[baabaamilker]

Hello,

I've visited this forum a couple of times and always when trying to conceive and having issues. I never did get real serious about charting my fertility until I began having issues with maintaining a pregnancy after baby #8, before that I just casually checked my mucus since we had no intention of abstaining.

After three repeat miscarriages I began to wonder what was going on. So I started charting everything that I could. A major move across the continent kept me from keeping the careful notes I would have liked to though. So after three miscarriages I began taking Vitex and was able to conceive and carry a baby though only to 35 weeks. I also spotted that entire first trimester until my placenta began to take over, which is very unusual for me. I figured once my cycles returned that I would then began charting, however, without even knowing it we got pregnant on the first ovulation, but again I miscarried.

So I am now about 5 days past my second ovulation since baby #9 began to wean. I have a confusing situation. First here's a link to my chart. 202001 Ovulation charts on FertilityFriend.com

I was getting some very snotty looking mucus that would stretch for at least two inches on days 11-12. I thought it could be considered fertile since it was so stretchy. However, my cervix signs didn't show up as ovulating and they are usually pretty reliable. However, since we were trying and didn't want to miscarry again I waited for just a few more days and then began taking Natural Progesterone Cream. Well, lo and behold if the real ovulation (or at least I think it was rea)l didn't show up on days 15,16 and 17. This time complete with wonderful EWCM including a day of it the stuff was tough as silly putty. The cervix also cooperated and showed ovulation was imminent. I figured by then it was too late to stop the progesterone, so I continued.

Before I go further I have to tell you that most of my fertility tracking is done manually on paper so i don't have much past to show you. However, most everytime I've had an ovulation my temps did not go up until 5-7 days after the ovulation (again a sign that something is wrong with progesterone, very possibly something wrong with the creation of a strong corpus luteum)

As you can see my temps have no intention of climbing just yet. Every time they take that 97.2 jump I keep thinking the next day will be higher, but then they plunge down below 97 the following day.

If anyone remembers me from before you know that I've shared how I experience pregnancy symptoms and sometimes those symptoms are directly after intercourse. I know it seems impossible and most say it is related to progesterone. However, after intercourse that conceived baby #8 by vagina swelled in its usually intercourse fashion but it never went back down to its previous conception size until, of course, after I had that baby. There are other things with other pregnancies where I just new. Also, with the multiple consecutive miscarriages I had I knew with each of them, most only last for three weeks, but every time I told my husband that I was pregnant. He being a 13 year phlebotomist would draw my blood and do a blood test and sure enough.

So all of that said I am experiencing symptoms again and stronger than most times which I'm attributing to the NPC. I've only used the NPC one other time after OV and never experienced symptoms like these. However, I will not deny the possibility that all of the pregnancy symptoms could be attributed to the NPC, especially since my temps don't seem to want to come up. There's just one symptom I'm not sure the NPC could create and that would the extremely bloated lower abdomen which is characteristic of my early pregnancy symptoms.

I have a little bit a of a fear that twice my body geared up to ovulate and neither time it did, the first because it wasn't ready yet, the second because of the progesterone cream. I do have a plan though because if I am pregnant I do not want to drop the progesterone cream only to loose the baby as I'm sure my body is dependent on it at the moment.

So my plan is for my husband to draw my blood on Monday (8dpo), hoping to get a positive, if so continue the progesterone cream. If I get a negative then have him draw it on 10 dpo and if it negative, begin to wean my body off of the progesterone so it can do its natural work.

I'm just wondering what you all, especially any natural fertility teachers here think of this. Do you have much experience with a woman who has had multiple children and charting? I wouldn't have a clue what might be a normal pattern for women who've had so many children.

I'm open to all opinions and weighing them to help make the best decision if you think that my decisions concerning what appears to be a dilemma is off. This is obviously a mistake I made thinking that my body ovulated already instead of patiently waiting for the real EWCM.

Sorry for the book but I just love charting and all the scientific things that go on with our body and I could talk anyone's ear off about it.

I'm getting ready to read Dr. John R. Lee's book on PreMenopause as I seem to be experiencing some symptoms of things he describes in his book such as the recurrent miscarriages, hair beginning to grow on my face, and the brown blotches that are appearing on my face, even though I'm only 34. Lots of fun.

Speaking of such things how would I go about learning to become a teacher of the method? I'm particularly interested in the NFP method.

Thanks for reading if you made it all the way through.

[baabaamilker]

Another important fact I need to add is that I've been taking Vitex since day 5 of my cycle.

[ShawnaCAN]

I think you've already identified the importance of not starting the progesterone cream until you are SURE that ovulation has occurred. It's very normal to have mucus builds up that don't result in ovulation when you are post partum. It's also very normal for your body to take at least 6 months for your fertility to regulate after weaning. The post partum transition can also take longer in our 30's than it may have in our 20's; regardless of how many children we have. A short Luteal Phase is also COMPLETELY normal during the first 6 post partum cycles. It usually takes some time for that to resolve on it's own, but if it's still a problem after 6 - 8 cycles; then it's time to see about treating it. The post partum return of fertility is not something that can easily be rushed, the body just needs time.

Low progesterone is a sign that there is a problem during the follicular phase (the development of the egg). If the egg is too immature when it's released, then the Corpus Luteum is weak and doesn't produce enough progesterone. The lack of progesterone can cause miscarriage, but having conceived with an immature egg can cause it too. Sometimes supplementing with progesterone is the appropriate treatment, sometimes other treatments that help the egg reach full maturity are more appropriate (and that will automatically correct the progesterone problem anyway).

As for becoming an NFP teacher, which type of NFP are you interested in? There are several different kinds! The Creighton Model and the Billings Ovulation Method get very in depth with the cervical mucus, so no other signs are necessary. The Sympto Thermal Method includes a basic understanding of the mucus, basal temperatures, and the option to check one's cervix. There are several different versions of the Sympto Thermal Method.

Where are you located? I can tell you which NFP organizations are in your area, that might help you figure out which one to train with as a teacher!

[baabaamilker]

I like the idea of an all inclusive charting so would mostly likely enjoy learning to teach the Sympto Thermal Method. However, I feel like I'm most in tune with my fertility through cervical mucus and I initially learned the Creighton Model. I guess of the two I would enjoy the Stympto Thermal Method as that is what I'm using at the moment.

I was able to have my progesterone tested several days after ovulation at a time when I knew I was pregnant and it turned into a miscarriage. My progesterone was very low. I'm with you in believing that it is a problem with the corpus luteum and the Vitex really helped with that last time though I did spot for the first trimester.

I guess at this point in my cycle I just need to see how everything turns out with the pregnancy test coming up soon. Should there be a need for next time, I need to do a better job with paying attention to making sure I ovulated. I have some OPK's ready to add to my charting list just for that. I've never used them before though.

Oh, and I'm currently overseas with the military. I was curious if there might be anyone here. I'm in Kaiserslautern, Germany. We should be getting back to the states in a year and a half and hoping to be going to Lawton, OK.

[ShawnaCAN]

Northwest Family Services offers online training for becoming a Sympto Thermal Method instructor. NFP Teacher Training

[LJD3Tdance]

Looks like you've got a lot of good info and a good start.

[baabaamilker]

Thanks Shawna, I emailed them about their course. That would work out perfect. I run into women all the time struggling with their fertility but having no idea how to track their cycles to determine the cause if possible. It would be great to be able to help them as a certified teacher as there is so much more to learn past my own charts and cycles.

Here's something interesting. So last night before I went to bed I began to cramp pretty good. This morning my temp finally broke the coverline. Looking back at my chart, if that cramping was indeed implantation then I ovulated on the day that I thought most likely and not the last day of EWCM, but it was the day that the best EWCM and the cervix agreed with one another. However, I guess should this indeed be pregnancy the prospect of keeping this little one might not be so good with such a weak corpus luteum.

On the bright side it took six days before I was able to get a temperature read above the coverline with my last baby who I was able to maintain the pregnancy of. Yet, the downside of that was that I had two days of unreliable temps and eight days I didn't temp at all before I got the above coverline temp for that cycle.

It's a wait and see game as usual.

[baabaamilker]

I was wondering are vaginal temps more reliable?

[ShawnaCAN]

Vaginal temps can be more consistent, because they are less affected by outside variables.

[ShawnaCAN]

?????????

[baabaamilker]

Ok, took the pregnancy blood test today and it is positive. I only got the one higher temp than normal and then they went back down. Today's temp is the lowest that I usually get.

Interesting isn't it? I guess my chances of keeping this baby, at least according to temps, wouldn't be all that great.

I will keep up with the progesterone cream, and let you all know how this turns out.

[rlh27]

Congratulations! Sending lots of sticky dust!!!!

[ShawnaCAN]

Congratulations!!! Do you have access to a good doctor who could prescribe a higher dose of progesterone to support the pregnancy?

[baabaamilker]

I do have access to a doctor/s but can they prescribe natural progesterone in a higher dose? I'm not sure I want to take a synthetic. Debating.

[ShawnaCAN]

Yes, you can get natural progesterone in suppository, pill, and injection form. The cream delivers a small dose of progesterone, enough to help support the LP - but not necessarily enough for supporting a pregnancy if the prog. deficiency is significant.

[baabaamilker]

ok, great thanks. I'm going to call them tomorrow to get an appointment. Appreciate all your help.

[baabaamilker]

Well, lets just say I have access to doctors as opposed to good doctors. I am unfortunately, having to use military doctors. So here's what they say.

"We don't give progesterone to women that early in their pregnancy because we have found that women who loose pregnancies that early are usually due to genetic issues."

I said," So at what point do you give progesterone?"

They say, "We usually wait until the second trimester to make sure that the fetus is viable."

So that's that. At this point I don't want to pursue anything else with them or present them with facts about progesterone deficiency or that the placenta makes the progesterone in the second trimester so at that point it would be an issue with the placenta.

My experience with military Dr's have never been positive. I do have the option of changing my insurance allowing me to go off post to a German doctor but I need to think that over and talk it over with my husband as that will mean having to pay a percentage of the bills.

I'll still keep you all posted. Right now I think should I (and it seems likely I will) miscarry then we will skip the next cycle and try again after that. It seemed to work last time when moving overseas forced us to have to skip a cycle, then I was able to get pregnant with the last baby, though I did spot the entire first trimester.

[rlh27]

What an idiot doctor! Oh it makes me so mad that our military and their families have the worst healthcare. Grrr... I'm so sorry. I hope this little bean sticks!

[ShawnaCAN]

Oh my, how clueless!!! Prayers for a sticky baby!

[baabaamilker]

Thanks guys!