[SweetSimpleThings]

I saw this on our news here a few days back, and I've hesitated a bit to post about it because I don't want to flare up nastiness ... but given some of the other topics on the go right now, I thought it might be of interest ... I guess the basic question is: should she have her kids back? I believe in Canada we have fairly different legislation in terms of hate crimes, so I won't ask if you feel if her behaviour falls under hate crime .... but generally, should she have had her kids taken away?

From CTV News:

Manitoba Child and Family services was in court Monday to argue for permanent guardianship of a girl and boy, after the girl was sent to school sporting a swastika -- a symbol typically associated with racially-motivated hate groups.

The children's mother denies she has done anything wrong.

"I think I'm a pretty good mother. I've raised my children to have pride in themselves. That's all I've ever done." she told CTV News, as she sat beneath a banner with the slogan "White Pride Worldwide."

Child services was called to a city elementary school in March after the girl, 7, arrived at school with a Swastika, the words "Hail Victory" and "Aryan Pride" written on her arms and one leg in permanent maker.

The number "14/88," a reference to Hitler, was also written on the little girl. The 14 refers to the number of words in the slogan: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." The 88 stands for HH and means "Heil Hitler."

Police and officials from the department went to the family's Winnipeg home and seized the girl's two-year-old brother, and in the process discovered what they said was evidence of the parents' neo-Nazi beliefs.

The mother of the children has maintained she is not a neo-Nazi, but is simply proud of her northern European background and describes herself as a "white nationalist."

She said her daughter drew the swastika on her own arm after taking part in a "white pride" racist march in Calgary. When the girl's teacher washed the symbol off, the mother and daughter drew it on again with a marker.

The mother said drawing the swastika was stupid, but insisted the act harmed no one and her beliefs are a family matter.

"It's OK to be proud to be a native, it's OK to preach black power," she said, before adding, "But when you're white and you're proud, it's wrong."

The case against the mother and another man -- reportedly the father of the boy and stepfather of the girl, but now separated from the mother -- has attracted international attention.

Child services says it's concerned the parent's conduct might endanger the emotional well-being of the children. It's also said the children may be at risk of harm because of the parent's associations.

Experts have said it's the first time in years in Canada that children have been removed from their home due to the parents' beliefs.

Prof. Arthur Schafer, director of the Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics at the University of Manitoba, said many Canadian parents are intolerant, homophobic or sexist. But despite their disgusting views, it's not enough for the state to intervene.

"I don't think teaching your children loathsome, intolerable, bigoted views counts as psychological abuse," he said. "Or if it did, we'd have to seize hundreds of thousands of Canadian children."

With a report by CTV's Murray Oliver in Winnipeg[/b]

Source

FYI, the news story on tv included an interview with the mom (she didn't show her face) in her home, which had a "white pride" flag on the wall. She apparently normally has a swastika flag on the wall, but had taken it down.

My own answer: I'll freely admit that I'm torn ... I think it's disgusting to raise your kids with a swastika flag on the wall, but I don't know if I believe that anyone has a right to stop her. I think it's tempting to agree with her when she says "it's ok to have pride if you're this background or that bakcground, but not if you're white" but history has shown that the fundamental difference is that usually white-pride groups are less about expressing pride of being white, and more about hatred against others. I think most other groups who talk about racial pride, ie. native pride, black pride, are about reclaiming a pride that has been stripped due to subjugation (ie slavery, native reservations, etc.) and having pride in your background, and not about hating others. Also, most so-called white pride groups are also neo-nazi groups ... to me, that just wipes all validity of the idea that the group is about "pride".

[Live4Love]

Wow... this is quite a hot topic. I had not heard anything about this until I read the post. Personally, I think the mother overstepped boundaries with this part of the story in particular:

Child services was called to a city elementary school in March after the girl, 7, arrived at school with a Swastika, the words "Hail Victory" and "Aryan Pride" written on her arms and one leg in permanent maker.

The number "14/88," a reference to Hitler, was also written on the little girl. The 14 refers to the number of words in the slogan: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." The 88 stands for HH and means "Heil Hitler."[/b]

In my opinion, NO parent should write on their child with permanent marker, ESPECIALLY when the writing is controversial and offensive. I mean, come on, WHO does that?! Plus, this little girl is only 7 years old!! There is NO WAY that she would fully understand the meaning of "Aryan Pride", "Hail Victory", "14/88", and more importantly, understand the impact it would have on classmates/teachers/etc. What if her teacher was Jewish? Or if other students in the class were Jewish? I just cannot even believe that any mother would put her little 7 y/o daughter in that kind of position. Obviously when the little girl drew the horrid symbol on her own arm and her teacher washed it off, that's for a reason. You just can't wear hateful symbols around in schools, regardless of how much you support those views.

I'm a public high school teacher and we have a dress code that specifies things such as sporting inappropriate symbols, language, and actions that should not be allowed in schools.

I don't know... I think that this mother is absolutely selfish and ridiculous to put her 7 year old through this.

[The-Princess]

I think what she's doing is wrong, but I also believe she has the right to her beliefs.

many Canadian parents are intolerant, homophobic or sexist. But despite their disgusting views, it's not enough for the state to intervene.[/b]

I have to agree with this statement as well. If they're going to take her children because of her views, then why aren't they doing the same to thousands of other parents?

[Live4Love]

My issue with this isn't just the views that the mother is instilling in her child, but the actual actions she is taking... Maybe preeching your beliefs to your children isn't abuse, but writing your prejudice views in permanent marker on your 7 year old is.

[Chunky Monkey]

I agree that the mother has the right to her beliefs. HOWEVER I think sending her daughter to school with swastika's and racially disturbing stuff drawn on her to school is harmful. Not only for the daughter who has to go to school with the stigma of that but also to her classmates. It disrupts the school day.

My DH said the little girl might also be a target of physical harm. Reverse discrimination.

We had a neo-nazi rally here in Toledo, Ohio a few years ago. It caused a riot, which I am sure most of you heard about. After the rally the neo-nazi's went to a local tattoo parlor for tattoos. The owner does not believe in the same things as them (I am friends with him) but do you know he was targeted and his shop was vandalized for doing ink on them? He wasn't agreeing with them. It was business plain and simple. But the outraged people in the community didn't see it that way.

[zzz]

My issue with this isn't just the views that the mother is instilling in her child, but the actual actions she is taking... Maybe preeching your beliefs to your children isn't abuse, but writing your prejudice views in permanent marker on your 7 year old is.[/b]

Yes.



First of all, I think writing ANYTHING on your child in permanent marker, even if it's rainbows and butterflies, is stupid.

I don't know if taking the child away was the right thing to do here - but I agree that some action has to be taken. It is not criminal to teach your child things others don't agree with, but when you write things like that on a child that does not have the capacity to really understand the implications of those words is when a line is crossed. The child doesn't know what those ridiculous things mean, and doesn't know how to handle the possible backlash of people seeing those things written on her. The mother placed her child in immediate danger of physical harm, and that, imo, is wrong.

That sort of reminds me of the beginning of Die Hard With A Vengeance, when Bruce Willis was forced to stand in the middle of Brooklyn with an incredibly racist statement written on him.


Lisa

*edited because I can't spell today

[short_n_swt]

I actually got a different version of the story:

Winnipeg 'white pride' mother regrets redrawing swastika on child's arm
Last Updated: Thursday, July 10, 2008 | 7:50 PM CT Comments632Recommend259CBC News
A Winnipeg mother whose children were seized by authorities after she sent her daughter to school with a swastika on her arm says she regrets redrawing the Nazi symbol after a teacher scrubbed it off.

The mother, who considers herself a white nationalist, is fighting the child welfare system to regain custody of her daughter, 7, and son, 2. They were taken away after the girl was sent to school with the swastika drawn on her arm.

Four months ago, her daughter drew a swastika on her arm and went to school, where her teacher scrubbed it off. The mother helped her daughter draw it on her arm again, an act she regrets.

"It was one of the stupidest things I've done in my life but it's no reason to take my kids," the mother told CBC News.

Child and Family Services case workers were alerted and went to the family's apartment, where they found neo-Nazi symbols and flags, and took custody of her son. Her daughter was taken from school.

In court documents, social workers say they're worried the parents' conduct and associations might harm the emotional well-being of the children and put them at risk.

Although she proudly wears a silver necklace that includes a swastika and has "white pride" flags in her home, the mother, who can't be named to avoid identifying her children, denies she's a neo-Nazi or white supremacist.

"A black person has a right to say black power or black pride and yet they're turning around on us and saying we're racists and bigots and neo-Nazis because we say white pride. It's hypocrisy at its finest."

The mother has been fighting in court for four months to get back her children, who are living with extended family. The mother can see her children for two hours a week.

"It's been gut-wrenching. I didn't get off the couch for the first eight days; I just cried. I laid in their bed and held their stuffed animals and just cried. Last few nights, I've been sleeping in my daughter's bed."

She's outraged that the police and child welfare authorities could take her children away because of her beliefs.

"I'm willing to jump through their hoops," she said. "If they want me to deny my beliefs, I'll tell them that, but at the same time, I'm not a traitor to my politics, my beliefs. I just want my kids back."

Case sparks debate
The case has sparked questions about whether the state has the right to protect children from their parents' beliefs.

University of Winnipeg professor Helmut-Harry Loewen, an expert on hate groups, said while he disagrees with the ideology, he fears taking custody based on beliefs is draconian.

"If children are apprehended based on parents' political or religious beliefs, then one is opening a kind of slippery slope," he said.

But University of Manitoba professor Harvy Frankel, dean of the faculty of social work, said officials did the right thing.

"We should be reassured that this is child welfare practice as it should be."

If the two sides can't resolve their differences next week, they'll go to family court, likely in the fall.[/b]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/20...tika-child.html

Which is CBC and doesn't say that the mother had added additional words or graphics other then the swastika on the daughter's arm.

I think being racist against other ethnicities is wrong but I think being proud to be white is fine, just likes its okay to be proud to be black as she said. Though I personally say "proud to be irish" because my skin color means nothing to me but I am proud of my heritage. This woman sounds racist and just pretending to be proud though. JMO. I dont know how Ifeel about her kids being taken away. but I will say I think racism goes both ways, and sometimes things involving races are unfair. While the gov't is trying to pay their debt to some ethnicities other ethnicities are not being given equal rights to some things, such as education. They fought to be equal but have more privileges. Yet the war on race is still here, and like I said it goes both ways. But if people want to be equal then let them be equal. How long will it go on before they feel their debt is paid. My biological father was native american but I dont know that side of my family but from my understanding if I am enough part native american then I have more benefits then some caucasion members of society just because of my bloodline. I don't think thats fair. I'm still me either way. but, life isnt always fair... sorry i got off topic.

[SusieQ2]

I'm really torn here because while I think she's entitled to her own beliefs I don't think those beliefs should be pushed onto a child. "White pride" type groups tend to promote hatred of other races. She could be potentially putting her daughter in danger by writing a swastika on her arm.


I have to admit that I've also never understood the whole "White pride" "Black pride" type thing. I'm white and I don't feel it's something I need to be "proud" of if that makes sense. It's not an accomplishment. I was born this way. It wasn't a hardship to become white and I didn't have to work to become white. I am proud to be a college graduate. That is something I worked towards and put effort into.

[pixie_punk]

I agree with everyone else for the most part. I don't think her beliefs alone are a reason to take her kids away. It sounds a little thought-police to me. I do, however, think her beliefs are really, really wrong, and it's sad that she's pushing them on her kids and putting her daughter in that position. Writing on her daughter with permanent marker is not the brightest thing to do, but I'm not sure it's particularly ABUSIVE.

On a side note, I think comments like "It's OK to be proud to be a native, it's OK to preach black power," she said, before adding, "But when you're white and you're proud, it's wrong." is quite absurd. There ARE connotations associated with 'white pride' and 'white power,' and they aren't good ones - and not being able to express pride in being white without being thought racist is NOT discrimination. At least not NEARLY on par with what's been inflicted on most other races at the hands of white people. Is it really equal to 200+ years of slavery? How about seizing land and possessions and interning Japanese residents in internment camps in WWII? And somehow I don't see the federal government issuing a massive apology to white people for not allowing them to run around yelling "WHITE PRIDE" like they just did for the awful residential schools fiasco involving Native children.

I'm white, but I guess I just don't have a lot of sympathy for white supremacist's cries of discrimination. They have a much more solid footing if they say their right to freedom of speech is being infringed, and even that's shaky because of restrictions on hate speech.

[eleanor rigby]

I want to say that using your child as a the equivilant of a political sign at a protest rally is wrong, but I have sent my kids to school in gay pride tee-shirts so that would be hypocritical. If what she did was removable (and permanent marker is, you just need rubbing alcohol) then it should have been removed and a meeting arranged with her and the principal telling her that hate messages were not permitted in the school.

I don't think her kids should have been taken from her. Maybe, though, she should be forced to watch some documentaries on WWII and see footage of the suffering Hitler caused to millions of people.

[Banned-aej0880]

I'm white, but I guess I just don't have a lot of sympathy for white supremacist's cries of discrimination. They have a much more solid footing if they say their right to freedom of speech is being infringed, and even that's shaky because of restrictions on hate speech.[/b]

You still have to explain why there is a double standard allowed in what is considered "hate speech". Just because your government publishes a restriction on something doesn't mean it is right, let alone that it is applied fairly.

I think the mom drawing the sign on her kid and sending her to school was misconduct. Interfering with childrens' education, both her own child's and others', is a problem. Aside from that, her political views should not remotely be an issue.

[$pryNinja]

Bottom line is she should not have had either of her children taken away from her for writing on them with marker. She may have deliberately done it to push some buttons but I think that was the wrong way to go about it. I would never use my child to make a point, especially if it involves them in some way they wouldn't understand. I hope she gets both of her kids back soon though!!

[inkedtilend]

I think being proud of your hertiage is great. I don't think being proud of the holocaust is so great. In fact, I think its downright disgusting. And wearing a swastika is saying just that, "I'm proud my ancestors were part of the holocaust", or you wish they were, or your just proud that it happened, or you at the very least support what the Nazis were saying.

I'm part German. I'm extreamly proud of my German hertiage. But I'm not proud of what Hitler did. I'm not proud of what the Nazis did.

I think teaching children hate is disgusting. Which is what I think this woman is doing. Teaching your children about their culture and hertiage and too be proud of where they come from is one thing. But teaching them to look down on others, or spew hate, is just awful. Unfortuently, while I think its bad parenting skills, its not actually against the law. If it were every homophobe and racist and sexist would have their children taken away and our foster care system would be even more overcrowded by kids. Though, I've always heard, what you hate the most, will wind up in your family. And I've seen it happen. My own BF's parents, they never wanted him to end up with a girl from a broken home. Or an unstable home enviroment. And who does he want to marry? Unstable was our way of life, and broken doesn't even begin to cover it. Though, they've learned to love me, and my chatoic unstable family. Wonder who her kids will bring home?

[lisamcole]

I am in an interracial (I am white and my husband is black) marriage and my youngest is mixed, I know first hand all the hate and prejudice that is out there. I hear people all the time calling me a "N" lover and calling my 2 year old a mut and a "N" let, and the really horrible part about it they will say that in front of their own children. Is that the type of impression we want to instill in our children these days? Being proud of who you are and where you come from is great! But to down grade the next person for who they are and where they come from is horrible. To put ANYTHING hatred in a childs mind or on their body is disgusting and it shouldnt happen! Kids have a hard enough time being kids without someone down grading them, making fun or hating them. That mother IMO is setting her child up for a TOUGH life and to be a hateful bully, and that really saddens me. If the little girl drew the first one on her arm and the teacher scrubbed it off, the little girl is gonna thing it is ok to wear it cause mommy drew it back on! Like I said being proud of who you are and where you come from is GREAT and a person should be, but to expose hate to the next is totally wrong!

...should she have had her kids taken away?[/b]

Not in a million years, even if she is teaching hate.

[stardusthealer]

QUOTE(Christina~A. @ Jul 12 2008, 01:00 PM)
...should she have had her kids taken away?[/b]

Everyone is entitled to there own believes you can't go around just taking kids away just cause you do not believe what she is teaching her child.
No matter if it is hate she is entitled to teach her child her beliefs.

[lisamcole]

I dont think she should have them taken away, but I do think she isnt being a proper parent. JMO

I dont think she should have had her children taken away from here at all.

Do i agree with her beliefs, no i dont but that doesnt mean she hasnt got the right to believe what she wants, so long as her child is being taken care of, from what i understand shes not abusing her child. I dont think that the government has a right to say your an unfit parent because you believe a certain way.

Is it appropriate to dress your child is swastika's and put Hitler references on her then send her off to school, no its not, its offensive and obviously some action should be taken to address that, perhaps sending the child home only to be returned when she was dressed in a non offensive way.

There are many people who believe in hateful things, and the government isnt taking their kids away....

[swade66]

I dont think she should have had her children taken away from here at all.

Do i agree with her beliefs, no i dont but that doesnt mean she hasnt got the right to believe what she wants, so long as her child is being taken care of, from what i understand shes not abusing her child. I dont think that the government has a right to say your an unfit parent because you believe a certain way.

Is it appropriate to dress your child is swastika's and put Hitler references on her then send her off to school, no its not, its offensive and obviously some action should be taken to address that, perhaps sending the child home only to be returned when she was dressed in a non offensive way.

There are many people who believe in hateful things, and the government isnt taking their kids away....[/b]

Big Ditto.