Log In Sign Up

Gerber Good Start Formula Commerical


Forum: Heated Debates

Notices

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to boards@justmommies.com.

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Heated Debates LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #41  
June 9th, 2010, 07:36 AM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
No, that's not the same case. The one in the link I provided pertained to newborns in an NICU. The issue is that powdered formula is more likely to to contain food-born pathogens because it is not a sterile product. Even if the prep water and bottles are sterilized, it does not eliminate the spores that may be in the powder itself. In each of the links I provided, the powder itself was the source of contamination.

ETA: in the New Mexico cases, one of the baby's formula canisters was available for testing and matched the bacteria strain in his body, while the canister was unavailable for testing for the other baby.

And for the sake of clarity, I'm not arguing that "formula kills"; I'm refuting the notion that contaminated formula isn't a concern in North America like it is in China.

Last edited by Tofu Bacon; June 9th, 2010 at 08:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
June 9th, 2010, 07:41 AM
IAmMomMomIAm
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was a bit surprised that they GIVE newborns powdered formula.. maybe they started using just the liquid stuff after the NICU studies? They say the powder can be contaminated, and therefore recommend newborns only get the liquid ready-made stuff, because it's sterile.. I guess I never realized it isn't always like that.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
June 9th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
I was a bit surprised that they GIVE newborns powdered formula.. maybe they started using just the liquid stuff after the NICU studies? They say the powder can be contaminated, and therefore recommend newborns only get the liquid ready-made stuff, because it's sterile.. I guess I never realized it isn't always like that.
From what I gather, there are rare circumstances where a powdered formula must be given because there is no ready-to-feed alternative.
__________________________________________________ ______________

An interesting commentary on infant formula safety:

Infant Formula Safety -- Baker 110 (4): 833 -- Pediatrics
Quote:
Manufacturers are required to follow "good manufacturing practice," but no requirement for sterility is specified. In fact, the FDA performs bacterial counts on infant formula, and up to 10 000 colony forming units per gram powder are acceptable. Powdered formula is not guaranteed nor required to be free of pathogenic organisms.

Powdered formula is made from pasteurized (ie, sterile) liquid that is then freeze-spray dried into a powder. It is possible for organisms to be introduced in the final stages of production.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
June 9th, 2010, 08:19 AM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,141
For the record, like Cori, I'm not advocating that formula kills, but Kimberly asked for proof that formula has been responsible for deaths and I am confused about why all of the evidence provided isn't good enough. I feel like there wouldn't be so much resistance if we were talking about something like contaminated beef.
__________________





Reply With Quote
  #45  
June 9th, 2010, 01:46 PM
KimberlyD0
Guest
Posts: n/a
The entire point I was aiming at you've now both proved. Formula doesn't kill babies.

Contaminents IN formula kills babies.

Its an importent distinction. If you go around saying "formula kills" then it is just not right.

Formula, like any other food, has the potential to become contaminated, which can then make people sick or even kill Them. To me its like saying Chicken kills people. Chicken doesn't kill people. Improperly prepared contaminated chicken can kill.

Notice EVERY case, US and China, or anywhere else, that you all have linked it was a contaminated formula that caused the death. Not an uncontaminated properly prompaired formula. So no it has not been proved to me that formula in of itself is deadly.

It does speak of great need for proper perperation, and testing to ensure that these contaminations don't happen in the first place.


What I wanted was this proof that formula that isn't contaminated and is properly made has dirtectly lead to death. Obviously contaminated formula, like contaminated food can kill.

Breastmilk can also become contaminated, its not immune to these issues either. However no one would ever sa BF is dangerous, which it isn't, or that it should be avoided because of contaminents, because they shouldn't. But juts like everyother food sorce in the world, it has the potential to become contaminated. Granted the contamination is not the same types as whats in formula and hasn't lead to any deaths, but its there. BM is amazing, but not perfict. Course thats mostly our fault since its enviromental issues that are contaminating the milk in the first place.
new.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/380948.stm
Moms mull contaminated breastmilk : Super Eco

BTW I want to be clear I am not saying breastmilk is bad or dangerous. Breastfeeding, even if milk has enviromental contaminents, is still better then formula when it can be done.

I'm saying that its importent that people are carefull when they make the claim that formula kills. Because again, properly made, properly manufactured, and non contaminated formula doesn't kill babies.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
June 9th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kimberly, I'm going to say it again, only slower this time:

I. am. not. arguing. that. "formula kills"; I. am. refuting. the. notion. that. contaminated. formula. isn't. a. concern. in. North. America. like. it. is. in. China.

If anything, contaminated formula is more of threat than improperly-prepared formula, because the one preparing the formula can do everything right and still have a deathly ill baby due to circumstances beyond their control. That has been the whole point of this discussion all along, as per your requests:

Post #10 "Can you show any cases in Canada, the US, or any other 1st world country where properly regulated, domestic formula has directly caused the death of a child when used properly??"

Post #13 "Again can you show a direct link in Canada or the US where a baby has died from domestic formula? Thats been both made correctly by the parents AND also made with proper regulations and safty measures?"

Last edited by Tofu Bacon; June 9th, 2010 at 02:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
June 9th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Mom of 2 boys!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post
The entire point I was aiming at you've now both proved. Formula doesn't kill babies.

Contaminents IN formula kills babies.

Its an importent distinction. If you go around saying "formula kills" then it is just not right.

Formula, like any other food, has the potential to become contaminated, which can then make people sick or even kill Them. To me its like saying Chicken kills people. Chicken doesn't kill people. Improperly prepared contaminated chicken can kill.

Notice EVERY case, US and China, or anywhere else, that you all have linked it was a contaminated formula that caused the death. Not an uncontaminated properly prompaired formula. So no it has not been proved to me that formula in of itself is deadly.

It does speak of great need for proper perperation, and testing to ensure that these contaminations don't happen in the first place.


What I wanted was this proof that formula that isn't contaminated and is properly made has dirtectly lead to death. Obviously contaminated formula, like contaminated food can kill.

Breastmilk can also become contaminated, its not immune to these issues either. However no one would ever sa BF is dangerous, which it isn't, or that it should be avoided because of contaminents, because they shouldn't. But juts like everyother food sorce in the world, it has the potential to become contaminated. Granted the contamination is not the same types as whats in formula and hasn't lead to any deaths, but its there. BM is amazing, but not perfict. Course thats mostly our fault since its enviromental issues that are contaminating the milk in the first place.
new.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/380948.stm
Moms mull contaminated breastmilk : Super Eco

BTW I want to be clear I am not saying breastmilk is bad or dangerous. Breastfeeding, even if milk has enviromental contaminents, is still better then formula when it can be done.

I'm saying that its importent that people are carefull when they make the claim that formula kills. Because again, properly made, properly manufactured, and non contaminated formula doesn't kill babies.


Great Post!! I agree , don't worry you aren't alone
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #48  
June 9th, 2010, 02:13 PM
KimberlyD0
Guest
Posts: n/a
]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu Bacon View Post
Kimberly, I'm going to say it again, only slower this time:

I. am. not. arguing. that. "formula kills"; I. am. refuting. the. notion. that. contaminated. formula. isn't. a. concern. in. North. America. like. it. is. in. China.

If anything, contaminated formula is more of threat than improperly-prepared formula, because the one preparing the formula can do everything right and still have a deathly ill baby due to circumstances beyond their control. That has been the whole point of this discussion all along, as per your requests:

Post #10 "Can you show any cases in Canada, the US, or any other 1st world country where properly regulated, domestic formula has directly caused the death of a child when used properly??"

Post #13 "Again can you show a direct link in Canada or the US where a baby has died from domestic formula? Thats been both made correctly by the parents AND also made with proper regulations and safty measures?"
Ah I see the confusion. I didn't make my self clear enough. I was looking for cases where the formula wasn't contaminated. In all these cases it was contaminated. Thats what I meant by properly manufactured. Properly manufactured it should not have contaminations. Saddly because its a food nothing can be 100%

Serves me right for debateing on 0 sleep lol I didn't even notice I wasn't explaining my self right.

This entire things stemed from this statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by JennTheMomma View Post
and formula does kill babies.
A statment that is incorrect since formula doesn't kill babies when its made properly, is not contaminate and follows proper regulations. The statment can also come across and pretty cruel or cold when parents have no where to turn but formula. Its essentially saying by formula feeding your baby your going to kill them. Which is not true.

Thats what I was getting at.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
June 9th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post
]

Ah I see the confusion. I didn't make my self clear enough. I was looking for cases where the formula wasn't contaminated. In all these cases it was contaminated. Thats what I meant by properly manufactured. Properly manufactured it should not have contaminations. Saddly because its a food nothing can be 100%
The formula was manufactured properly. As per the link supplied in Post #43, properly-manufactured powdered formula is allowed up to 10,000 colony forming units (ie. strains of bacteria) per gram powder, because sterility is not possible with a powdered formula. Simply put: a certain level of contamination is expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post
]This entire things stemed from this statement

A statment that is incorrect since formula doesn't kill babies when its made properly, is not contaminate and follows proper regulations. The statment can also come across and pretty cruel or cold when parents have no where to turn but formula. Its essentially saying by formula feeding your baby your going to kill them. Which is not true.

Thats what I was getting at.
Great, but you continue to debate Jess and myself for not proving the "formula kills", when neither of us argued it in the first place. You were provided with exactly what you asked for, which was proof of properly-manufactured and properly-prepared formula causing death. The back-pedaling and goal-shifting it getting rather old.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
June 9th, 2010, 04:45 PM
KimberlyD0
Guest
Posts: n/a
I really must not be making myself clear. I'm really trying to here.

The statement I argued was "formula does kill babies" which is just not an entirely true statement. Its equivelent with saying formula is poison. Which its not.

THATS what I was argueing.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
June 9th, 2010, 04:54 PM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,141
It's not a false statement, either. Cars kill people, swimming pools kill people, hiking in the woods kills people... Just because it happens doesn't mean any of those things are inherently a death sentence, just like formula isn't. I think you're trying to find meaning where there was none. No one in this thread has called formula poison, and no one is arguing that feeding your baby formula is going to kill that baby.
__________________





Reply With Quote
  #52  
June 9th, 2010, 05:47 PM
KimberlyD0
Guest
Posts: n/a
Except that someone DID say that when they said "Formula kills babies"
Reply With Quote
  #53  
June 9th, 2010, 06:05 PM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,141
I can't tell if you're just messing with us. Seriously. She never said "formula kills every baby." That's the distinction, and you yourself pointed out that pretty much any type of food is likely responsible for a death.
__________________





Reply With Quote
  #54  
June 13th, 2010, 01:20 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 131
I use the Gerber good start protect plus. My baby does wonderful on it. He doesn't have much spit up or gas and doesn't seem to get tummy aches. I had really wanted to breastfeed and planned it. I started it in the hospital but due to lack of help by the time I got home on a weekend, there was no help at all. I was exhausted, I maybe had 10 broken hours of sleep in a 3 day period. I tried to nurse my little one for over an hour and he just kept screaming when I took him off. I tried a binkie because I thought he just wanted to suck on something. He wouldn't stop crying no matter how hard we tried. I was so stressed from no sleep that I was getting really bad anxiety. I gave him a bottle and he drank it and was quite satisfied. Every breast feeding literature I read told me that colostrum was all a baby needed for the first couple days. Well it was wrong. My milk didn't come in til maybe a couple days later and by then he was on the bottle and doing well. And I was so sore from engorgement and improper latching. And to top it all off I developed mastitis! I had to give up after that. So I kept him on the bottle.

I wish more moms would not judge FF so much because I had really wanted to breast feed and thought I'd learned everything and it would be simple. And they put out so much literature and education but when you go home you are kind of on your own. I had a lac consultant who could have came but it was going to take her nearly a week to get to me! And by that time I had developed the infection.

It really sucks to have to come and read such negative things about FF kind of makes a person feel inferior to BF moms.
__________________






Reply With Quote
  #55  
June 13th, 2010, 04:50 PM
KimberlyD0
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Child View Post
I use the Gerber good start protect plus. My baby does wonderful on it. He doesn't have much spit up or gas and doesn't seem to get tummy aches. I had really wanted to breastfeed and planned it. I started it in the hospital but due to lack of help by the time I got home on a weekend, there was no help at all. I was exhausted, I maybe had 10 broken hours of sleep in a 3 day period. I tried to nurse my little one for over an hour and he just kept screaming when I took him off. I tried a binkie because I thought he just wanted to suck on something. He wouldn't stop crying no matter how hard we tried. I was so stressed from no sleep that I was getting really bad anxiety. I gave him a bottle and he drank it and was quite satisfied. Every breast feeding literature I read told me that colostrum was all a baby needed for the first couple days. Well it was wrong. My milk didn't come in til maybe a couple days later and by then he was on the bottle and doing well. And I was so sore from engorgement and improper latching. And to top it all off I developed mastitis! I had to give up after that. So I kept him on the bottle.

I wish more moms would not judge FF so much because I had really wanted to breast feed and thought I'd learned everything and it would be simple. And they put out so much literature and education but when you go home you are kind of on your own. I had a lac consultant who could have came but it was going to take her nearly a week to get to me! And by that time I had developed the infection.

It really sucks to have to come and read such negative things about FF kind of makes a person feel inferior to BF moms.

your not alone. Many people, including myself, know exactly how you feel. FF doesn't make you in inferior mother. Not in the least.

on the new baby
Reply With Quote
  #56  
June 13th, 2010, 06:25 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
Guest
Posts: n/a
No one in this particular thread was saying that formula feeding moms are inferior, just that formula is inferior to breast milk. It's an important distinction.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
June 13th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post
your not alone. Many people, including myself, know exactly how you feel. FF doesn't make you in inferior mother. Not in the least.

on the new baby

Thank you so much. We would have been an ideal breastfeeding team. The baby was eager to BF, but I couldn't get him to latch on properly at all. It was definitely a lot more difficult that I thought it would be! Maybe I will be able to do it with my next child.
__________________






Reply With Quote
  #58  
June 13th, 2010, 07:37 PM
HappyHippy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pavia, Italy
Posts: 5,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 View Post
Except that someone DID say that when they said "Formula kills babies"
I said "formula kills babies" because it does. It kills in developed countries, and other countries. I bet there has been a baby that has died from formula in every single country where formula is availabe. Babies can die when formula is still made correctly because of things found in formula, not just contaminents, but imitations of things that are in breastmilk.

Here is a statement from the FDA, which comes from the book The Politics of Breastfeeding, on page 68.

"The FDA have not affirmed the safety of Martek's algal DHA and fungal ARA oils added to infant formula. In a written statement, FDA officials noted: 'Some studies have reported unexpected deaths among infants who consumed formula supplemented with LCPAs. The unexpected deaths were attributed to SIDS, sepsis or necrotizing enterocolitis. Also some studies have reported adverse ecents and otehr morbidities including diarrhoea, flatulence, jaundice and apnea in infants fed LCPAs'.

Enfamil prides themselves on having 3 times the DHA than other formulas. Yet synthetic DHA and ARA has been shown to be very dangerous for babies. This is in USA. Many babies, if not most, cannot tolerate formula. Neither milk based or soy based, and soy based formula isn't even good for babies at all.

I never said formula is poisen, I don't think it is. I said it kills babies, not every baby, but it does kill babies. I know this for a fact, the FDA even says it has killed babies in USA. This is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Child View Post
I use the Gerber good start protect plus. My baby does wonderful on it. He doesn't have much spit up or gas and doesn't seem to get tummy aches. I had really wanted to breastfeed and planned it. I started it in the hospital but due to lack of help by the time I got home on a weekend, there was no help at all. I was exhausted, I maybe had 10 broken hours of sleep in a 3 day period. I tried to nurse my little one for over an hour and he just kept screaming when I took him off. I tried a binkie because I thought he just wanted to suck on something. He wouldn't stop crying no matter how hard we tried. I was so stressed from no sleep that I was getting really bad anxiety. I gave him a bottle and he drank it and was quite satisfied. Every breast feeding literature I read told me that colostrum was all a baby needed for the first couple days. Well it was wrong. My milk didn't come in til maybe a couple days later and by then he was on the bottle and doing well. And I was so sore from engorgement and improper latching. And to top it all off I developed mastitis! I had to give up after that. So I kept him on the bottle.

I wish more moms would not judge FF so much because I had really wanted to breast feed and thought I'd learned everything and it would be simple. And they put out so much literature and education but when you go home you are kind of on your own. I had a lac consultant who could have came but it was going to take her nearly a week to get to me! And by that time I had developed the infection.

It really sucks to have to come and read such negative things about FF kind of makes a person feel inferior to BF moms.
You're not alone, and I don't think anyone here thinks anything less of FF moms. I FF'd my first. Like you I had bad support with BFing and didn't have any help or support. I ended up using Enfamil, which made my first very colicky and spit up a lot. But changing to a different Enfamil formula did a lot of good to Hunter. He's almost 3 now and is very healthy.
__________________
Mama to G, L & twins F & M
Started off 2013 homebirthing suprise twins Fia Celesta & Maddalena Isabella
Reply With Quote
  #59  
June 14th, 2010, 06:16 AM
IAmMomMomIAm
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think the statement that "Many babies, if not most, cannot tolerate formula" needs to actually be backed up with some statistics. Because yes, babies die from formula, but it's not as if a huge astronomical amount of infants are being killed by these products. I'd like to see studies on the actual number of babies that "can't tolerate" formula.

This is why I hate breast feeding books.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
June 14th, 2010, 07:48 AM
HappyHippy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pavia, Italy
Posts: 5,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
I think the statement that "Many babies, if not most, cannot tolerate formula" needs to actually be backed up with some statistics. Because yes, babies die from formula, but it's not as if a huge astronomical amount of infants are being killed by these products. I'd like to see studies on the actual number of babies that "can't tolerate" formula.

This is why I hate breast feeding books.
I don't have reports. My Pediatrician actually said it, and I saw it in an article a while ago that I no longer have, it was in a Pediatric journal. I have seen it with my own child and kids who are formula fed. The protein in formula is what they have a problem with, normally casein. The proteins are not broken down enough and formula is harder for them to digest. That's why more formula fed babies have colic than breastfeeding babies (I will try to find a link to that study about colic). Babies weren't ment to drink formula, which is why women lactate. I know that some women can't lactate though. Formula is a choice. I have nothing against women who use it, and I have no disrespect for them.
__________________
Mama to G, L & twins F & M
Started off 2013 homebirthing suprise twins Fia Celesta & Maddalena Isabella
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:53 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0