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  #41  
September 12th, 2011, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayandsofiasmommy View Post
I would NEVER allow tackle football until high school. I also would NEVER allow participation in Boy Scouts b/c of their stance on homosexuality.

I saw the comment about some chapters not being anti-gay in Boy Scouts. This is not true. You cannot be a Scout leader if you are gay, period. I do not want to be a part of ANY organization that says that is ok, whether my local chapter agrees or not.

Besides those two things, I think other things are ok. Can't think of any others...
There is a diffrence in being openly gay and can't be gay period. Since you wouldn't know if someone was gay or not. Not all gay men talk with a lisp and wear tight clothing. I've yet to meet someone who has been in boy scouts have a talk about homosexuality in boy scouts. My DH has 2 gay aunts and yet went to Boy Scouts for most of his childhood life. Never said anything about homosexuality to him. And maybe we should start trying to change their homophobic policy.
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  #42  
September 12th, 2011, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
There is a diffrence in being openly gay and can't be gay period. Since you wouldn't know if someone was gay or not. Not all gay men talk with a lisp and wear tight clothing. I've yet to meet someone who has been in boy scouts have a talk about homosexuality in boy scouts. My DH has 2 gay aunts and yet went to Boy Scouts for most of his childhood life. Never said anything about homosexuality to him. And maybe we should start trying to change their homophobic policy.
I'm confused as to what your DH's two gay aunts have to do with it? It's not as if the boy scouts kick out kids who are related to or know gay people. And yes, of course, if somebody is in the closet, it's not like the boy scouts will know; but it is their policy that openly gay persons are not allowed to be members or in leadership positions, regardless if they "talk with a lisp and wear tight clothing".

And many have tried to change their homophobic policy. The Supreme Court have upheld their right to have such a policy. I would hope that if enough potential future members end up not joining because of their antiquated policies, then they will be forced to change or go under. I'm encouraged by how many moms on this board would not allow their kids to join.
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  #43  
September 13th, 2011, 05:25 AM
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Right now I'm wary of letting Noah join ANYTHING. He looses interest halfway through the season and it's a big waste of time and $$. He pretty much finished wrestling, but then started claiming he couldn't breathe (he did swimming just fine) and Rob took him out. He was in the Excel Wrestling at that point already too, I don't know why he got bored, he was never pushed, and it was the special 'one on one' time with dad too. Saying he couldn't breathe really scared Rob though, so one day they went, and the next they didn't. Not sure if HE would be up for letting him play football.

I will be putting them back in swimming for the winter session, RJ will even go this year since he is tall enough. I think
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  #44  
September 13th, 2011, 05:39 AM
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The girls are pretty much open to try what they want. I will strongly discourage any activities that are "looks-centric".

I'd also like to have it so they do as close to equal as possible between intellectual and physical activities. So if they want to play soccer for example then I'd want them to take an art, music or language one as well.
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  #45  
September 13th, 2011, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredmom View Post
I'm confused as to what your DH's two gay aunts have to do with it? It's not as if the boy scouts kick out kids who are related to or know gay people. And yes, of course, if somebody is in the closet, it's not like the boy scouts will know; but it is their policy that openly gay persons are not allowed to be members or in leadership positions, regardless if they "talk with a lisp and wear tight clothing".

And many have tried to change their homophobic policy. The Supreme Court have upheld their right to have such a policy. I would hope that if enough potential future members end up not joining because of their antiquated policies, then they will be forced to change or go under. I'm encouraged by how many moms on this board would not allow their kids to join.
I was saying that my DH has homosexuals in his family and yet was still in the Boy Scouts regardless of the "policy" of the head BS. And he was never talked to about homosexuality in BS, or any sexuality since that is not what BS even teaches. His parents were aware of things, but since it never came up in his chapter it wasn't a problem. I wouldn't hold my kids back because of what some believe. It isn't all the BS, certainly not the individual chapters, it's not something that is discussed and BS does have wonderful skills being taught.
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  #46  
September 13th, 2011, 09:19 AM
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Are all troop leaders private lives treated equal? Is there also a policy that hetero troop leaders are also not to mention any part of their private lives or have members of the troop or the BS leadership know they have a wife/girl friend? if the answer is no, then there really isn't any explanation that would make the BS don't ask/don't tell type policy okay.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
I was saying that my DH has homosexuals in his family and yet was still in the Boy Scouts regardless of the "policy" of the head BS. And he was never talked to about homosexuality in BS, or any sexuality since that is not what BS even teaches. His parents were aware of things, but since it never came up in his chapter it wasn't a problem. I wouldn't hold my kids back because of what some believe. It isn't all the BS, certainly not the individual chapters, it's not something that is discussed and BS does have wonderful skills being taught.
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  #47  
September 13th, 2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
I was saying that my DH has homosexuals in his family and yet was still in the Boy Scouts regardless of the "policy" of the head BS.
As I said above the boy scouts would not (that I know of) kick somebody out because they are related to or know a gay person. If they did, they would have almost no members. That's not the issue that I, and many others, have with the boy scouts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
And he was never talked to about homosexuality in BS, or any sexuality since that is not what BS even teaches.
I should hope that the boy scouts were not talking to kids about sexuality. The issues with the boy scouts are not that they are proselytizing anti-gay rhetoric, but that their policies do not allow openly gay people to be members or leaders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
I wouldn't hold my kids back because of what some believe. It isn't all the BS, certainly not the individual chapters, it's not something that is discussed and BS does have wonderful skills being taught.
That's your prerogative; but I choose not to support a group that openly and actively has discriminatory policies, regardless of the skills they can teach our children. I do see why some families that have a long standing relationship with the scouts would choose to continue with them; and maybe they can begin the change from within the organization; but as I have no such relationship, I choose to instead boycott the boy scouts because prior attempts at change from within have been unsuccessful.

I would hate to think one of my children had to stay in the closet or risk being kicked out of the Eagle scouts because of his sexual orientation. Yes, some of the local groups may have more of a 'turn a blind eye' or 'don't ask don't tell' policy; but the fact remains that the Boy Scouts of America would have all gay persons kicked out.
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  #48  
September 13th, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
Are all troop leaders private lives treated equal? Is there also a policy that hetero troop leaders are also not to mention any part of their private lives or have members of the troop or the BS leadership know they have a wife/girl friend? if the answer is no, then there really isn't any explanation that would make the BS don't ask/don't tell type policy okay.
I know the troop leaders of the nearest chapter, they don't care if people are gay. None of them are anti-gay or homophobic. So I'm saying I do not have a problem with my kids being in BS because I know the troops of the local chapter and I know they don't hold the same belief. Homosexuality isn't even something they discuss. The head BS doesn't speak for each troop member, they have their own thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredmom View Post
As I said above the boy scouts would not (that I know of) kick somebody out because they are related to or know a gay person. If they did, they would have almost no members. That's not the issue that I, and many others, have with the boy scouts.

I wasn't saying that they'd kick out my DH for having family members who are homosexual, that's not what I was getting to at all.


I should hope that the boy scouts were not talking to kids about sexuality. The issues with the boy scouts are not that they are proselytizing anti-gay rhetoric, but that their policies do not allow openly gay people to be members or leaders.

And I get that. I do have a problem with that, yes, because I believe gay people are just like any heterosexual person and etc. But local chapters don't always hold the same belief. I'm pretty sure our chapter had a gay troop leader at one point. He wasn't "out" yet, but is now and no longer involved with BS, but not because of that. If they're not talking to the kids about sexuality then I don't see why they couldn't be in BS and learn the other skills that are important.


That's your prerogative; but I choose not to support a group that openly and actively has discriminatory policies, regardless of the skills they can teach our children. I do see why some families that have a long standing relationship with the scouts would choose to continue with them; and maybe they can begin the change from within the organization; but as I have no such relationship, I choose to instead boycott the boy scouts because prior attempts at change from within have been unsuccessful.

I would hate to think one of my children had to stay in the closet or risk being kicked out of the Eagle scouts because of his sexual orientation. Yes, some of the local groups may have more of a 'turn a blind eye' or 'don't ask don't tell' policy; but the fact remains that the Boy Scouts of America would have all gay persons kicked out.
If one of my children were gay and in the BS they wouldn't be getting kicked out. I'd raise hell, and I doubt the troop leaders would kick him/them out anyways or even bring it up to the head BS.
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  #49  
September 13th, 2011, 01:01 PM
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You raising hell wouldn't make a bit of difference. The BSA are a Christian organization, they do not allow gays, atheists or agnostics. As a private organization, they have a right to choose who is and is not allowed to represent them as the organization that they are.

Supreme Court says Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders - CNN

That being said, my son(s) will still be in BSA because its an important familial thing for my husband who is a proud Eagle scout. He said in his troop, religion and sexual orientation were non-existent so that is the kind of troop we will be looking for. Neither of us support their policies on the LGBT community or religion but there are a lot of lessons and survival skills that can be taught. Being an eagle scout is a very prestigious thing in the world, I can only hope my son is interested in going that far in the organization.
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  #50  
September 13th, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
You raising hell wouldn't make a bit of difference. The BSA are a Christian organization, they do not allow gays, atheists or agnostics. As a private organization, they have a right to choose who is and is not allowed to represent them as the organization that they are.

Supreme Court says Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders - CNN

That being said, my son(s) will still be in BSA because its an important familial thing for my husband who is a proud Eagle scout. He said in his troop, religion and sexual orientation were non-existent so that is the kind of troop we will be looking for. Neither of us support their policies on the LGBT community or religion but there are a lot of lessons and survival skills that can be taught. Being an eagle scout is a very prestigious thing in the world, I can only hope my son is interested in going that far in the organization.
Yep, my son makes Tenderfoot next week. He has been in from the beginning in Cub Scouts and I have never heard anything about homosexuals. My husband is a leader and he has never mentioned anything being said about homosexuals.

Heck, I don't even think they pray but they do meet in the church

My daughter will be in the Girl Scouts and my youngest will be a Tiger Cub as soon as he can be admitted.

I am open to my kids doing about anything.
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  #51  
September 13th, 2011, 03:12 PM
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I would prefer that my children not participate in Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, not only because of the anti-homosexual policies of the organization, but also because I don't approve of many of their other 'hidden' values. In particular, I don't like how gendered the organizations are. I don't know about the rest of you, but when I participated in Girl Scouts as a child (I made it up to Brownie before quitting), it was pretty.....lame. Mostly what we did was sit around a church basement, bake brownies, make hair barrettes, and play "Mother May I?" I think we went camping once, but it was seriously cushy. As in, we stayed in log cabins and somebody else cooked us spaghetti. It seems like the Boy Scouts (which my brother was in, though he also quit early) were always doing WAY more fun things than we got to do. They actually got to 'rough it' a bit. I mean, why is it that all of the Girl Scouts ranks are named after flowers, and the Boy Scouts are named after wild animals? No subtlety to that message right there. Plus, the whole concept of starting out at one rank, then rising step by step through the ranks, seems to be instilling a very "military" ethic at a very young age. Not sure I'm a fan of that.

If I had my choice about it, I would much rather that my children participate in 4H. It teaches the same values and sense of self-reliance, but is much less gendered (imo). Boys and girls can both choose to participate equally in any of the events that they want (animal husbandry, quilt-making, whatever), and they compete on an equal footing. And the things that they learn are a lot more practical and relevant to the real-world that barrette-making ever was. (or knot-tying, for that matter).

That said, I don't think that I would ever forbid my children from participating in an activity, unless it wasn't in our financial power to pay for it. If either of my sons expressed an interest in participating in the Boy Scouts, I would use that as an opportunity to sit down with them and openly discuss the organization's policy regarding homosexuality (+ my and DH's feelings of disapproval towards that policy). Then, I would let my children make their own decision based on that information. I think they would learn more by going through that process of ethical-decision making (and probably resent me less) than they would if I simply issued an outright ban. Even if they made the 'wrong' decision and chose to join -- well, sometimes children make the wrong ethical decisions, and usually they experience remorse for it later. That's still a learning experience. Plus, they might even be able to do something to change the organization from the inside. So yes, even though I would prefer that they didn't join, ultimately I would leave the decision up to them and not me.

However, they will of course all be required to join their high school debate teams. That's non-negotiable.
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  #52  
September 13th, 2011, 03:51 PM
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Not all the girl scout age groups are named after flowers. It looks like only one

Membership levels of the Girl Scouts of the USA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Since 2008, Girl Scouts of the USA have had six age levels: Girl Scout Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior, and Ambassador
Even before 2008, when my girls did GS, the groups around here did mainly three divisions which were Daisy, Brownie, and Juniors.

Also a blurb on homosexuality from wiki
Girl Scouts of the USA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Girl Scouts of the USA stated in an October 1991 letter:[61]
As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference. However, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. has firm standards relating to the appropriate conduct of adult volunteers and staff. The Girl Scout organization does not condone or permit sexual displays of any sort by its members during Girl Scout activities, nor does it permit the advocacy or promotion of a personal lifestyle or sexual preference. These are private matters for girls and their families to address.
GSUSA upholds a "don't ask, don't evangelize" policy on sexuality.[62] The debate over this issue is split between those who feel that the policy should avoid and prevent discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, and those who question the inclusion of homosexuals.[63][64]
And on religion
Quote:
In early 1992, the Totem Girl Scout Council suggested changing the promise to make it possible for girls who did not believe in a monotheistic god to join. In November 1992, the parents of Nitzya Cuevas-Macias sued for their daughter to be permitted to participate even though she refused to promise to serve God.[65][66]
On October 23, 1993, the Girl Scouts of the USA voted 1,560-375[67] to permit individuals to substitute another word or phrase for "God" in their promise.[15]
"THAT, since the Girl Scout organization makes no attempt to interpret or define the word 'God' but encourages members to establish for themselves the nature of their spiritual beliefs, it is the policy of the Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. that individuals when making the Girl Scout Promise may substitute wording appropriate to their own spiritual beliefs for the word 'God'."
with the explanation that
"For some individuals, the word 'God', no matter how broadly interpreted, does not appropriately reflect their spiritual beliefs. Since the belief in a spiritual principle is fundamental to Girl Scouting, not the word used to define that belief, it is important that individuals have the opportunity to express that belief in wording meaningful to them. It is essential to maintain the spiritual foundation of Girl Scouting, yet be inclusive of the full range of spiritual beliefs. This [policy change] does not take the word 'God' out of the Girl Scout Promise. It gives those individuals who wish to do so the option to state their commitment to the spiritual concepts fundamental to the Movement with a word or words more appropriate to their own beliefs. For instance, an individual may say 'my faith' or 'Allah' or 'the Creator'."
Quote:
The official Girl Scout policy does not ban or require prayer.[73]
The Girl Scout organization does not endorse or promote any particular philosophy or religious belief. Our movement is secular and is founded on American democratic principles, one of which is freedom of religion. Although Girl Scouts has policies supporting religious diversity, there is no policy by Girl Scouts of the USA that prohibits or requires the saying or singing of a grace, blessing, or invocation before meals by Girl Scout members in a troop/group setting, in a resident or day camp, or at meetings, conferences, and other large events. The decision to say a grace, blessing, or invocation is made locally at the troop or group level, and should be sensitive to the spiritual beliefs of all participants.
When my daughters were in GS, they met at the local elem. school. I was not a huge fan of it as it seemed the emphasis was put on the fundraisers. A magazine drive and the cookie sales. My one son did a year of BS and they focused a lot on their popcorn sales. He was thrilled to earn his pocket knife and soon after lost interest. I think he took part in the soapbox derby but it seems like it was so long ago now, I can't remember.
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  #53  
September 13th, 2011, 04:01 PM
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I loved being a Guide. I was devastated when I advanced out of Guides and there wasn't a pathfinder league that I could attend. I had no way to get to the meeting since it wasn't held in town, so I had to stop going. I went to Scouts instead cause my boyfriend's parents picked me up for the meetings.

I learned so many things I'd never have learned at home. To this day a lot of what I learned has stayed useful like how to pack a bag with clothing, how to make a sleeping bag so that it's water resistant and is fully prepared to crawl into when you open it up. I also love the fact that I can make food packs before we go camping and we can eat baked potatoes and steak cooked right on the fire. LOL

Thankfully I'll be able to pass the knowledge on if my kids don't do scouting/guiding in the future.
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  #54  
September 13th, 2011, 04:20 PM
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Quantum - you'd be surprised how handy knot tying is. If my husband and I went head to head on who could survive in the wilderness for a week with no starting food source and no shelter - his boy scout experience will beat my 4-H experience every time. Boy Scouts teaches them how to survive. I can almost guarantee that in the situation of crisis where grocery stores are empty, power is gone and our normal life luxuries are non existent - our family would survive with no problem because of my husband's knowledge from the BS. We would probably be in the very small percentage of people who could survive for 5 - 10 years + in this country with all our normal lifestyle options being gone. Its about skills that really, you can learn no where else. They teach the lost art of self preservation and survival and that kind of knowledge is irreplaceable.
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  #55  
September 13th, 2011, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
Quantum - you'd be surprised how handy knot tying is. If my husband and I went head to head on who could survive in the wilderness for a week with no starting food source and no shelter - his boy scout experience will beat my 4-H experience every time. Boy Scouts teaches them how to survive. I can almost guarantee that in the situation of crisis where grocery stores are empty, power is gone and our normal life luxuries are non existent - our family would survive with no problem because of my husband's knowledge from the BS. We would probably be in the very small percentage of people who could survive for 5 - 10 years + in this country with all our normal lifestyle options being gone. Its about skills that really, you can learn no where else. They teach the lost art of self preservation and survival and that kind of knowledge is irreplaceable.
(1) That's not going to happen.
(2) They never taught us any of that stuff in the Girl Scouts -- that was my main point.
(3) Why not a program like Outward Bound? It teaches all of the same skills, and then places the child in a situation where he/she is actually forced to use them before 'graduating' from the program. Plus, there are none of the same homophobia issues to contend with.
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  #56  
September 13th, 2011, 05:03 PM
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I can't think of any extra-curriculars I'd "ban" but there are certainly some I'd prefer over others!
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  #57  
September 13th, 2011, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap View Post
(1) That's not going to happen.
(2) They never taught us any of that stuff in the Girl Scouts -- that was my main point.
(3) Why not a program like Outward Bound? It teaches all of the same skills, and then places the child in a situation where he/she is actually forced to use them before 'graduating' from the program. Plus, there are none of the same homophobia issues to contend with.
1) That is a very naive way to look at the world. In an instant the entire country could change and there would be a lot of people that would be screwed. I remember around 10 years ago when one of the country's big power outlets caught on fire and 8 states and parts of Canada were without power. We didn't have power for at least 3 days and by then, all the refrigerated food was spoiled and the grocery stores were out of most the essentials. It could have lasted longer than that. It does happen in places like tornado alley that get hit with tornadoes for months on end and things can't always be restored in a day or two. Imagine what would happen if a civil war broke out in this country or an enemy country starting bombing us - would you be prepared? I know we would be.
2) 4-H didn't teach me any of that stuff either. I plan on teaching my daughter(s) all the stuff that the boy scouts learn since there is currently no option equal to the BS for girls. Although the BS do accept girls ages 14 - 21 for some of their programs.
3) We don't have outward bound in this area so that isn't an option. My husband was forced to use his skills before he could earn his merit badges and once again, he never ran into a problem with sexuality in his entire Scout experience which started from the cub scouts and lasted until he left the program with his Eagle Scout status.
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  #58  
September 13th, 2011, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
You raising hell wouldn't make a bit of difference. The BSA are a Christian organization, they do not allow gays, atheists or agnostics. As a private organization, they have a right to choose who is and is not allowed to represent them as the organization that they are.
Exactly; raising hell won't get you any further than it's already been taken (the Supreme Court).
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  #59  
September 13th, 2011, 05:45 PM
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We were taught survival skills when I was in girl scouts, not namby pamby prissy stuff. Granted I dropped out of gs(was far more interested in 4-H) after a while and got the majority of my survival skills elsewhere, but they did teach them. No clue what they teach now. There aren't any troops anywhere near us that are accommodating(for boy scouts or girl scouts) The expenses were/are way over inflated and despite being told there is financial assistance, there is not, at least not here, I look into it every single year.
I'd prefer my kids not join any of the scout troops here partly because of that fact-financially it's a nightmare. At least with three kids anyway. That and not having reliable transportation are the only two reasons they aren't in scouts, as they've all shown interest in wanting to join. But then there's not a whole heck of a lot here they could join, or take part in, because of the cost. It's ridiculous.

Part of our schooling deals with survival skills. I want to make certain, if ever put in that sort of situation, my kids can and will fend for themselves. Hard as it may be to think about-it's important, imo, that ALL kids have some sort of survival skills taught to them. It's not like having that knowledge will hurt them later in life. I can recall far too many situations where my own survival skills have proven invaluable. Even ds(8) knows how to start a fire with wet wood, make shelter out of just about anything and navigate the woods should he ever get lost.
That's not to say I'm going to throw them out in the woods and make them fend for themselves, lol. But I think having the knowledge is a great thing and if a parent can't/won't teach their children, it's a great idea to find someone else who can/will. Of course self sufficiency needs to be taught too-that's another thing we work on too.
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  #60  
September 13th, 2011, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap View Post
(2) They never taught us any of that stuff in the Girl Scouts -- that was my main point.
(
They did in my troop. We spent a lot of time camping, really roughing it. I guess a lot depends on the troop leader but we did very little 'girly' stuff and learned a whole lot of useful things in my Girl Scout troop. I'd be thrilled if a future daughter of mine wanted to participate.

As for Boy Scouts, I remember my brother having a great time growing up in his troop. I think that a lot of his self-confidence comes from the experience he had in Boy Scouts. I think if my son wanted to participate we would discuss our (DH and I) stance on homosexuality and how it differs from the official Boy Scout position, but it would ultimately be his choice.

The only sport that I'd have real qualms about for a boy would be football. Too many of those kids get concussions, sometimes multiple, and that scares the crap out of me.

For a girl, I'd allow her to participate in gymnastics or figure skating if she was dead-set on it but I'd be watchful. So many of those girls end up with eating disorders and a terrible self-image, especially at the higher levels.
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Mary Elizabeth stillborn at 26 weeks
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