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Debate:Did Jesus ever claim to be God?


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  #1  
September 21st, 2012, 10:36 AM
Countrymom4's Avatar Chrystal
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What do you think ?
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  #2  
September 24th, 2012, 09:43 AM
mamaginger's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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The Gospel of John speaks the most about Jesus' deity. Jesus isn't God the Father. They are "one" but they are separate beings. (also the Holy Spirit is one with them but a separate being). Here's what the Bible says:

In John 14 Jesus is telling the disciples about "going to prepare a place" for them and that he is "the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." In verse 7 he says "If you had known me, you would have known my Father ALSO. From now on you do know HIM and have seen Him." (<---Jesus referring to the Father here)
Then Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father and Jesus responds in verses 9-10:

"Whoever has seen ME has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me?...Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves."

Down in verse 26 he's talking about going away (back to heaven) and says "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the FATHER will send in MY name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." <--------This is a great verse showing the 3 distinct beings: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There is a Father in heaven who Jesus will go to at his resurrection and Jesus will be gone from the earth but the Father sends the Holy Spirit in his place (until Jesus' return).

In verse 28 Jesus says "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I." <----This shows also Jesus is saying there is someone greater than him that he is going to. He's not going to himself. He's going to the Father.

Ok but then you have John chapter 1 which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS GOD. He was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." That's verses 1-3 and then down in verse 14 it tells who "the Word" is: "And the Word became FLESH and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only SON from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, 'THIS was HE of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.')"

So verses 1-3 say that Jesus (the Word) was already in existence in "the beginning"....that he was WITH God.....and that he WAS God. This may be confusing and I think it's just because we're human and like the disciple, Philip, above....we just don't really "get it." Jesus seemed to think it was silly that Philip asked him to show them the Father as if it should have been obvious to them that they had already seem the Father in Him.

This is why there is so much confusion between different christian denominations about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. People have made up terms like "Trinity" and "Godhead" to try to explain it. It doesn't matter what you call it. If you read the Bible, you just have to take it for what it says. It says they are "one" but it's clear that they are also 3 separate beings. The way I think about it is like a man and woman becoming "one" in marriage. They are one but they are still two separate people.

Hebrews 1: 3 says of Jesus "He is the radiance of the glory of God and the EXACT imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power." Down in verse 8 it says "But of the SON he (God the Father) says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...." <----God just called Jesus God right there.

You are probably familiar with the burning bush story in Exodus 3. God the Father is speaking to Moses and wants him to go to the Pharaoh of Egypt to free the Israelite slaves and Moses doesn't want to be the one to go do it and is worried about what he will say to the Israelites. He seems to think they will test him and asks God's "name" because there are so many false gods and idols. So God says "I AM who I AM."..."Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you."...."Sa this to the people of Israel, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations."

Ok so God called himself "I AM" in Exodus 3. Well then in John 8 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees (religious jews who believed in the resurrection and Old Testament but rejected Jesus as the messiah). He says in verse 42 "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my OWN accord, but HE sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.....verse 47 "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why YOU do not hear them is that you are not of God."

THEN>>>he tells them in vs 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." So the jews said to him 'you are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." This is where he REALLY made them mad because they knew God the Father was "I AM" from Moses's writings. So Jesus calls himself "I AM" here and they pick up stones to throw at him and plot to kill him for blasphemy.

He's definitely claiming SOMETHING here. It sounds like he's saying he's God but again back to my marriage reference....a man and woman become "one" and share the same name. I think this is all Jesus is saying. They are one....they share the same name....if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. He can't actually BE God the Father because he can't pray to himself and he clearly said in an early verse that God was "greater" than him. When John baptizes Jesus, the Holy Spirit comes down like a dove (so that's 2 beings) and then a voice from Heaven says "This is my son whom I am well pleased..." (That's God the Father) You've got all 3 separately during Jesus' baptism.

In John 10 the Jews basically say...just tell us plainly, if you are the Christ...just say it..and Jesus says "I and the Father are one." So the Jews go to stone him again and say "you, being a man, make yourself God." And Jesus replies in vs. 36 "Do you say of him who the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, "I AM THE SON OF GOD'?'...understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

1 Corinthians 8 is talking about idols and says "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth...yet for US there is ONE GOD, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Isaiah 9: 6 "For unto us a child is born (Jesus), to us a SON is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and HIS NAME shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty GOD, Everlasting FATHER, Prince of Peace." <----So here Isaiah (before Jesus had even come) calls him "Counselor" (a name mostly used to describe the Holy Spirit) and then calls him "mighty God" and "Everlasting Father."

Colossians 2: 9 "For in him (Jesus) the whole fulness of DEITY dwells BODILY..." Paul is telling the Colossians in verse 2-3 that he wants them to "reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and knowledge of God's MYSTERY, WHICH IS CHRIST."

1 John 5: 5- "Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the SON of God? This is he who came by water and blood - Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the SPIRIT (Holy spirit) is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is truth. For there are THREE that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these THREE agree."

Ok last thing.....in John (again) 17 Jesus is praying to the Father. Here are parts of it: "that they (humans) may know you the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified YOU on earth, having accomplished the work YOU gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED." "All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them (his followers)." "I am coming to YOU, Holy FATHER, keep them in your name, which you have GIVEN me (remember "I am" from earlier), that THEY may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE. "I also ask for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just and you, Father, are IN ME, and I IN YOU, that they also may be IN US, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

Certainly Jesus is not praying for all believers to literally be squished together into ONE human being. We know what he means even if we don't fully understand it. This is how God the Father and Jesus and the HS are ONE. They aren't the same person. They are three but they are "one."

Clear as mud right? haha I hope that helps someone.

WHOA!! LOL! I had no idea how long that was until I clicked "post!" Sorry!!!
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~ Ginger



For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together...Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Psalm 139: 13-16


Last edited by mamaginger; September 24th, 2012 at 10:15 AM.
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  #3  
September 24th, 2012, 04:41 PM
jeweluv's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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GINGER, you should be a pastor..omg, or a preacher or a bible study teacher! I GOT SOO MUCH FROM THAT! Light bulbs were going off lol. You know, recently I have been reading some Old Test scripture and seeing the pictures it paints of GOD prophesizing to send his first born son, free of sin, in perfect form. In the Old Test, which Jews believe as well as you of course know, it clearly depicts CHRIST.

Well, I still have so much of the bible to read and scripture to learn but hearing the words that JESUS actually said about being the son just shows his testimony.

I used to think that it was literally one person...just a different form. Kinf of like a gas, liquid, or solid form of water. I think it is like that to a point however the father, GOD is literally GOD and CHRIST'S father and although JESUS is his son, he is of divinity. Therefore, there is really only 3 beings, if you will, of this nature, GOD, CHRIST, and the HOLY spirit which is basically the spirit of GOD given to all of us who want to accept it.

It's also so interesting to read the scripture basically saying that even the concept of being made was made by GOD. Often I think about "Well, where did GOD come from? What was before creation? What was before that?" It really goes to show that these are human concepts and just as an ant can never understand rocket science, we will never be able to explain and understand this.....no matter how smart we think we get.

I always try to explain that to my husband. It really fascinates me =))

Thanks, Ginger...awesome knowedledge to read! xoxo
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  #4  
September 24th, 2012, 08:26 PM
mamaginger's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I do feel that God has called me to teach. I'm not teaching at church right now because I'm learning as much as I can from my fav teacher there and also being preggers...don't want to take on anything new but I def plan on teaching in the near future. unfortunately, most Christians are so ignorant of biblical truths and end up looking stupid and judgmental to outsiders. I hope I can be a tiny part of changing this!
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~ Ginger



For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together...Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Psalm 139: 13-16

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  #5  
September 28th, 2012, 01:39 PM
mamaginger's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,305
LOL..I wish I could see the lurkers I like how this thread has only 3 posters but 48 views......come out lurkers! Post if you dare! haha
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~ Ginger



For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb...I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together...Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Psalm 139: 13-16

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