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Gay Marriage - Rights - Where do you stand?


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  #1  
October 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM
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First off, I want to say right now I hope we can all remain respectful of this topic. I am EXTREMELY passionate about this subject, but do understand people don't agree with where I stand. But we aren't going to debate about what is right or wrong, more so, where do you stand? This leads me into my main question though... do you think schools have the right to show anti gay/pro gay material in an age appropriate setting?

First off, I am 100% pro gay rights for everything.... marriage, adoption, equal benefits for spouses, I believe my sister should have the same rights I do, but she doesn't, just because she's gay. I still love and accept her but wish others would as well. I wish she could adopt as she wished and not jump through hoops. I wish she didn't spend most of her life searching for a family member to accept her. Her Mom gave a child up for adoption, and after she found out she was gay she said she gave up the wrong child. So yeah, that set her on her quest to find our family, which she has been estranged from for many, many years. We love her and accept her and I am glad that her and her wife are in my life and my daughters life.

That being said, I have friends that are against gay marriage but do respect their opinions as long as they respect mine. When it gets into the territory of "they are wrong, they should go to hell" that's when my claws come out. I have had friends disagree yet accept, which I wish the rest of the world would at least get to that level. Time is changing though...

But I guess that brings me to this debate. Where do you stand on this issue? Would your mind change if your own child was homosexual? If it is against your religion, do you still accept or believe it is something that must be "fixed" in order to have a good relationship within your religion?

What made me think of this is two slam poems about this very issue, and I see the absolute mountain sized level of emotion come from these poets, and EVERY single time I see these poems I just want to cry because of the pure emotion from these poets on a subject Im incredibly passionate about. I almost believe that if every person who didn't believe in gay marriage watched these poems they would believe and accept.

First poem is here:
YouTube - Prop8 Andrea Gibson - I do
Second is here:
YouTube - Alvin Lau - Full Moon

I just wish the world could see through these poets eyes and just love, and let love. I hate hate hate hate that my sister doesn't have the same rights as I do, I hate that she was thrown to the side because she is a lesbian, but I am grateful that she is in our lives now and we love and accept her, I just hate she grew up without the support that she has now.

Oh yeah, the main reason I asked this is, would you be ticked off if I showed these poems to your high school students in class in a unit about slam poetry? Would you be mad a school had this material shown? Do you think that is an appropriate setting for these types of poems?
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  #2  
October 19th, 2009, 09:56 PM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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I would have no problem with my child being exposed to any tasteful literature that relates to diversity. He does not live in a bubble so he needs to be aware of the differences in people such as race, sexual orientation, religion, etc..as long as it's tasteful and shown in an appropriate school approved manner. Of course I will teach him to respect these different types of diversities at home as well, but I see no problem with him being exposed in a school climate either as long as it's school approved.

I am extremely PRO gay rights so that may factor into my decision as well.

ETA: I loved both slam poems..especially Andrea's.
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  #3  
October 19th, 2009, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonitaAppleBomb View Post
I would have no problem with my child being exposed to any tasteful literature that relates to diversity. He does not live in a bubble so he needs to be aware of the differences in people such as race, sexual orientation, religion, etc..as long as it's tasteful and shown in an appropriate school approved manner. Of course I will teach him to respect these different types of diversities at home as well, but I see no problem with him being exposed in a school climate either as long as it's school approved.

I am extremely PRO gay rights so that may factor into my decision as well.
Thanks for responding. Would those poems I posted be considered tasteful to you? I know there is cussing, but much of slam poetry has cussing, but I would teach it in a way to show the art of what is being said, how it is being said, more than what is actually being said.

I am very anti-censorship with literature of any type, so sometimes what I think is tasteful others still think it goes beyond the realm of what is okay in a classroom setting.

Also, if I did show that, it wouldn't be so much discussing the content, but what it is behind the poem that makes it so powerful (words, emotion, physical stance, interaction with the audience, etc...) but also factor in what the student believes but not make any one answer right/wrong.

I saw this stuff in an English class, but it was a class that had a very very open teacher (in fact, I have poems online from her as well) and she encouraged freedom of thought and hates censorship just as much as I do. I would love to show my students the world of slam poetry, and those 2 poems are some of what I want to show. I know they are controversial though, which is why I get the thoughts in my head whether or not it is appropriate for the school setting.

I know people stand differently, I know that the class discussion can easily turn very heated, but I want to show things that might evoke strong thoughts in order to get kids to assess their own beliefs, not necessarily what they have been told their entire lives. I think literature is an incredibly powerful tool not many kids utilize, and would love for them so see the emotion the poets have in those poems and write their own words with the same level of emotion.

I honestly DO want to cause debates in my class, get kids to think and respond with their minds and hearts, and learn more than what a metaphor or simile is in a poem, ya know? So I am putting together a poetry unit to hopefully be allowed to present, and want to show these poems. I think they have so much literary value, but they are controversial, and personal controversies can put me into a deep deep hole that Im not sure I could get out of.
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  #4  
October 19th, 2009, 10:19 PM
BonitaAppleBomb's Avatar ~African-American-Mommy~
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Yes I did hear the profanity and immediately thought if I'd want my child to hear it; HOWEVER, I'm a middle school teacher and know that middle school children use much worse profanity..so imagine the profanity used by highschool students.

I'm assuming this would be in a highschool setting which would probably fare much better, but I don't think it would go over well with middle school students. Even if it is presented to highschool students, it would be best to give parents the option of having their child opt-out of the presentation..kwim. Especially since it does involve profanity and sexual innuendos.

You know how some parents get lawsuit happy and all. It's ok for them to "cuss out" their kids at home and vice versa, but God forbid they go to school and hear their teacher use profanity in any form. But that's another thread...lol!
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  #6  
October 19th, 2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonitaAppleBomb View Post
Yes I did hear the profanity and immediately thought if I'd want my child to hear it; HOWEVER, I'm a middle school teacher and know that middle school children use much worse profanity..so imagine the profanity used by highschool students.

I'm assuming this would be in a highschool setting which would probably fare much better, but I don't think it would go over well with middle school students. Even if it is presented to highschool students, it would be best to give parents the option of having their child opt-out of the presentation..kwim. Especially since it does involve profanity and sexual innuendos.

You know how some parents get lawsuit happy and all. It's ok for them to "cuss out" their kids at home and vice versa, but God forbid they go to school and hear their teacher use profanity in any form. But that's another thread...lol!
Oh yeah I wouldn't even touch this in a middle school setting. I would probably do this in an honors class or 11th-12th grade classroom. 9th graders might be too immature, 10th is a touch and go, would depend on the class. My teacher made up a class to teach stuff like this, all the "taboo" books and material that wouldn't fly in a normal setting. We had to have parent permission to take it because my teacher flat out said we will discuss racism, death, abortion, life, etc... and will read literature on those subjects. I loved the class and could see stuff like this going over well in a class like that, but in a mainstream class... not so much. Depends on the students and school.

I am going to ask my observing teacher tomorrow if I can teach a day lesson on slam poetry, invite the students to the youth slam nights, just introduce them to the subjects, and trying to see what might evoke something within them, light their fire and have them go to a slam and possibly perform themselves. My cooperating teacher teaches honors classes which is why I think these kids would take really well to some of the stuff I would like to show. I want to get my foot in the door and teach something I am comfortable with to ease my nerves, but also introduce the kids to slam and get them interested. What better way to spark interest than to do something that might be controversial, we all know kids thrive with controversy

I'm just not sure how this might go over. I know many many many other slam poems I could teach, but these 2 just really tug at my emotions and have drawn many of my friends into the world of slam poetry by the raw talent and emotion these poets have. I would love for more youth to get into the world of slam poetry.
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  #7  
October 19th, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by childofmusic View Post
As for the poems, I rather like them and would be thrilled to have my kid hear them and learn about htem. Yeah, yeah, there's cursing, and they might allued to "sexual-esq" feelings (I heard nothing blanet myself, but maybe someone else will), and they talk about being gay (focusing on gay marriage). 'Cause teenagers never curse. 'Cause teenagers don't think about sex. 'Cause no teenager is gay. And like you said, a lot of slam poetry has cursing in it. Speaking from my own childhood, I was 7 when I started hearing slam poetry. There was a small bookstore that had a slam poetry night and my mom take me and let me drink chai tea and listen to the performers. I fell in love. Cursing, sex, drugs, violence, love, hate, anger, passion, it amazed me.

Ok, I got off on a tagent there...opps.
See it is stuff like that that make me yell YES YES YES! I wish more parents felt the same, because I want to teach more than how to write an essay, I want to teach life through literature. I am such a slam poetry geek it's not even funny. The first time my friend brought me to a slam I was dumbfounded, couldn't speak... my life literally changed the moment I watched those poets and would LOVE to transfer that to my students.

But beyond that... I know gay issues can spark huge controversies and as much as I want to teach them, I am not sure if parents will be parading behind me glad I am opening their children up to diverse literature. Part of me doesn't care, part of me wants to educate the parents themselves, but we know I probably can't do that. But I can start with the kids. Gay rights is just one of the many slam poem topics I would love to teach because there is such raw emotional talent in the poems, but along with that is so much controversy.
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  #8  
October 20th, 2009, 12:35 AM
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I can't play the poems right now as I need to be quiet...but I am for gay rights regarding marriage. I have such a hard time understanding why it's even an issue still being argued. The ONLY argument made against it is rooted in religion - and we can't legislate religious views (apparently we can I guess...as it currently seems to stand) - but we SHOULDn't. When anyone tells me they are against it, I always ask them if they are going to pass laws against premarital sex then too & make me come to their church every Sunday & give appropriate tithe - taken directly from my check, etc, etc. You can't MAKE people believe like you do & as long as we are a free country you should be able to marry anyone human that can consent. Darnit! LOL
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  #9  
October 20th, 2009, 05:14 AM
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YEs I'm for legal gay marriage. If a certain church wants to say "no gay marriage in OUR church" thats their perogative. But as far as I see it LEgal marriage is a contract between two people by the state. It shouldn't matter what the genders of the two people are. I think the whole arguement over civil unions vs. marriage is ridiculous because we're just argueing semantics. Marriage is a word and certain religions don't own the word marriage.

Not to mention the fact that denying gay folks the right to marry is a violation of the freedom of religion. Plenty of religions allow gays to marry (unitarian for example). By not allowing gays to legally marry they're being denied their religious freedom... and that really rubs me the wrong way.

ETA I'm an athiest and I was allowed to legally marry... it had nothing at all to do with any religion. So the whole arguement some anti-gay marriage people use "keep marriage in the church" is just faulty because its already out of the church lol...
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  #10  
October 20th, 2009, 05:19 AM
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I am 100% for equal rights here also.

I would not have a problem with my teen hearing that when shes a bit older and in HS.
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  #11  
October 20th, 2009, 06:41 AM
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This will be coming up on our ballot in Nov. and I will be voting in favor of gay marriage.
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  #12  
October 20th, 2009, 07:34 AM
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I would absolutely let my kids watch them when they were older. I am extremely open minded and want my kids to be the same.
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  #13  
October 20th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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There will always be many different kinds of families. Traditional - one mom, one dad, 2.5 kids, single parents, step parents, biracial parents, grandparents, kids living with aunts and uncles, families where every kid has a different dad (or mom), adopted kids, ect, ect, ect. As long as the family is happy and and it is a healthy environment for a child to grow up in what difference does it make?

I see no reason what-so-ever that a homosexual couple can't get married.
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  #14  
October 20th, 2009, 01:29 PM
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To answer your first question, I'm definitely for gay marriage rights. I spent last Friday phoning around in support of an upcoming referendum/election issue on that very topic, so yes, it's something I'm passionate about.

Regarding the poetry - no, I wouldn't be angry if you showed that to my child in a classroom setting.
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  #15  
October 20th, 2009, 01:37 PM
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I'm 100% pro... well... pro gay? that sounds weird. lol, you get the point.

Some of my closest friends are gay and in loving relationships. Some are discussing marriage, some would like children. I'd carry a child for them if they asked me to, with out a 2nd thought (long as I have one of my own.. couldn't give up my first baby after losses... that'd break my heart!).

I have NO idea why parts of the world are still so closed about this subject. A common law couple eventually gets the rights of a married couple regarding finances and next of kin.. why couldn't a homosexual couple? That just doesn't make any sense to me!

Sigh... just proves we've not fully moved out of the stone age yet.
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  #16  
October 20th, 2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmom View Post
YEs I'm for legal gay marriage. If a certain church wants to say "no gay marriage in OUR church" thats their perogative. But as far as I see it LEgal marriage is a contract between two people by the state. It shouldn't matter what the genders of the two people are. I think the whole arguement over civil unions vs. marriage is ridiculous because we're just argueing semantics. Marriage is a word and certain religions don't own the word marriage.

Not to mention the fact that denying gay folks the right to marry is a violation of the freedom of religion. Plenty of religions allow gays to marry (unitarian for example). By not allowing gays to legally marry they're being denied their religious freedom... and that really rubs me the wrong way.

ETA I'm an athiest and I was allowed to legally marry... it had nothing at all to do with any religion. So the whole arguement some anti-gay marriage people use "keep marriage in the church" is just faulty because its already out of the church lol...
My church (United Church of Canada) will marry gay couples. Further more, my personal church is an Affirming Church - we have a rainbow sign on our church which is a sign that we are welcoming to the LGBT Community. We have a couple of gay couples that I am aware of, and they are all very welcome, and two of the couples were married by our minister. I just wanted to say that, since the church thing was mentioned - and because I was told to let you know. I love my church, and I think that everybody should have the right to marry who they love (mind you - I remember hearing about a guy who wanted to marry his motorcycle, and that's just strange to me)
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  #17  
October 20th, 2009, 01:52 PM
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Hey Gwen, I just wanted to add for other readers that the United Church is a Christian church.

Some Americans hear "United Church" and they think it's like a Unitarian church. The United Church was born out of Presbyterian and Methodists in Canada and basically, not enough churchgoers to go around, so they kind of just merged :-). That's the 'jist' of it anyway.

Anyway, just adding that in there.
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  #18  
October 20th, 2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jess5377 View Post
Hey Gwen, I just wanted to add for other readers that the United Church is a Christian church.

Some Americans hear "United Church" and they think it's like a Unitarian church. The United Church was born out of Presbyterian and Methodists in Canada and basically, not enough churchgoers to go around, so they kind of just merged :-). That's the 'jist' of it anyway.

Anyway, just adding that in there.
And Congregationalists.

Thank you for putting that in - I always forget that people sometimes get confused with the UCC. Heck, even people in Canada get confused by it. So thank you!
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  #19  
October 20th, 2009, 08:44 PM
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I'm a middle school teacher and do not shy away from controversial topics! Only watched part of the first one, and I liked it! I would maybe not show it to middle schoolers just b.c it says mthrfers, but I HAVE used other poetry with some profanity in it. And, especially for 8th graders, we get into ALL the hot topics when we do the persuasive unit!

As for where I stand, I am for equal rights for all. There is NO reason why gay people are not allowed to be married. The absolute ONLY argument I've heard against it is the religious argument, and that just doesn't hold any water. Especially when you are talking about the legality of it and how we have separation of church and state.


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Originally Posted by Mom2Froggy View Post
Thanks for responding. Would those poems I posted be considered tasteful to you? I know there is cussing, but much of slam poetry has cussing, but I would teach it in a way to show the art of what is being said, how it is being said, more than what is actually being said.

I am very anti-censorship with literature of any type, so sometimes what I think is tasteful others still think it goes beyond the realm of what is okay in a classroom setting.

Also, if I did show that, it wouldn't be so much discussing the content, but what it is behind the poem that makes it so powerful (words, emotion, physical stance, interaction with the audience, etc...) but also factor in what the student believes but not make any one answer right/wrong.

I saw this stuff in an English class, but it was a class that had a very very open teacher (in fact, I have poems online from her as well) and she encouraged freedom of thought and hates censorship just as much as I do. I would love to show my students the world of slam poetry, and those 2 poems are some of what I want to show. I know they are controversial though, which is why I get the thoughts in my head whether or not it is appropriate for the school setting.

I know people stand differently, I know that the class discussion can easily turn very heated, but I want to show things that might evoke strong thoughts in order to get kids to assess their own beliefs, not necessarily what they have been told their entire lives. I think literature is an incredibly powerful tool not many kids utilize, and would love for them so see the emotion the poets have in those poems and write their own words with the same level of emotion.

I honestly DO want to cause debates in my class, get kids to think and respond with their minds and hearts, and learn more than what a metaphor or simile is in a poem, ya know? So I am putting together a poetry unit to hopefully be allowed to present, and want to show these poems. I think they have so much literary value, but they are controversial, and personal controversies can put me into a deep deep hole that Im not sure I could get out of.
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  #20  
October 20th, 2009, 09:00 PM
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For all human rights, for everyone.
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