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Rape and Kristen Stewart: 選 Made an Enormous Mistake"


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  #41  
June 6th, 2010, 09:29 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
So about that thing.. it actually makes my feminist senses tingle and I've been wanting to have a conversation about that with anyone who cares.

I think putting down Twilight, KStew, Twilight Moms, teen girls who like Twilight aren't playful fun at all. I think it's deep rooted sexism at work. Star Wars, Star Trek and Sci-Fi get poked at but not like this one. I would even compare the ugliness painted to KStew to the media's attempt at painting Tom Cruise as evil, gay, a bad dad, a bad partner, bla, blah, blah. I don't understand it yet so I would love to get some input about this and your thoughts.
To add to that-- bad boys are HOT in Hollywood. Rolling their eyes, acting out, going out and getting crap-faced, and overall being JERKS are lauded and applauded and in high demand. No statements about anything horrible they might say. And they say some incredibly offensive things. But they "aren't Kristen"

God this girl doesn't go out drinking incessantly, is generally a good citizen, doesn't break the law or require an ankle bracelet and doesn't get around. I have yet to see her panties, and she chooses roles that attempt (I said attempt) to show acting instead of her breasts and booty shorts. She chooses roles that she thinks makes women strong and lets them speak, from multiple angles.

She says a few annoying comments and does some annoying things at age 17 and because she has a vagina, she's literally blasted constantly
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  #42  
June 6th, 2010, 09:32 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by Lash View Post
To add to that-- bad boys are HOT in Hollywood. Rolling their eyes, acting out, going out and getting crap-faced, and overall being JERKS are lauded and applauded and in high demand. No statements about anything horrible they might say. And they say some incredibly offensive things. But they "aren't Kristen"

God this girl doesn't go out drinking incessantly, is generally a good citizen, doesn't break the law or require an ankle bracelet and doesn't get around. I have yet to see her panties, and she chooses roles that attempt (I said attempt) to show acting instead of her breasts and booty shorts. She chooses roles that she thinks makes women strong and lets them speak, from multiple angles.

She says a few annoying comments and does some annoying things at age 17 and because she has a vagina, she's literally blasted constantly
I was just going to bring up the Britney Spears attacks, Lindsay Lohan, Angelina Jolie's and other female celebrities that the "bad" press CONSTANTLY.
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  #43  
June 6th, 2010, 09:32 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
Haha. Take this personally much, Lauren? Where did I put words into your mouth or paint you a certain way? I explained where I was coming from and then said that I believe you when you say she's changed.
I think I stated earlier on page 1 that it's hard for me to debate this topic. That was pointed out long ago. It's sad to me to see a group of women rip apart someone that they have very limited information about.

But that's most debates and most topics, not just this one. I get just as annoyed when people don't put in any effort to look up things and put SOMETHING in reference to their comments. It's not just a Twilight thing. I don't get discussing and defending a belief about something when it's not backed up and warranted. I just DON'T GET IT. So this topic is no different. Even in this thread, I even put in references.
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  #44  
June 6th, 2010, 09:35 PM
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So...what? You want me to find the interviews I was talking about? I'm sure you've seen them and know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm just interested in where I put words in your mouth or painted you in a poor light, because that certainly wasn't my intent. I don't even remember saying anything about you. I explained why I don't care for her, you said that she's not like that anymore, and I said okay, I'll take your word for it. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.
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  #45  
June 6th, 2010, 09:39 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I think the whole "personal much" didn't really make sense. Like somehow I can only defend this girl vehemently because of the topic she's attached to. That I can't actually have a mind about this topic. It almost felt like the statement is that I can't think on my own about this topic, because of what it's attached to and because I have an interest in Twilight.

It didn't come across as "Oh ok I get it now, I believe you". It was pretty much " you don't seem to get it, imagine those poor reporters, you can't see this topic for what it is" and then followed that up with "oh personal much". No actually it's not that personal. I could very easily defend the same kind of topic or the same star. Do I have more information at my hand because of who she is? Yep. But I'd put the same effort into any other topic. I'm not responding emotionally. I can think for myself. I don't make excuses for the chick because she's in Twilight. I defend her because I think she's a fallible human that he world needs to finally give a freaking break

It honestly felt degrading. It felt the same as when people used to tell me I couldn't debate in parenting debates because I surely knew nothing as I wasn't a parent. I have nothing to add to this debate is what I felt I was being told, because of who I was. That I have no way to possibly think outside my Twilight brainwashing and make my own choices
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  #46  
June 6th, 2010, 09:41 PM
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Maybe I'm just blind to all the Twilight sexism drama, but I would disagree that "Star Wars, Star Trek and Sci-Fi get poked at but not like this one." If you're actually seriously into those three things you listed, you stand to take a pretty big hit for it. You get pretty much automatically painted as a nerd, dork, and social reject that still lives with their parents and has never had a relationship.

Perhaps Twilight seems to be poked at so much worse because it's new. Star Trek has made only one new movie in the last seven years, as opposed to Twilight which is on it's third one in three years (I think?).

ETA: I should have quote Michelle for this one, but when I started typing hers was the last comment on the page, and then it exploded.

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; June 6th, 2010 at 09:46 PM.
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  #47  
June 6th, 2010, 09:42 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I'm passionate in almost every single debate I'm in. I don't waste my time entering debates if I don't have to time to both invest in posting as well as do my research. You can find that well documented. So it seems interesting that my passion in THIS thread is "personal much"
When in other threads it's taken as normal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
Maybe I'm just blind to all the Twilight sexism drama, but I would disagree that "Star Wars, Star Trek and Sci-Fi get poked at but not like this one." If you're actually seriously into those three things you listed, you stand to take a pretty big hit for it. You get pretty much automatically painted as a nerd, dork, and social reject that still lives with their parents and has never had a relationship.

Perhaps Twilight seems to be poked at so much worse because it's new. Star Trek has made only one new movie in the last seven years, as opposed to Twilight which is on it's third one in three years (I think?).
They were booed at Comic Con by the very same people you say are castigated. The comic book fans themselves, booed and hated Twilight for existing in their world.

Quote:

(If you can't tell, at least 99% of the signs they are holding say "Twilight Ruined Comic-con")
People PICKETED outside the New Moon Panel.
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  #48  
June 6th, 2010, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lash View Post
I think the whole "personal much" didn't really make sense. Like somehow I can only defend this girl vehemently because of the topic she's attached to. That I can't actually have a mind about this topic. It almost felt like the statement is that I can't think on my own about this topic, because of what it's attached to and because I have an interest in Twilight.

It didn't come across as "Oh ok I get it now, I believe you". It was pretty much " you don't seem to get it, imagine those poor reporters, you can't see this topic for what it is" and then followed that up with "oh personal much". No actually it's not that personal. I could very easily defend the same kind of topic or the same star. Do I have more information at my hand because of who she is? Yep. But I'd put the same effort into any other topic. I'm not responding emotionally. I can think for myself. I don't make excuses for the chick because she's in Twilight. I defend her because I think she's a fallible human that he world needs to finally give a freaking break

It honestly felt degrading. It felt the same as when people used to tell me I couldn't debate in parenting debates because I surely knew nothing as I wasn't a parent. I have nothing to add to this debate is what I felt I was being told, because of who I was. That I have no way to possibly think outside my Twilight brainwashing and make my own choices
Okay, well that wasn't even close to what I was implying. I said it seemed like you were making it personal because of the nature of this response:

Quote:
Yes please paint me a certain way too and put words in my mouth. I CAN understand it. From a 17 year old. Can you forgive it already and move on to the idea that's she got older and learned from her ways?

We were discussing Kristen Stewart and then suddenly you were saying that I was putting words in your mouth and trying to paint you a certain way. It actually confused the hell out of me. And I was actually asking you if you could imagine what that must have felt like as a reporter. It wasn't rhetorical. You know, because I know you can think for yourself and I was interested in hearing what you had to say regarding that.
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  #49  
June 6th, 2010, 09:48 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Then why the personal much statement? How is that not degrading honestly? How am I different in this topic than any other topic? How is that not something that got pulled out just to kinda hit home
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  #50  
June 6th, 2010, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lash View Post
They were booed at Comic Con by the very same people you say are castigated. The comic book fans themselves, booed and hated Twilight for existing in their world.

People PICKETED outside the New Moon Panel.
I wouldn't really see Twilight as having anything to do with Comic-con, or even science fiction. It's romance that involves some fantasy themes. And just because Comic Con goers don't like Twilight, or think it has a place in their "world" doesn't mean that Twilight fans are more heavily persecuted and shunned than Trekkies and the like.

Wanted to add: I get that people were jerks to those that represent Twilight, but I don't understand how that means the hate of Twilight is based on sexism and so much worse than the hate for sci-fi.

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; June 6th, 2010 at 09:56 PM.
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  #51  
June 6th, 2010, 09:53 PM
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I don't think you're different in this topic rather than in any other topic. You've jumped my azz more than once because you don't think I'm debating up to a certain standard, and I was equally confused in those threads because it somehow got personal. (If I remember correctly, I was called lazy or something similar for using a news article instead of a journal article.) It's cool, though. I enjoy debating with you because you make me work harder.

Again, the "personal much" comment was made directly in reference to you making it personal about yourself (excuse that redundancy), i.e. "please paint me in a certain way and put words into my mouth." Once again, it confused me. I'm still baffled at how this conversation is ending up.
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  #52  
June 6th, 2010, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
I wouldn't really see Twilight as having anything to do with Comic-con, or even science fiction. It's romance that involves some fantasy themes. And just because Comic Con goers don't like Twilight, or think it has a place in their "world" doesn't mean that Twilight fans are more heavily persecuted and shunned than Trekkies and the like.

Wanted to add: I get that people were jerks to those that represent Twilight, but I don't understand how that means the hate of Twilight is based on sexism and so much worse than the hate for sci-fi.
I've been a Star Wars fan, Star Trek fan, Wonder Woman comic book fan, and action movie fan my entire life. I'm a new Twilight fan as the genre is new. I have never seen William Shatner fans, Han Solo, or Carrie Fisher fans called pedophiles and hypocrites like Twilight fans get. I see Twilight getting attacks because it caters to a heterosexual female crowd.
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  #53  
June 6th, 2010, 10:01 PM
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Honestly. I am a Star Wars fan. I've never seen as many HATE comments directed at me when I wear anything associated with Star Wars as I do with anything Twilight.

Quote:
Why The Twilight Hate Has Gotten Boring

Why The Twilight Hate Has Gotten Boring When the trailer for new Twilight movie Eclipse played at a recent fan convention in San Francisco, the crowd erupted in boos so loud the soundtrack was drowned out. That's when I realized hating Twilight had gotten boring.

Back when hating Twilight was cool

Maybe it's my knee-jerk tendency to recoil from mob behavior, but it seems to me that when hating something has become such a cliche that people catcall it before even watching the trailer - well, that's not a taste judgment anymore. It's just neuro-twitches working their way through lemming brains. If there was ever a time when hating Twilight was cutting-edge and cool, it was when the series was just a crypto-Mormon set of books about a mopey princess and her sparkly, obsessive prince whose penis has the power to blacken her womb.

Only the discerning hated those novels. There were interesting reasons to do it, like the fact that the books taught women that men were supposed to take care of them. And that it was OK to promise your infant daughter in marriage to a creepy adult guy who is in love with you.

Why The Twilight Hate Has Gotten Boring But hating the movies? Anybody who has ever sneered at Hot Topic can do that. Hell, you can probably buy anti-Twilight gear at Hot Topic, right next to the pro-Twilight belt buckles. My point is that people are hating on the movies so vocally not because they have actually watched them, evaluated them in the context of other paranormal romance narratives, and deemed them aesthetically inferior. They hate them because it's what everybody else is doing. Especially men.

Girls suck


Among commentators who are far too mature to break into enthusiastic boos when they watch a movie, there is a general consensus that these movies are "just for girls/women/mothers/daughters/sisters." I can't tell you how many men have told me informally - or written formally in various publications - things like, "My daughter is obsessed with Twilight and I don't understand," or "My wife and daughters are downstairs watching a Twilight movie. I am hiding upstairs."

I guess I'm glad that women have discovered how to unseat male power over the home entertainment system with the push of a DVD player button. But I think if you scratch the surface of comments like that, what you find underneath is a room full of men screaming "booo" because they hate pop culture aimed at women. Or because they are scared of it. Whatever.

The point is: What the hell is wrong with women or anybody enjoying stories about girls ******* sexy monsters? Seriously, is that really any dumber than men fantasizing about sex with the chick in Species, or elf girl in Lord of the Rings? Or drooling over pictures of Kirk with the blue alien? The answer is no. It's equally as dumb. And equally as awesome.

Congratulations - you've discovered your fantasies are stupid

Now that Academy Award winning director Bill Condon is on the short list to direct the final two movies in the Twilight cycle, it seems that even Hollywood is acknowledging that Twilight is more than a trashy teen phenom. It's a powerful story that that hooks people despite the sparkles and emo dialogue.

Why The Twilight Hate Has Gotten Boring And that is yet another reason I have grown bored with the Twilight hate. When confronted with a convention full of booing dorks, I just feel like shrugging disdainfully and saying, "Congratulations, boys - you have discovered what the entire world knew all along. Your fantasies are stupid." Because really, Twilight at its heart is no different from any other fantasy franchise. It's like Star Wars - except it's set on Earth and the goal is to penetrate Bella's womb with some guy's flaming seed, rather than shooting it into the Death Star. OK, not really - but you get what I mean. We're talking about adolescent power epics, with all the glory and embarrassment they entail.

I'm not saying people will come to cherish Twilight the way they do Star Wars. I'm just sick of hearing everybody trash Twilight for the very things they love in other stories: Impossible romance, epic battles that transcend generations, silly costumes, and growing up superpowered. Hating Twilight is just so tired, and it makes us all look like ********. Maybe it's time to start figuring out what's cool about Twilight.
Are there entire forums for hating Star Wars? I found a blogspot for it

Google Hate Star Wars. Then Google Hate Twilight.
Why I Hate Twilight | Bookstove




TwilightSucks.com

Why Guys should hate Twilight

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/friends-chat/anyone-else-can-t-stand-twilight/t.24736495/"

I hate Twilight community

Twilight Hate Forum

Twilight Sucks has thousands of entries about fans. Ridiculing them. Mocking them.
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  #54  
June 6th, 2010, 10:03 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by Lash View Post
Honestly. I am a Star Wars fan. I've never seen as many HATE comments directed at me when I wear anything associated with Star Wars as I do with anything Twilight.



Are there entire forums for hating Star Wars? I found a blogspot for it

Google Hate Star Wars. Then Google Hate Twilight.
Why I Hate Twilight | Bookstove




TwilightSucks.com

Why Guys should hate Twilight

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/friends-chat/anyone-else-can-t-stand-twilight/t.24736495/"

I hate Twilight community

Twilight Hate Forum

Twilight Sucks has thousands of entries about fans. Ridiculing them. Mocking them.
Thank you! (I'm glad it's not just me that sees this.)
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  #55  
June 6th, 2010, 10:44 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
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Yeah, sorry.. but I still don't get it. Twilight is brand new, and it is freaking EVERYWHERE. i hate hearing the same song on the radio six times in an hour, and I roll my eyes when I walk through the mall and see 15 people wearing shirts with the same picture of Jacob on them. You want to talk about sexism, just look at that poor kid. The only images I see of him are shirtless. It's perfectly okay to objectify him.

Star Trek has been around for 70 years. Twilight has been around for.. I dunno. 6? 10? At this point, Star Trek is virtually lost to the public eye. It doesn't get as much publicity, it isn't everywhere, all the time, and as a result, it doesn't CURRENTLY take as much hate as Twilight.

10 years ago, when they were making Star Trek movies, and airing weekly episodes, it didn't get any less hate than Twilight is getting now. But that's somewhat hard to look up, given the popularity of the internet 10-15 years ago.

Maybe Star Trek fans would also be called pedophiles if middle aged women were drooling over a shirtless teenage boy who happened to have pointed ears and up-swept eyebrows. Why is it creepy when a middle-aged man wears a Miley T-shirt, but it's fine for a middle-aged woman to wear a Jacob shirt?

It's difficult to compare a 60 year old television program to a current one. It's difficult to compare a franchise that's made one movie in seven years (and it wasn't even true to the real series, and that die hard Star Trek fans didn't even like) with a franchise that very recently made 3 movies (whose fans actually like them). Compare Twilight to what Star Trek was 10-15 years ago, and then maybe I'll believe you.

Twilight is "for girls" and people happen to not like it. Correlation does not equal causation.

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; June 6th, 2010 at 10:53 PM.
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  #56  
June 6th, 2010, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Keskes View Post

Maybe Star Trek fans would also be called pedophiles if middle aged women were drooling over a shirtless teenage boy who happened to have pointed ears and up-swept eyebrows. Why is it creepy when a middle-aged man wears a Miley T-shirt, but it's fine for a middle-aged woman to wear a Jacob shirt.
I kind of agree with this. I am a bit creeped out by the women that are in their 30's and 40's and are falling over themselves for Twilight. No offense to anyone here or anything, I don't mean to insult, but I find it "creepy" when a middle aged woman is wearing a Jacob shirt. I also found it creepy when my middle aged aunt got a winnie the pooh tattoo on her ankle.. lol.
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  #57  
June 6th, 2010, 11:31 PM
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I gotta say that a lot of people don't just jump on the "I hate Twilight" bandwagon just because. It's not a personal vendetta against it just for the fact that people want to make fun of the fans of the series. Sure there might be some people that do it for that reason, but not all. As with any other new, major hit, there are going to be people that rebel against it. That's life.

Twilight is good to me for one reason only... it gets kids to read. I HATE Twilight. I think it sucks. For one, I hate vampire type crap. Hate it. That is one genre of horror movies, books, stories, and so on and so forth that I never got into. When living with my old room mate I watched Twilight to give it a chance. The movie had absolutely no climax or substance to it. It sucked. It ended so abruptly that I seriously thought the DVD skipped and I missed a ton of the story somehow. I re-watched it, just to see that no, it really just ends and had no substance to the movie. It sucked. I started to read the book because my room mate said it was much better... yup, that sucked too. I am an avid reader, an English major, and English teacher, I give all literature a chance. It sucked. I can see why others don't like it.... it really was not a well-written book. The movie sucked.

I have no idea why it's such a huge hit. I love that kids are reading, but if they read Twilight it makes me wonder why they don't like actual literature that has substance, because that has to be one of the driest books I've ever read. I'd rather read a statistics book.

Sorry, I'll end my rant now, but I just don't understand the love for it. It sucked. **shrugs**
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  #58  
June 6th, 2010, 11:35 PM
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I counted eight uses of the word "sucked" in that single post. I smell a new debater superlative...
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  #59  
June 6th, 2010, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
I counted eight uses of the word "sucked" in that single post. I smell a new debater superlative...
LOL! Yeah, synonyms are not working tonight. Brain is not working today at all.

Twilight is horrid, atrocious, IT SUCKS! It's boring, horrific, crappy.... yeah yeah you get the point

I spent my day tearing apart the house for a 20$ bill I knew I had. Seriously, looked EVERYWHERE and was determined to find it. I then concluded that my nephew must have taken it when he spent the night.

I found it, in a place I looked at LEAST 10 times today. So yes, my brain absolutely is not there today
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  #60  
June 7th, 2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
Yeah, sorry.. but I still don't get it. Twilight is brand new, and it is freaking EVERYWHERE. i hate hearing the same song on the radio six times in an hour, and I roll my eyes when I walk through the mall and see 15 people wearing shirts with the same picture of Jacob on them. You want to talk about sexism, just look at that poor kid. The only images I see of him are shirtless. It's perfectly okay to objectify him.

Star Trek has been around for 70 years. Twilight has been around for.. I dunno. 6? 10? At this point, Star Trek is virtually lost to the public eye. It doesn't get as much publicity, it isn't everywhere, all the time, and as a result, it doesn't CURRENTLY take as much hate as Twilight.

10 years ago, when they were making Star Trek movies, and airing weekly episodes, it didn't get any less hate than Twilight is getting now. But that's somewhat hard to look up, given the popularity of the internet 10-15 years ago.

Maybe Star Trek fans would also be called pedophiles if middle aged women were drooling over a shirtless teenage boy who happened to have pointed ears and up-swept eyebrows. Why is it creepy when a middle-aged man wears a Miley T-shirt, but it's fine for a middle-aged woman to wear a Jacob shirt?

It's difficult to compare a 60 year old television program to a current one. It's difficult to compare a franchise that's made one movie in seven years (and it wasn't even true to the real series, and that die hard Star Trek fans didn't even like) with a franchise that very recently made 3 movies (whose fans actually like them). Compare Twilight to what Star Trek was 10-15 years ago, and then maybe I'll believe you.

Twilight is "for girls" and people happen to not like it. Correlation does not equal causation.
Please show me how Star Trek didn't get any less hate than Twilight. It is comparable. In fact part of the reason why I have an issue with it is because Cpt. Kirk's character was sleeping around in the shows and it didn't get any ridicule, but the opposite, appraise. He is an American Icon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Froggy View Post
I gotta say that a lot of people don't just jump on the "I hate Twilight" bandwagon just because. It's not a personal vendetta against it just for the fact that people want to make fun of the fans of the series. Sure there might be some people that do it for that reason, but not all. As with any other new, major hit, there are going to be people that rebel against it. That's life.

Twilight is good to me for one reason only... it gets kids to read. I HATE Twilight. I think it sucks. For one, I hate vampire type crap. Hate it. That is one genre of horror movies, books, stories, and so on and so forth that I never got into. When living with my old room mate I watched Twilight to give it a chance. The movie had absolutely no climax or substance to it. It sucked. It ended so abruptly that I seriously thought the DVD skipped and I missed a ton of the story somehow. I re-watched it, just to see that no, it really just ends and had no substance to the movie. It sucked. I started to read the book because my room mate said it was much better... yup, that sucked too. I am an avid reader, an English major, and English teacher, I give all literature a chance. It sucked. I can see why others don't like it.... it really was not a well-written book. The movie sucked.

I have no idea why it's such a huge hit. I love that kids are reading, but if they read Twilight it makes me wonder why they don't like actual literature that has substance, because that has to be one of the driest books I've ever read. I'd rather read a statistics book.

Sorry, I'll end my rant now, but I just don't understand the love for it. It sucked. **shrugs**
I get not liking things that are popular, or has a huge fan base but I know I don't go out of my way to explain I hate X,Y and Z show and I certainly don't go out of my way to join those groups or start one. You don't like it but you're hardly putting down everyone for liking it. That's the difference here with Twilight. It's like people aren't allowed to hate gays so they hate Twilight fans. To me, it's just a manifestation of their hate towards other humans.
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