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This sensation feeling?


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  #1  
November 20th, 2009, 11:18 AM
fka teresarunningmommy
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I think I am feeling it, but really would like to get the Billings Method book in my little hands because I am not quite sure what I am supposed to be feeling. I have always I have felt "trickly" and that is usually when I got in and keep going to check for cm because I am sure it will be there. The thing is now that I am old and rusty, lol, I don't notice cm on the toilet paper even when I think I should be feeling it there. So does this sound like the sensation feeling you are talking about?
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  #2  
November 20th, 2009, 12:48 PM
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I have never checked myself internally, but I can imagine how difficult this can be to grasp. I am sure Shawna will explain this excellently, but when I am truly slippery (and gearing up to get slippery) I know it by just walking across the house or anything.

Shawna has said in the past that if you are trying to chart sensation that you shouldn't check yourself internally.
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  #3  
November 20th, 2009, 01:37 PM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teresarunningmommy View Post
I have always I have felt "trickly" and that is usually when I got in and keep going to check for cm because I am sure it will be there. The thing is now that I am old and rusty, lol, I don't notice cm on the toilet paper even when I think I should be feeling it there. So does this sound like the sensation feeling you are talking about?
That trickly feeling that inspires you to go check for CM - that's it. That's the sensation. You can feel the tiniest bit of mucus as a sensation when there might not even be enough to see on toilet paper yet. This is the earliest warning of fertility. Sounds like you've already been noticing it without knowing what it was and how significant it is. Now just continue to pay attention to it and that will increase your awareness of the sensations when they occur. Don't be alarmed if it doesn't always coincide with CM you can see. It may not and that's ok. As long as you have enough that you can feel it, you have enough.
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  #4  
November 20th, 2009, 02:53 PM
fka teresarunningmommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnaCAN View Post
That trickly feeling that inspires you to go check for CM - that's it. That's the sensation. You can feel the tiniest bit of mucus as a sensation when there might not even be enough to see on toilet paper yet. This is the earliest warning of fertility. Sounds like you've already been noticing it without knowing what it was and how significant it is. Now just continue to pay attention to it and that will increase your awareness of the sensations when they occur. Don't be alarmed if it doesn't always coincide with CM you can see. It may not and that's ok. As long as you have enough that you can feel it, you have enough.
I never *see it* any more anyways. I think because I have been charting fertility for a while to try I have gotten in tune with other O symptoms for me, but hadn't really noticed this sensation thing or put it together until just today, but I definitely have had that feeling before. I was going to ask about other O signs as well. Do most of you avoid if you have any time of symptoms that you typically have as ovulation approaches? I am assuming yes, but not sure. I know for me I usually get an increase in ovulation before O, but it usually happens several days out even before I notice any wetness or CM. (If I look through my charts it's usually been about 4 or 5 days before O.) I don't know if it's necessary to avoid, but I am going to assume yes. Whenever I notice an increase in urination though I start paying closer attention to wetness and dryness.

I am feeling like such a bozo today. This isn't as hard as I was thinking it would be. Thankfully I am going away tonight so going away should be easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavaAngel View Post
I have never checked myself internally, but I can imagine how difficult this can be to grasp. I am sure Shawna will explain this excellently, but when I am truly slippery (and gearing up to get slippery) I know it by just walking across the house or anything.

Shawna has said in the past that if you are trying to chart sensation that you shouldn't check yourself internally.
I am getting there. It is going to be hard to get me to switch my thinking. I am trying to think of it more as expanding my thinking, lol.
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  #5  
November 20th, 2009, 03:09 PM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teresarunningmommy View Post
Do most of you avoid if you have any time of symptoms that you typically have as ovulation approaches? I am assuming yes, but not sure. I know for me I usually get an increase in ovulation before O, but it usually happens several days out even before I notice any wetness or CM. (If I look through my charts it's usually been about 4 or 5 days before O.) I don't know if it's necessary to avoid, but I am going to assume yes. Whenever I notice an increase in urination though I start paying closer attention to wetness and dryness.
No, I don't go by any other signs for applying the rules. Other signs might indicate an increase in estrogen, but increased urination doesn't indicate that sperm can live in your body yet. Only the arrival of CM indicates that the plug has left your cervix and sperm can live in your body. If the plug is still in place and sperm can't live in your body, it's not necessary to abstain outside of what the rules call for. I'm not an advocate of more abstinence than is actually necessary.

Some women produce very scant CM, as in no sensation at all until 2 days before ovulation. Sperm can live up to 5 days in a woman's body, but only if the plug has left the cervix and there is CM present. Up until that happens, the woman is infertile and can freely use alternating nights to BD. So in a situation like I described, the woman is completely infertile until her CM starts 2 days before O. 3 days before O when she was still dry, she was still infertile and conception is not possible because the plug is in her cervix preventing sperm from entering. They could have sex 3 days before O and not conceive, if no sensation had started yet. From the moment there's a sensation, you're potentially fertile. As long as there is no sensation, you remain infertile.

And in cases where there is no CM at all (ZERO sensation, ZERO visible CM) - the woman is infertile and cannot conceive. She could even BD on ovulation day and will not conceive, because CM tells you the plug has left the cervix. If it doesn't leave, conception is not possible. The good news is that there are lots of ways to heal that, but as long as she isn't producing any CM at all - she is infertile in spite of healthy ovulation.

Does that make sense or did I make it more confusing?
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  #6  
November 20th, 2009, 03:12 PM
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Well I think how you avoid and when you avoid depends on what method you use and what the rules are for that method. Like for Billings, if you have a change, say wetness, that is a no day and you avoid until you have 3 dry days or 3 days of your infertile pattern after that. So for me still breastfeeding, I have patches of these all over the place! I'll have like 2 no days and then be good for a couple weeks and then have a few more no days.....it's monitoring fertility day by day and applying the rules day by day.
So I'd say yes, definitely abstain now if you are feeling something different than your normal pattern.
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  #7  
November 21st, 2009, 01:34 PM
fka teresarunningmommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnaCAN View Post

And in cases where there is no CM at all (ZERO sensation, ZERO visible CM) - the woman is infertile and cannot conceive. She could even BD on ovulation day and will not conceive, because CM tells you the plug has left the cervix. If it doesn't leave, conception is not possible. The good news is that there are lots of ways to heal that, but as long as she isn't producing any CM at all - she is infertile in spite of healthy ovulation.

Does that make sense or did I make it more confusing?
This makes perfect sense, but honestly has set a lot of worry on my mind. Okay, I have very little CM any more. I have been concerned about this even before I started ttc and now that I am trying to avoid I am still concerned about this. I used to have plenty of cm so I know that this is a drastic change for me since I was last pregnant (with a successful pregnancy). I am very concerned that this is the cause of my miscarriages. I have been concerned about it and trying to figure out the right thing to do.

The cycle that I started ttc we used OPKs and timed things perfectly, but I had very little cm (and I had noticed very little in the cycle before that where we were not trying not preventing for). Anyhow, since I was concerned about my lack of cm being the reason I didn't get pregnant the 2 cycles prior I added in Preseed and Instead Cups. I got pregnant that cycle and I used Preseed and Instead Cups last cycle as well and got pregnant.

Now after reading your post about being infertile if you have no CM even if you are ovulating that has me concerned that Preseed is not a good idea. I don't want to get pregnant just to miscarry. I would rather be infertile and not get pregnant. I am not sure what to do. I don't know if the lack of cm and miscarriage are related, but looking at the NaProtechnology site I tend to think they are. We are still sitting at least this cycle out and probably next cycle as well, but now I don't know if I should skip the Preseed.

So my two questions are you said there are ways to heal this problem. Do you personally know any info on this (if you'd prefer to take this to pm that is fine)? Do I have to see a doctor to fix these problems? I can't find a doctor near me that follows NaProtechenology and I feel like anyone that doesn't is going to just dismiss my concerns about CM. I am really ready to pull my hair out. I want to try again, but I don't want to try if I am just going to miscarry again.

My other question was about Preseed. Can something like Preseed replace CM or would I be better off not using it? I know these are fertility type questions so I wasn't sure if this was the best place to ask this, but I just don't know who else to ask or what else to do right now?

That and this sensation thing is making me nuts. I think I am all whacked up with what my body is trying to do right now. I think this is going to be the worst cycle to try and figure anything out about my body.
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  #8  
November 21st, 2009, 09:09 PM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Teresa, are you sure you're not interested in working with an instructor? I think it would really benefit you. As for the rest of your questions, will come back to them tomorrow. Had a rough funeral today and my thoughts are all over the place just now.
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  #9  
November 22nd, 2009, 07:00 AM
fka teresarunningmommy
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Originally Posted by ShawnaCAN View Post
Teresa, are you sure you're not interested in working with an instructor? I think it would really benefit you. As for the rest of your questions, will come back to them tomorrow. Had a rough funeral today and my thoughts are all over the place just now.
I wouldn't mind working with an instructor, but since we are only planning to prevent this cycle and next not sure that by the time I got something set up I would need it. Post next baby I probably will use no type of NFP except bfing. Typically I bf for a year so at best I'd be 38 before I'd have any concerns about getting pregnant again and we will probably just not try and not prevent after that. (I don't think I have that many years of fertility left so I am not that worried about NFP and should I be blessed with another one after that we are both okay with that.)
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  #10  
November 22nd, 2009, 10:59 AM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Even from the health side of things for TTC, an instructor can help you evaluate your fertility record for problems which may be contributing to the losses and such - like the quality of CM, adequacy of your follicular phase, etc. What I'm saying is it might be a good idea for TTC purposes.
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  #11  
November 22nd, 2009, 11:30 AM
fka teresarunningmommy
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If you can help me find one in my area I am all ears. The ones listed on the Fertility Care Centers page are pretty far from me unless they can work via email or telephone. I am game for someone who can work with me one to one via email or phone as well. They do offer NFP through our diocese, but only instructions in the sympto-thermal method of NFP and it looks like they are done as a class verses one on one instruction. I am not sure how beneficial a class like this will be for me since I am already familiar with reading charts and thermal shifts, but maybe it would be more helpful than I give it credit. It looks like they only offer this as a class and the next one isn't until January 25. I am hoping the books I ordered will come in and help this make more sense as well.
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  #12  
November 22nd, 2009, 02:22 PM
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I don't have a lot of answers, but I did want to say that with my son we got pregnant the 1st cycle we used Pre-seed (which we used because I never seemed to have EWCM), and obviously that was a successful pregnancy with no miscarriage, b/c he is now a chubby little 10-month-old

I wouldn't *think* that having a lack of CM or using Pre-seed would cause a miscarriage. I think lack of CM is more of a fertility issue, than a staying pregnant issue. But I'm not an expert. Hopefully Shawna has some more answers for you about that. Good luck!
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  #13  
November 22nd, 2009, 02:55 PM
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Teresa - I learned BOM from the Online Instructor because the instructors in my area were too far away and had no problems with it. WOOMB Home Page
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  #14  
November 22nd, 2009, 03:47 PM
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yeah I do BOM online as well...
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  #15  
November 22nd, 2009, 08:30 PM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teresarunningmommy View Post
Okay, I have very little CM any more. I have been concerned about this even before I started ttc and now that I am trying to avoid I am still concerned about this. I used to have plenty of cm so I know that this is a drastic change for me since I was last pregnant (with a successful pregnancy). I am very concerned that this is the cause of my miscarriages. I have been concerned about it and trying to figure out the right thing to do.

The cycle that I started ttc we used OPKs and timed things perfectly, but I had very little cm (and I had noticed very little in the cycle before that where we were not trying not preventing for). Anyhow, since I was concerned about my lack of cm being the reason I didn't get pregnant the 2 cycles prior I added in Preseed and Instead Cups. I got pregnant that cycle and I used Preseed and Instead Cups last cycle as well and got pregnant.

Now after reading your post about being infertile if you have no CM even if you are ovulating that has me concerned that Preseed is not a good idea. I don't want to get pregnant just to miscarry. I would rather be infertile and not get pregnant. I am not sure what to do. I don't know if the lack of cm and miscarriage are related, but looking at the NaProtechnology site I tend to think they are. We are still sitting at least this cycle out and probably next cycle as well, but now I don't know if I should skip the Preseed.

So my two questions are you said there are ways to heal this problem. Do you personally know any info on this (if you'd prefer to take this to pm that is fine)? Do I have to see a doctor to fix these problems? I can't find a doctor near me that follows NaProtechenology and I feel like anyone that doesn't is going to just dismiss my concerns about CM. I am really ready to pull my hair out. I want to try again, but I don't want to try if I am just going to miscarry again.

My other question was about Preseed. Can something like Preseed replace CM or would I be better off not using it? I know these are fertility type questions so I wasn't sure if this was the best place to ask this, but I just don't know who else to ask or what else to do right now?

That and this sensation thing is making me nuts. I think I am all whacked up with what my body is trying to do right now. I think this is going to be the worst cycle to try and figure anything out about my body.

OK. Finally coming back to this. Sorry for the delay Teresa!

Preseed can definitely help with sperm survival if you're not producing enough CM for that. But a lack of CM can point to other problems which may be contributing to your losses. Sperm survival is one complication that can arise from a lack of CM, but the lack of CM itself can point to a bigger problem than Preseed can fix. As long as you have enough CM to detect the changes in sensation - you have enough. But the number of days that you have it can reflect what your hormones are doing.

If the number of mucus days is too short, that can indicate that your follicular phase is too short. So when ovulation occurs, the egg is being released while it's still too immature. As a result, the resulting corpus luteum can also be insufficient and won't produce enough progesterone. Signs of that include short LP and brown premenstrual spotting or bleeding. When thinking of TTC, supplementing the LP with progesterone is one option - but it's much more important to go back and correct the problem that is occurring at ovulation in the first place (short follicular phase and the release of immature eggs). Even with progesterone support, if the egg is not mature enough at ovulation/conception, a resulting pregnancy may not have the best chances of surviving.

This is not always the case. Sometimes a lack of CM simply means the cervix is not doing it's job, but ovulation is just fine. In that case, Preseed is all you need. The quickest way to tell if there's a problem at ovulation or not is by evaluating the length of the LP. If you have an LP of at least 11 days without any brown pre-menstrual spotting, then ovulation is likely healthy and Preseed is the most appropriate course of action. If the LP is 10 days or under, or if you brown premenstrual spotting - something's off at ovulation and the lack of CM is extra evidence of that. If that's the case, you need further investigation to figure out what's going wrong at ovulation and why.

In the case of the second situation, you do need to consult with a knowledgeable physician. I think a wise first step would be to consult with an NFP instructor in either Billings or Creighton. That will help you get the charting part figured out so you can get an accurate record of your fertility. An instructor will help you assess your chart for signs of problems (we're trained for that). They'll also do some investigating with you regarding your diet, level of physical activity, medications, supplements, health history - anything and everything that might be contributing. Get a good picture of your cycle first, then you'll have something concrete to show a doctor. NaPro and NFP physicians will use your chart as a diagnostic tool and refer to it when deciding what tests you need (and also to monitor whether treatment is working or not).

NaPro doctors are very good, but if you do Billings - you can also consult with Dr. Mary Martin long distance and she's excellent. I've worked with both, personally, for my PCOS. We also learned Creighton (NaPro charting) entirely long distance. My NaPro doctor was 6 hours away, i drove to see her once and after that she was willing to work with me by phone. She just told me what tests to ask my regular doctor for and he would forward the results to her. It worked very well. Dr. Mary Martin has been doing pretty much the same thing with me by email too. I recommend going either route. We also learned primarily long distance, but I didn't know about the online course at that time. I probably would have done that had I known about it.

Does this answer your questions? My top recommendation is to work with a teacher to master the charting part first. Then based on what your charting shows, consult with NaPro, an NFP doctor, or Dr. Mary Martin.
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  #16  
November 23rd, 2009, 07:48 AM
fka teresarunningmommy
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Thanks Shawna and yes that does answer my question and was kind of what I thought the answers were. At this point, I think we are going to sit out this cycle, but we might not avoid next cycle. I haven't decided yet. I think next cycle we will probably just see what happens and should I have another m/c I will probably be pming you to see if I can find someone to work with remotely. I may even try contacting the Napro clinic in Omaha. I am hoping these books come in the next couple days. I thought charting to conceive would help me more with charting to avoid. They are similar, but really they are quite different.
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  #17  
November 23rd, 2009, 07:54 AM
ShawnaCAN's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Yes, they are quite different.
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