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  #1  
October 4th, 2009, 03:33 PM
BellaBellski's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I never ever thought that other peoples ignorance would affect me so badly... but holy crap.

DD & I decided to go to the Library today. At the bottom of the hill we live on is a traffic circle. There were a bunch of people lined around it, I mean a -bunch- of people, I thought strike or something .... no it was an anti-abortion rally. There were so many people, and so many signs, calling me so many horrible things. I had to drive all the way around the traffic circle to get back home - I was bawling my eyes out. I could hardly see, breathe, I just needed to get home. I walked through the door shaking and crying my eyes out and scared the crap out of my husband. He thought someone died or something. I really didn't think that would ever affect me so badly... but ****. I wish people would realize that sometimes there is NO choice. I hate ignorance

sorry for my vent, I just.... I know there are some people that can understand here. That went through what I did... ugggh I still feel like bawling my eyes out. It's not fair
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  #2  
October 4th, 2009, 04:50 PM
rebeccabaltimore and more's Avatar (rebeccabaltimore)
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I totally understand. All of my family and friends know about and support our decision, but acquaintences, coworkers, and strangers have spoken out against termination for poor prenatal diagnoses, not knowing that I have made that choice. It is so hard to hear. I see it a lot on JM actually. "I would NEVER do that!!" Really? I never thought I would either, but when your child is suffering . . . Seeing anti-abortion rallies and even bumper stickers just reduce me to tears. Do they not realize how hard a decision this is to make?
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  #3  
October 4th, 2009, 05:35 PM
grlpisces's Avatar Dynamite w/ a laser beam
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Was this a national anti-abortion rally or something? I noticed the protesters today on the main street that is outside of our neighborhood. And a FB 'friend' posted pictures of her 6th grade daughter with two friends holding up signs.

I told DH that on our way back from the store, if the protesters were still out there I was going to roll down the window and flip them all off. And I had the same thought as what Rebecca posted here. If any one of those young girls out there was faced with having to terminate a pregnancy --- regardless of the reason --- I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that she would NOT remember today's anti rally and say that she'd NEVER do that because of a sign she was holding today.

I find those types of rallies to be demeaning, insulting, and incredibly judgmental. They are closed-minded, they are teaching their children to be closed-minded and ignorant, and they are taking it upon themselves to judge others.
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  #4  
October 4th, 2009, 10:09 PM
Brittanie's Avatar just me
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Oh goodness, I agree with Barb. I hate those rallies, because they are SO closed minded. I am not the type of person who could say "I would never do that." Honestly, knowing so many women here who have been in your shoes, I've thought deeply about it...and I don't know. It hurts to even THINK about having to make that decision. I can't imagine the heartbreak of even being there. I remember your posts from around that time, and how much you hurt. I'm sorry that you came up against that.

Nobody has any right to condemn you for that.
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  #5  
October 5th, 2009, 12:08 AM
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OMG DOES THAT EVER PISS ME OFF. GET A F.UCKING LIFE YOU F.UCKERS. I AM FURIOUS RIGHT NOW.

How come they were calling you horrible things, Tanya? Were some of these f.uckers people that you know that knew what you went through?

I am SO sorry you had to go through that. F.UCK those f.uckers.

(sorry for my language but I am PISSED).
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  #6  
October 5th, 2009, 06:16 AM
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I've never seen a rally like that. Yikes. That's just going too far. Terminating due to adverse dx is something abstract until it happens to you. I think even the people that claim they won't don't really even know. Their convictions may be strong, but because they haven't been there they don't know and can't possibly understand what goes in to making that decision.

I could not go through the 'traditional' procedure, but there have been times I have contemplated what I would do if faced with such a decision. I just don't understand why induction termination isn't favored in these cases. Had we known about Duncan's condition and prognosis we would have surely been pressured to terminate. Not something we could do in that case. I know for sure we would have carried to term or opted for live preterm delivery (had we known earlier) in order to avoid him being stillborn.

Yeah, why were they calling you those things? Were they aware of your situation?
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  #7  
October 5th, 2009, 06:36 AM
lunarmagic's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Things like that just make me so angry.... it's just so disgusting for people to judge others without knowing the circumstance, without ever having been in those shoes themselves.
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  #8  
October 5th, 2009, 10:53 AM
BellaBellski's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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They are absolutely closed minded, and have no clue what they would do in the situation. Anyone can say they'd -never-, hell I said it! But really in some cases the decision is made for you, you just have to go through with it. D's birth defects were a mistake of nature, they shouldn't have happened. But he shouldn't have been made to live like that. And deep down I know that.

I didn't mean literally calling -me- things... but the "ABORTIONS KILL BABIES" and other "Baby Killer" signs were pretty much doing that... you know what I mean?
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  #9  
October 5th, 2009, 12:04 PM
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I don't like the 'baby killer' messages either. I am very much pro-life, but not in a way that I can't understand a need for early induction/termination in specific cases.

Abortion for convinience because you don't want a, apparently healthy baby is wrong IMO, it is selfish and makes me so sad knowing how many people would do anything to be pregnant and can't, or to even take that baby and love it.

I hate that it made you feel so bad.
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  #10  
October 5th, 2009, 01:06 PM
rebeccabaltimore and more's Avatar (rebeccabaltimore)
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It's hard because rallyers don't realize that they are yelling at you but you do. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I burst into tears and told them the tragedy of Ethan's short life, it's easy to yell baby killer until you have one sobbing in front of you.
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  #11  
October 5th, 2009, 01:16 PM
lunarmagic's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeccabaltimore View Post
It's hard because rallyers don't realize that they are yelling at you but you do. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I burst into tears and told them the tragedy of Ethan's short life, it's easy to yell baby killer until you have one sobbing in front of you.
I was thinking the same thing... I wonder what would happen if one of you confronted them, said, "This is what happened to ME." I bet most of them would do some serious backpedaling. I bet they'd say, "oh but we don't mean YOU."
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  #12  
October 5th, 2009, 04:24 PM
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Honestly, I personally do think abortion is killing a life and I think you all do as well. I don't think any of you who have had to make the worst decision any parent would ever in a million years have to make would say that your child was NOT a child. Did you stop suffering before it happened, yes, very much, and that was done from love. It was not a decision made for reasons like a handy birth control. I know TOO many women who have had many many abortions and use it as birth control.

That's what they protest. Not you. I believe if abortion was made illegal, cases like yours would still happen because they are medically necessary.

I'm so sorry it caused you so much hurt though! I've never been a big fan of those protests... I don't see what good they do.
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  #13  
October 5th, 2009, 04:40 PM
rebeccabaltimore and more's Avatar (rebeccabaltimore)
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I think I just resent being lumped in with my irresponsible peers who use abortion as a form of birth control (guess how often it happens where I work and you'll see why I often hate my job). I'm pro-choice (sorta) even after losing Ethan, but I find myself outraged at the poor choices many women make. I'm resentful because I HAD to make that horrible choice, and I have to live with it every day. But that doesn't make me the same as all the irresponsible parents out there, and I get frustrated because many of the vocal pro-lifers out there don't make a distinction. I know that the vast majority of pro-lifers DO make that distinction, but you guys aren't the in your face jerks whose loud judgment is painful. Several months after inducing Ethan, the country's most compassionate provider of late-term induction terminations for poor prenatal diagnosis was murdered, and the media ****storm that followed was hard to bear. All Dr. Tiller performed were the kind of terminations I myself had, and while I understand it was a nutcase who actually killed him, I read and heard a lot of average movement members say they weren't sorry that "monster" was gone. I guess the anonymity of the internet allows people to say what they would never say in polite company. Now I am always wondering what people think of me that they are not saying out loud.

Sorry for the rant, this is just a subject that I am still emotionally working on, and nobody else is ever willing to discuss it.
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  #14  
October 5th, 2009, 05:13 PM
SarahBethsMommy's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I think it is something we should discuss. And people shouldn't get so angry about it... I mean my fellow pro-lifers out there. Too many of them won't shut up long enough to hear a reasonable person speak about why they think a choice should be allowed. Then we just get nutcases who blow up abortion clinics and make us all seem like complete morons.

I've considered all the sides of the arguement and I still fall very firmly on the side of pro-life. However, I love you all. I don't resent anyone for any decision they make. I don't want any of you to think that. I just don't think it should be legal for a peson who gets pregnant to think, "Well, no big deal I'll just abort." Because it is a big deal and women deal with that emotion from it forever. That isn't talked about. Still people who have had abortions (understandably so) don't talk about the emotions they have AFTER the abortion. So many young women go into a clinic thinking they'll just "rid themselves of this problem" without considering the fact that they will spend the rest of their life wondering if what they did was right, ok, dreaming about the child, and more. I don't know everyone's story... obviously... but I have a number of friends who have said those exact words to me who HAVE had abortions. I hurt for them. I hurt that they weren't even told this COULD happen. No one considers that side.
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  #15  
October 5th, 2009, 05:14 PM
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That is the exact reason I would not protest. Yes, I believe that an abortion stops the life of a baby. I believe in the personhood of that baby, it is more than just fetus, even those babies that have anomalies that are incompatible with life, they are still people. But, to stop the suffering to maybe be able to hold a living baby for a few minutes instead of giving birth to a stillborn baby. Yes, there are reasons for terminating a pregnancy.

I know for me I would not have an abortion, but if needed I may induce early for the same purpose. I just could not go through with say a D&E because of the potential pain it would cause to my baby. With induction it is more 'normal' and would not be as traumatic to the baby.

I hate though that a small percentage of a group is generally the 'voice' of a group. Many people think pro-life and it brings up images of preotestros and pictures of dead babies. I am NOT like that at all. I understand that sometimes there is a medical need for ending a pregnancy early. I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Even before joining this group and meeting women who have had to make this decision, I felt that there was a place for medically necessary termination.
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  #16  
October 5th, 2009, 05:36 PM
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I, personally, don't know many strong or ardent pro-life proponents that categorize abortions/terminations or make distinctions for 'certain' cases. I know some stand by rare cases where the mother's life is at serious risk, but even cases of adverse prenatal dx many still believe one should carry to term. 'Medically necessary' in their definition would refer to a non-elective procedure. One where if it is not performed there poses serious risks to the mother. That isn't the case for deciding not to carry to term. Usually arguments about the baby 'suffering' or having a poor quality of life are used to validate one's position. 'Suffering' and 'poor' quality of life are also subjective. If it's fatal then where is the harm in carrying to term, I remember it being asked many times in discussions like this.

I remember one lady years ago on Fertility Friend who found out her little girl had T13. It's absolutely fatal. Most babies with T18 or T13 die in utero or hours, days and sometimes weeks after birth. The vast majority are stillborn. She chose to carry to term. There are many other stories where babies are diagnosed with other fatal conditions like bilateral renal agenesis (no kidneys). Some opt for live preterm delivery if baby's health is declining or they carry to term if things look 'well.'

These cases are almost always used as examples by ardent pro-life proponents. For an individual it might depend on the condition as to whether they are comfortable with carrying to term. Even if the baby will die before birth or soon after the end result is the same. Letting 'nature' (or whatever deity) decide seems to be the common thought when discussions like this come up.

Either way it's such a hard and heartbreaking decision. One I have evaluated many times and it still comes down to the baby's condition or what malformations/abnormalities are present. I don't think most, including pro-life proponents, are aware of most fatal conditions. I think when topics like this come up Ds pops into their mind and that's it. I honestly don't think the majority with such strong convictions would carry the same tune if they found out their baby has Limb Body Wall Complex or some other gross anomaly. I doubt they are aware of very serious and rare conditions like this. Or severe cases of Patau syndrome.
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  #17  
October 5th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Brittanie's Avatar just me
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I remember one day I was driving down the road and I was passed by a van that was owned by some pro-life group. They had plastered pictures of aborted babies all over the sides of the vehicle. This was just a couple months after I lost Cora and I wasn't pregnant with Erin yet. I had to pull over and just cry, and that WASN'T a decision I had to make!

I think the reason I wouldn't attend a protest is because I wouldn't want to be in the company of the hate and condemnation that they spew. It's not my place to condemn anyon

All I know, is I remember sitting in the waiting room at my OB's office, waiting for that fateful ultrasound. Deep down, I knew that she was gone, though we hadn't confirmed it yet. And I just sat there and pretended that everything was okay. I went to walmart afterward to pick up a prescription for a sleep aid, and I had to weather old ladies grinning at me with that expectant "oh that's so exciting!" grin, when I knew that it wasn't actually true. I wasn't getting my baby.

I don't know if I could continue, knowing I wasn't going to get my baby, but continuing to grow and be pregnant and having a baby live inside me, waiting for death.

But I equally don't know if I could decide when my baby would die myself.


I want to cry every time I think about you ladies and you having to be in that situation and make that decision.

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  #18  
October 6th, 2009, 11:31 AM
BellaBellski's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Personally I don't think Anyone is right to judge anyone else. We all do what is right for us and our families and our babies. Pro-life or Pro-choice is a personal belief and it should be kept personal. NO ONE has the right to stand out and condemn others when they have NO CLUE as to what was going on in that persons life at the time. Don't get me wrong, I do not at all believe in abortions as birth control that is extremely messed up to me - but at the same time, I can't feel what that girl is feeling. I don't know what her life is like, what the life of the baby would be like. And honestly I wouldn't want someone who didn't -want- their baby to go to drastic and barbaric measures to abort because it wasn't legal to have it done by a doctor.

All in all, it's not your life, it's not your body, it's not your baby. It doesn't effect you in any way shape or form and you have NO RIGHT to tell/preach/condemn others based on YOUR personal beliefs because your personal beliefs mean nothing. They aren't law, they aren't "right", they aren't the only way. They are just opinions.

If the real issue is that so many women really regret having abortions when they are young and end up emotionally wrecked because of it - why aren't we fighting to make it necessary to have a good counseling session & evaluation before the termination? Make them consider the weight of the decision. Making it illegal will only kill women instead, because they will go back to drastic, barbaric measures (or illegal & potentially unsafe clinics) to have the procedure performed.

Making it illegal wont stop abortions, it will only stop SAFE abortions.
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  #19  
October 6th, 2009, 01:11 PM
grlpisces's Avatar Dynamite w/ a laser beam
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I'm not looking to start a debate, but I have to admit what gets me (and it happens right here on the Abortion Debates board) is those people who say they are "pro-life ... unless there is a case of rape or incest."

I do have to question why their "pro-life"opinion of what a "human life" is changes based on the way the embryo / fetus / baby was conceived. I don't think I will find a valid answer. To me, that's called "pro-choice."

I can never understand their reason behind holding those "Abortions Kill Children" signs. Who are they targeted towards? Women who are considering abortion? If so, are any of those people in a position to counsel someone who is considering it? Are they targeted towards those who terminated a pregnancy because of a severe defect? Are they targeted towards those women who weighed in on the pros and cons of selective reduction after fertility treatments? If so, are these people educated on the outcome of carrying multiple fetuses and why sometimes, this heart-breaking choice is one that was not made lightly? When there are children out there holding these signs, has anyone educated them on safe sex practices instead of abstinence? And if one of them should become pregnant at the age of 15, knowing that she can't raise a baby, is adoption really her only solution?

Yes, people have the right to speak their minds. But their right to shove a sign in MY face ends where my uterus begins. They don't know my story, they don't know my situation, they don't know what I've been through; how can they sit there and tell me how to run my life?
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  #20  
October 6th, 2009, 01:52 PM
BellaBellski's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grlpisces View Post
I can never understand their reason behind holding those "Abortions Kill Children" signs. Who are they targeted towards? Women who are considering abortion? If so, are any of those people in a position to counsel someone who is considering it? Are they targeted towards those who terminated a pregnancy because of a severe defect? Are they targeted towards those women who weighed in on the pros and cons of selective reduction after fertility treatments? If so, are these people educated on the outcome of carrying multiple fetuses and why sometimes, this heart-breaking choice is one that was not made lightly? When there are children out there holding these signs, has anyone educated them on safe sex practices instead of abstinence? And if one of them should become pregnant at the age of 15, knowing that she can't raise a baby, is adoption really her only solution?

Yes, people have the right to speak their minds. But their right to shove a sign in MY face ends where my uterus begins. They don't know my story, they don't know my situation, they don't know what I've been through; how can they sit there and tell me how to run my life?

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