys were induced.

What about the 67% of autistic boy that weren't induced?

What is "almost" one third? 30% to 29%?

Literally, the entire conclusion of this study falls within the acceptable margin of error, which is to say that it isn't even acceptable as evidence. Like how we know 50% of the time you'll flip heads and 50% you'll flip tails...except sometimes it's 52% heads and it doesn't MEAN anything. This study is like flipping heads a few extra times.

So like...if you're facing a medical reason for induction...please don't let this article worry you. It's bunk.
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  #13  
August 22nd, 2013, 05:57 PM
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@ sk8ermaiden: I can't argue your response. In fact, my dh is a statistician and instantly went to town on the numbers. I just want to reiterate the intent of this post was just to share info. And the reason I felt this info was still valid enough to post was simple: I see ANY kind of increased risk as justification for avoiding unnecessary inductions.

As further illustration, there have been numerous studies showing that wine, when drunk in moderation, has no negative effect on pregnancy. Yet I (a huge wine fan), have given it up for the duration of my pregnancy. Why? Just because I want to make sure my baby has no added risk. So while the statistical interpretation of this could all be attributed to a margin of error, it's still enough for me to say "not worth it." I thought other women riding the fence would want to see this information, too (like My3His1 said).
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  #14  
August 22nd, 2013, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sk8ermaiden View Post
So if EVERYONE was induced, you'd see an increase of a little over a half a case, per hundred. Maybe.
I'm not arguing the statistics or anything you posted. I'm just saying that being that one extra case per hundred can cause a parent to live with regret and guilt for the rest of their life. I speak from experience. Because of that, I think it's important for parents to be aware of new research coming out that points to correlations among things they may not have known about. If they read the information and make the informed choice that the risks don't outweigh the benefits for their situation, that's totally fine; at least they had the information and made an informed choice. But trust me, making a choice for your child that ends up negatively impacting them for the rest of their life and looking back wishing you had only known is awful.
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  #15  
August 22nd, 2013, 06:40 PM
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Sophielee, without trying to make you feel targeted or single you out or any such thing as that, may I pose that every time you get in your car, you significantly elevate the risk of placental abruption and impact trauma on the fetus? Does that mean you should never get in a motorized vehicle? Certainly not.

My point is that risk can not be erased; it can only be balanced. Further, it's important to understand what risks actually exist and which are purely conjecture.

I appreciate that you are only sharing what you believe is valuable information about a correlation of statistics regarding autism, but my argument is that a lot of people (I'm not pointing at you here) will take advantage of such correlations (in the absence of evidence of causation) and use them to incite fear in folks who are not trained scientists. There has been a lot of damage caused by similar processes, and so it is not a harmless thing to draw casual parallels without strong supporting evidence.

I understand you mean well, and for all we know there is a causative factor linking induction and autism - we can't say for sure right now. Until we can, though, it's worth being careful about which "risks" we encourage people to become greatly concerned with. Surely it would be an awful thing if someone refused a doctor's recommendation for induction and had a bad or fatal medical outcome as a result of her unsubstantiated fear that the induction could possibly give her baby autism. Is there a risk that the two are connected? Sure. There's also a risk a solar flare will destroy every computer on half of the planet tomorrow. It's important to evaluate the seriousness of the risks we face and make choices based on those valuations and in the meantime be cautious as to what level of importance we assign risks when sharing our concerns with eachother - especially since not everyone has been taught to be skeptical and critical of what they hear. You know?

Anyway, I didn't mean to jack your thread. Thanks for reading.
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  #16  
August 22nd, 2013, 06:57 PM
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Okay, first, I agree with Keaks that this is a hot button topic that isn't necessairly the best thing to discuss at the moment - heavily pregnant women debating never sounds like a good idea. In fact, when I first saw the article I wondered whether anyone in our original group would post. First thing first, I have not read this article because I knew it would irritate me (much like the vaccines cause autism arguement). Assuming the numbers came from the article, Sk8ermaiden is absolutely right with her math - there appears to be no difference whatsoever between the groups. I personally don't want to be induced, but there are situations where it is necessary, one of which happened to my SIL. My concern is that if people start these 'PSAs', it may cause some mommas to reject a medically necessary induction because of statistically-insignificant correlations that are far from being proven. Our job on this board is to support each other and offer useful advice when it's requested. For these reasons, I think it may be a good idea to lock this thread before it becomes more heated than it needs to be.
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  #17  
August 22nd, 2013, 07:46 PM
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Hm. I'm not sure I buy into the idea that being pregnant makes us inherently incapable of keeping our heads during a disagreement. Maybe that's the feminist in me talking, but that suggestion really bothers me.

Also if experience serves, these things usually run their course before mods are able to respond to a lock request anyway. I think it makes more sense to just expect everyone to behave themselves and not get too terribly worked up over what amounts to pixels on a screen representing the opinions of people we're unlikely to ever even meet.

I think XKCD said it best:



Anyway it's movie time. Cheers.
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  #18  
August 22nd, 2013, 08:01 PM
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For someone who truly feels that way, you're sure not missing an opportunity to come back and continuing stirring the pot.
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  #19  
August 22nd, 2013, 08:46 PM
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I'm a research freak and I appreciate seeing these kinds of topics so I can be made aware that maybe there is something I can look into to maje my own informed descision. I didnt view this post as anything other than someone saying "hey, I just read this, seens worth informing ourselves over." Why dont people just politely share their information on the topic without putting an emotional slant on it. I think we can do that right? No need to debate just share. I'm perfectly fine with a thread like this as long as we keep the respect.
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  #20  
August 22nd, 2013, 09:53 PM
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ಠ_ಠ

You'll have to excuse me; I thought this was a discussion board.
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