[*KittyCat*]

Do they always tie up together to pin point O? Is one better than the other?

[Kelllilee]

it depends. For some people (like me) OPKs are not accurate. They measure a hormone your body produces when you are about to ovulate, not when you DO. So if your body attempts to ovulate, but isn't successful, you'll still get a + OPK, but no actual ovulation.

Temps are more accurate than OPKs for *most* women IMO.

But, temps don't tell you until after the fact, while OPKs can tell you before hand.

[~Angela~]

it depends. For some people (like me) OPKs are not accurate. They measure a hormone your body produces when you are about to ovulate, not when you DO. So if your body attempts to ovulate, but isn't successful, you'll still get a + OPK, but no actual ovulation.

Temps are more accurate than OPKs for *most* women IMO.

But, temps don't tell you until after the fact, while OPKs can tell you before hand.[/b]

Very well put - that's why I have started using both!

[ShawnaCAN]

Neither! OPK's only predict O, but they don't confirm if it's successful. Temps only confim O after the fact, they don't predict it. CM does both! CM is the most ccurate because it predicts when you are trying to O and confirms O when it happens. By learning to evaluate the mucus pattern, you can tell the difference between a CM build-up that did not result in ovulation and a CM build up that does result in ovulation. One fertility sign, prediction and confirmation all in one.

[Kelllilee]

Neither! OPK's only predict O, but they don't confirm if it's successful. Temps only confim O after the fact, they don't predict it. CM does both! CM is the most ccurate because it predicts when you are trying to O and confirms O when it happens. By learning to evaluate the mucus pattern, you can tell the difference between a CM build-up that did not result in ovulation and a CM build up that does result in ovulation. One fertility sign, prediction and confirmation all in one.[/b]

I dont' agree with that. I get fertile CM multiple times per cycle and rarely actually ovulate. How can CM confirm you've ovulated? You could say that it confirms it if you stop producing the fertile CM, but when you stop and start that frequently without actually ovulating, it doesn't. I think CM and OPKs run along the same lines as far as accuracy in predicting and confirming ovulation.

[*KittyCat*]

It's cause i got a +ive OPK, but as yet my temps aren't indicating I o'd. I wondered if i might have had an dodgy temp one day cause sometimes i sleep with my mouth open!

[~Angela~]

I don't think evaluating CM works for everyone. I am pretty sure I ovulated Sun or Mon, but I never got fertile CM. Of course the chances of concieving are very low, but, I will know when to expect AF this month at the very least.

I figure using the OPK's are good because they can pinpoint the best time to BD, even if it's multiple times throughout the cycle (if your body tries multiple times to O with no success), and tracking the temp can tell you when it's time to relax.

[Kelllilee]

It's cause i got a +ive OPK, but as yet my temps aren't indicating I o'd. I wondered if i might have had an dodgy temp one day cause sometimes i sleep with my mouth open![/b]

are you sure it was positive? I dont' want to be rude, but sometimes OPKs can be misread. that's another problem with them, they are somewhat interpretive. Was the second line as dark or darker than the control line?

Cat your opk def looked + when you posted it. It's annoying that your temps aren't co-operating Hows your CM?

[Kelllilee]

okay, went and looked and I agree, it looks like a + OPK to me too.

But looking at your last chart, your temps didn't have a high shift like some do. You may just have lower post-O temps, which is fine.

Do you temp orally or vaginally? If you temp orally and sleep with your mouth open that can affect your temps.

[ShawnaCAN]

I get fertile CM multiple times per cycle and rarely actually ovulate. )[/b]

Yup, me too (thanks PCOS).

How can CM confirm you've ovulated? You could say that it confirms it if you stop producing the fertile CM, but when you stop and start that frequently without actually ovulating, it doesn't. I think CM and OPKs run along the same lines as far as accuracy in predicting and confirming ovulation.[/b]

You evaluate the whole pattern of CM, based on the work of Dr. Erik Odeblad. If the CM episode goes theses three stages (based on observing CM according to what you feel and what you happen to see), you can confirm O when the CM:

1. Develops and changes over a matter of days
2. Becomes slippery
3. Dries up abruptly

If it doesn't go through all 3 of those steps in that order, it was just an attempt at ovulation which wasn't successful. If it does go through all of those steps, ovulation was successful. If you have any confusion about how that all works, it's best to have personalized support from a certified charting instructor because each woman's CM patterns will be unique to her. A teacher can show you how to interpret your own unique CM episodes so you can tell the false alarms from real O. You can' really evalute the pattern from FF charts because they simply aren't comprehensive enough. They don't need to be, with the temp as back up you only need the basics of CM information. But to use CM alone, you need more information about it that FF offers.

[Kelllilee]

i still don't think CM alone is accurate. I go through all three stages quite often. Builds up, gets slippery, and then dries up, but I dont' ovulate.

[ShawnaCAN]

i still don't think CM alone is accurate. I go through all three stages quite often. Builds up, gets slippery, and then dries up, but I dont' ovulate.[/b]

I used to think the same thing about my cycles, but then I took a course from a certified charting instructor and she helped me evalute my CM patterns in much more detail so that I learned to tell the difference between an ovulation "warm up" and the real thing. Have you ever had a consultation with a doctor, nurse, or charting instructor who specializes in CM evaluation? Hundreds of thousands of women around the world use CM only to identify ovulation for the purposes of avoiding pregnancy with an efficiancy rate of 99%, based on the research of Drs. Erik Odeblad and James Brown on cervical mucus and it's relationship to ovulation. There has been a lot of research into it, the most recent study included 156 400 women. You can read the science of it all for yourself:

Cervical Mucus and Related Vaginal Discharges
http://www.woomb.org/bom/science/fertility.html#mucus

The Discovery of Different Types of Cervical Mucus
http://www.woomb.org/omrrca/bulletin/vol21...discovery.shtml

[*KittyCat*]

okay, went and looked and I agree, it looks like a + OPK to me too.

But looking at your last chart, your temps didn't have a high shift like some do. You may just have lower post-O temps, which is fine.

Do you temp orally or vaginally? If you temp orally and sleep with your mouth open that can affect your temps.[/b]

I temp orally ATM, but sometimes i wake with a dry mouth, so i'm pretty sure i sleep with my mouth open. I think next month i might try it vaginally.

[Kelllilee]

I used to think the same thing about my cycles, but then I took a course from a certified charting instructor and she helped me evalute my CM patterns in much more detail so that I learned to tell the difference between an ovulation "warm up" and the real thing. Have you ever had a consultation with a doctor, nurse, or charting instructor who specializes in CM evaluation? Hundreds of thousands of women around the world use CM only to identify ovulation for the purposes of avoiding pregnancy with an efficiancy rate of 99%, based on the research of Drs. Erik Odeblad and James Brown on cervical mucus and it's relationship to ovulation. There has been a lot of research into it, the most recent study included 156 400 women. You can read the science of it all for yourself:

Cervical Mucus and Related Vaginal Discharges
http://www.woomb.org/bom/science/fertility.html#mucus

The Discovery of Different Types of Cervical Mucus
http://www.woomb.org/omrrca/bulletin/vol21...discovery.shtml
[/b]

read through both of those. The second was very technical and didn't really give me any information. So I looked up the Billings Method, which I have only a slight knowledge of. Read through the entire site. They seem very cynical and make a lot of annoying blanket statements, so I had a hard time reading it without an equally cynical outlook. I got through it anyway.

While I agree that *some* women are able to track ovulation this way, I refuse to believe every woman can. And no, I've not talked to a certified Charting expert, we dont' live in such a progressive nation like you do and I've never heard of one here, nor can I find one in searching around.

Anyway, I don't think it would work for me, because it would require me to track my CM for probably YEARS before I could actually confirm an ovulation. I already track my CM and I know how that works. I can't get any more in depth unless I own a microscope, which I don't. They seem to have no solutions if you just don't ovulate. They say it can help with conception... well, how is THAT supposed to work? you can't conceive if you don't ovulate, and they make it seem like you shouldn't do anything *gasp* "medical" to help get pregnant.
Maybe it's just the Billings Method that's that way, but I got really irritated reading about that...

maybe I should have waited to post until I wasn't upset anymore, but oh well...

[ShawnaCAN]

While I agree that *some* women are able to track ovulation this way, I refuse to believe every woman can.[/b]

I will believe that when I see it. I've never met a client who couldn't learn to track their ovulation this way, but many who thought they wouldn't be able to before they learned how. I'm willing to believe it when I see it though. We can agree to disagree that it's possible.

And no, I've not talked to a certified Charting expert, we dont' live in such a progressive nation like you do and I've never heard of one here, nor can I find one in searching around.[/b]

The US is not a progressive nation? Your location thing says Washington State? I'm confused. There are lots of instructors there - not just in Billings, but also the Creighton Model which is a medical CM classification system, with it's own physicians and practitioners that specialize in helping infertility clients by using the CM patterns as a diagnostic tool in figuring out what's wrong.

Anyway, I don't think it would work for me, because it would require me to track my CM for probably YEARS before I could actually confirm an ovulation. I already track my CM and I know how that works. I can't get any more in depth unless I own a microscope, which I don't.[/b]

All I'm saying is don't knock it unless you've actually tried it. Tracking the CM is the easy part, learning to interpret the difference between a build up that results in Peak and one that doesn't is what I'm talking about. If no one has ever taught you how to do that, then how do you know it's imposible? I have the exact same problem - lots of build ups, infrequent ovulation, and complicated CM patterns. I also thought I wouldn't be able to rely on CM alone to tell the difference, but once I learned it was actually really simple. It was just a different way of observing CM than I hasd been doing before. You don't need a microscope or years of experience, just the training to do it. That's all. I can respect if you just would prefer not to learn, that's totally fine! The temps are another way of confirming the differenc so that a more in depth understanding of the CM isn't necessary, but scientifically speaking - the research shows that CM is a reliable way to identify ovulation. We've used it to conceive 5 times now, in spite of my PCOS.

They seem to have no solutions if you just don't ovulate. They say it can help with conception... well, how is THAT supposed to work? you can't conceive if you don't ovulate, and they make it seem like you shouldn't do anything *gasp* "medical" to help get pregnant.[/b]

It's not meant to make you ovulate, it's meant to help you identify when it's happening so you can maximize your chances of conception by tracking your fertility. This is especially important when ovulation is infrequent, because how many couples miss the opportunity completely because they don't know when to try? That is how it helps with conception. It's not a system that *treats* infertility, it's a tracking system so you can monitor what's already going on. When problems arise, the Billings Method or any other charting system isn't meant to be a substitute for medical assistance.

But why don't we just agree to disagree about it then? It's not worth an argument. I stand behind the science of this method, you stand behind your personal experience...so we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry for any hurt my words have caused you.

[Kelllilee]

I don't have a problem "missing" ovulations. out of the 6 ovulations I've had in the last 5 years, 2 have resulted in prenancies. The first few were a learning curve for me. Once I figured it out, I dont' have a problem with that.

but whatever... off to shed my tears alone

[ShawnaCAN]

I was editing my post to include one last paragraph, looks like it must have been at the same time you were posting. This part:

But why don't we just agree to disagree about it then? It's not worth an argument. I stand behind the science of this method, you stand behind your personal experience...so we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry for any hurt my words have caused you.

[Kelllilee]

it's fine, I'm just having a really bad over-emotional day today. I'm taking it as a sign AF is coming, I hope.

I'm not usually so snippy or argumentative.

and..... cue tears (again)

[ShawnaCAN]

it's fine, I'm just having a really bad over-emotional day today. I'm taking it as a sign AF is coming, I hope.[/b]

I hope something happens for you too. If you've been able to conceive 2 out of 6 ovulations, those are really good odds! It just sucks having to wait so long in between those O's, doesn't it? I know how that feels.