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Ina Gaskin; natural vrs home birth


Forum: Natural Childbirth

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  #21  
December 1st, 2011, 04:28 PM
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You'd have to be pretty thick to not admit ignorance over something you don't completely understand. I'm ignorant over many things, auto mechanics, structural engineering, biotechnology, wild edibles in the sub-saharan ecology... Some things I USED to be ignorant about, tiling, home framing, wire jewelry making, mountaineering, technical rock climbing, helicoptor underwater escape training.. Ignorance implies the ability to learn and expand ones horizons.
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  #22  
December 1st, 2011, 05:04 PM
Tiki's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer8080 View Post
I absolutely believe that you can have a natural birth at a hospital. Like the pp mentioned, some women don't feel comfortable having a home birth. That doesn't meant they are any less committed to a natural birth. Everyone's interpretations are different, and for some women, there is no choice but a hospital birth. A friend of mine planned to give birth at a freestanding birth center, but her water broke at 35 weeks, which legally prevents her from birthing there. She had a completely drug and intervention free birth at a hospital. She doesn't think of it as not being "natural." I think that setting yourself up for the belief that the only way you can have a "natural" birth is at home could be setting you up for problems. You never know when a transfer might be required. Yes, our bodies are made to do this, BUT that doesn't mean it NEVER happens. Also, in some areas it's just not possible for some women to have a home birth with a skilled midwife. If they are forced to go with a hospital or birth center, it doesn't make their birth any less natural.
Pretty much exactly this I had a natural child birth in the hospital. The only other option available to be would be to have a UC birth, I don't consider this a good option for a first birth. Also the dictionary defines natural as in accordance with human nature and determined by inborn conviction. These both fit well with the thought that a natural child birth can be had anywhere if the woman believes it is possible. I also don't feel that some medically necessary interventions take away from it. It depends on how the woman feels about the intervention as well, it is all how it is precieved in the heart of the person giving birth.
Edited for spelling
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Last edited by Tiki; December 1st, 2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #23  
December 1st, 2011, 06:04 PM
Mom.to.PinknBlue's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
Pretty much exactly this I had a natural child birth in the hospital. The only other option available to be would be to have a UC birth, I don't consider this a good option for a first birth. Also the dictionary defines natural as in accordance with human nature and determined by inborn conviction. These both fit well with the thought that a natural child birth can be had any where if they woman believes it is possible. I also don't feel that some medically necessary interventions take away from it. It depends on how the woman feels about the intervention as well, it is all how it is precieved in the heart of the person giving birth.
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  #24  
December 1st, 2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudPregnancy View Post
Chica, your birth experience is your own... I'm not here to tell you ANYTHING about it. Perhaps you are glad to have had a midwive close to you in those times, perhaps you learned something in that experience to share?

I have no definate rules at all. Like i've stated many other times, This is my first pregnancy and I'm truly the ignorant one.

Twylite, It's so amazing to me that women can have such different birth experiences. I'm certainly going to be hopeful to have simular birth experiences as yourself!
but didnt you previously state that a natural childbirth cannot happen in a hospital, or any setting other than home?

i did have two pretty great experiences..why? because i educated myself, knew my options, and knew what and why my midwife was doing what she was doing (induction for HELLP disease at 37w)

But you just can't go around belittling women, discounting their feelings, their hopes, their desires....if a person wants to have a natural birth WHY badger it to the point of "well you CANT have a truly natural birth in a hospital setting"..it's like calling them a failure before they even try.
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  #25  
December 2nd, 2011, 06:58 AM
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Have your kid and then come back and tell me all about natural childbirth
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  #26  
December 2nd, 2011, 07:48 AM
BoobyDutyAgainJen's Avatar Proud Mom & Birth Mom
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I am just reading this now and am curious why you phrased things the way you did. It seems to me if someone were trying to educate themselves they wouldn't approach it in such an attacking manner. I call troll.


Just because it is an interesting conversation when you take the attack out I'll comment. I do think that location that leads to a positive mindset is crucial for a NCB. Feeling acceptance, love, the right balance of touch/involvement from people around, etc makes a person have that mindset needed for NCB. Is NCB harder often times for people in the hospital? Yes! However, it IS possible.
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  #27  
December 2nd, 2011, 07:53 AM
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Her activity in her DDC would indicate troll too. She started a thread on birth and birth places and then came into it 3 more times, posting in a slightly more offensive manner each time, attempting to goad people into a fight, which eventually worked. It's in the troll handbook.

But sadly? I know people like her in real life and online. They do exist.

Oh, and I think it's hilarious she was attempting to school one of our members on linguistics via PM, when on the forum she pretends she has no idea how anyone would read her words as offensive and inflammatory. It's just. too. funny.
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  #28  
December 2nd, 2011, 12:13 PM
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I'm just curious Proud, how would you feel if you had a home birth and had an emergency, or even a non emergency, transfer? Even if you delivered the baby without interventions or meds, would you consider it not a NCB because you ended up at the hospital?
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  #29  
December 2nd, 2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twhylite21 View Post
I'm just curious Proud, how would you feel if you had a home birth and had an emergency, or even a non emergency, transfer? Even if you delivered the baby without interventions or meds, would you consider it not a NCB because you ended up at the hospital?
Great questions! I cannot say for sure, and that it would depend on if it was an emergency transfer. I suppose an emergency transfer would spike my stress levels and affect labor somehow. I think if I ended up in the hospital and still didn't have the use of meds or interventions I may consider it more of a 'med-free birth' depending on how I felt about it afterward.

I'm certainly thankful that hospitals are in place for moments like these.. There is no doubt. I also want to try and prevent that from happening if possible! Its really difficult to know just how you would feel about something that you've never experienced before, you know? Which is precisely why I brough it up to begin with.. I was curous what others had to say that have experience.

BTW
"But sadly? I know people like her in real life and online. They do exist."

For all the touting, some of you seem increasingly rude and judgemental...
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  #30  
December 2nd, 2011, 01:02 PM
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I just think it's important to consider a what if situation, just in case. I know a lot of women who had a birth (whether at home, birth center, hospital, etc) and because it didn't go according to plan, they dealt with a lot of issues over it.

Even with me, I had a good home birth with Violet in the sense that it was successful, etc. But she twisted during pushing and ended up presenting face first (different from face up). Her eye was the first thing I pushed out and her head was twisted sideways. It happens in less than 1% of births and she was stuck for 3 hours in the birth canal. My midwives were very close to calling for a transfer because her heart rate was dropping and staying low, I was hyperventilating, etc. I deal with a lot of sadness over her birth, even though it was something I couldn't have prevented anyway. Yes, I had a healthy baby in the end, but my birth experience wasn't what I wanted entirely either. Just things to think about

Also, what if you have a breech presentation, will your midwives deliver that or does it depend on how they're positioned? What if you go earlier than 36 weeks? What if you go past 42 weeks? There are a lot of variables that I think are important to consider. I would hate for anyone to have the heart set on a home birth and then have something arise that prevents that. We can all plan as much as we want, but we can't control our birth 100% either.
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  #31  
December 2nd, 2011, 01:30 PM
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[/QUOTE]
Also, what if you have a breech presentation, will your midwives deliver that or does it depend on how they're positioned? What if you go earlier than 36 weeks? What if you go past 42 weeks? There are a lot of variables that I think are important to consider. I would hate for anyone to have the heart set on a home birth and then have something arise that prevents that. We can all plan as much as we want, but we can't control our birth 100% either.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the response. Even though your daughter's birth didnt go as planned, I suppose what I love about your birth story so much is maybe not calm, but level headed you seem to be about the whole process. I get the feeling that planning as much as you can, and just riding the wave of labor minute by minute and accepting things as they come is ultimately the path I want to chose!

Those were great questions to consider too. From my understanding, my midwife has and will deliver breech depending on whats happening in the moment and her level of comfort. We have an agreement that when one of us says "hospital," hospital it is!

36 wks IS the cuttoff line too. If I go any earlier, it is hospital birth. (Luckily we are moving to a small town that supposidly has a GREAT birth center at the hospital, so we still need to visit there!)

I've had pretty extensive conversations with my midwives so far and feel a great deal of trust and respect towards them. I feel very fortunate because of this! We are also just 5 mi from the hospital just in the event we need to get there.

Ooooh I did have one more question for you too!!! Did you find an kind of stretches, yoga poses etc that either helped or hindered your daughters position in the end?

Thanks again!
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  #32  
December 2nd, 2011, 01:37 PM
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If someone walks in my house (that I share with lots of other women, lol, but I have been here FIVE years) and is rude and judgmental from the moment she walks in the door, INSULTS everyone, and then pretends she didn't and we just misread -- I have no qualms being rude and judgmental back. If you at any point decide to be reasonable and nice, I will be reasonable and nice back.

And yes, I know people like you in real life. Who spout endlessly about things they do not actually understand, refuse to consider valid alternatives, insult those who do not feel the same. Who believe there is only one correct view of things and that they are superior for having it. And after my homebirth turned into a cesarean?!?! OMG HOLY COW did those people show the depths of their antagonism and narcissism. Because I had done everything right and not ended up with a perfect birth, I did not fit in their paradigm anymore. You act just like them. I have lots of experience with people like you.

And you can go blah, blah, I wouldn't, I didn't, you're assuming things. And I am. But it is the WAY THAT YOU TALK TO PEOPLE. Like I have been saying, there is a REASON everyone reacts to you the way they do. It is HOW YOU TALK TO THEM. Every other girl I have ever seen walk onto this board or into a DDC has received a warm welcome. You are the exception, because of the hostile and antagonistic way you speak to people.
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  #33  
December 2nd, 2011, 04:20 PM
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I've actually met Ina May Gaskin and went to a seminar by her before. I think often times her words get skewed by interpeters (sp). She actually rarely says natural childbirth, instead she talks about physiological birth which is letting labor and birth happen the way it's ment to be. Which is possible in any birthing setting.

Many places in America are not set up to let labor and birth just happen. Many times they are only trained hands on and so that is how they practice (nurses and Doctors alike). However, I have had many clients give birth in the hospital without any interventions at all (except fetoscope here and there) and I would say that is natural or atleast physiological. It is possible, you just need a supporting birth team.
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  #34  
December 2nd, 2011, 04:27 PM
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This got fun.

Anyway. Giving you the benifit of the doubt - I've been listening to th podcasts - lovely! I would very VERY strongly suggest you read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth cover to cover.
For ME - I feel more comfortable and natural at home. I can't imagine giving birth at a hospital. I still think it's natural child birth - I just think it would be a struggle for me. I also think every woman has the RIGHT to birth where she is comfortable (risk etc considered)
I think maybe some of your ideas have come from Ina May defending women's right to home birth. She explains why it's better (for some people).
Anyway - read her books - and try not to make such tight definitions for yourself. You don't want to set yourself up to feel like you've failed.
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  #35  
December 7th, 2011, 01:19 PM
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I guess one of my questions for the original poster would be, why is there a need to label a birth? I feel like women become attached to this label of "natural birth", and all of the expectations that are tied to that label. As many of the other ladies have pointed out, birth is incredibly unpredictable. A woman can go into it with the best intentions and wind up having an experience very different than what she planned. I think the most important thing to consider is whether or not the woman is happy with her birth-- did she do everything she could to have the birth she wanted, was she informed, did she make the right decisions for her and her baby, was she in an environment she was comfortable in... the list goes on and on. The point being, attaching yourself to this natural birth label and touting it as the ideal is just plain naive and impractical, and you are setting yourself up for a world of heartache if something does not go according to the natural birth plan.

Also, speaking from personal experience (not JM experience, FB experience), it is incredibly offensive and hurtful when someone insinuates that your birth wasn't natural because of some set of standards. This topic has been discussed a number of times on this board, and this is the only time I've seen it turn argumentative (though I've only been around for less than a year).
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