Log In Sign Up

Anti-Vax Parents Now Facing Their Kids' Removal From School


Forum: Heated Debates

Notices

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to boards@justmommies.com.

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Heated Debates LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #1  
September 22nd, 2011, 11:08 AM
rose198172's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,638
Anti-Vax Parents Now Facing Their Kids' Removal From School | The Stir

Quote:
Most took their kids to the doctors for shots. (Because the whooping cough vaccine is thought to wear off after a few years, children need boosters.) Those kids got to stay in school.

Not the kids whose parents opted out of the vaccinations, however. Those kids got yanked out of class and were forced to spend the day in the gym.
Thoughts?
__________________
Writer, Navy wife, autistic mom of two autistic kids (E is 6, C is 5).

Reply With Quote
  #2  
September 22nd, 2011, 11:38 AM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In my house :p
Posts: 1,288
Putting them all in the gym like that was stupid-and made no sense(unless there was prior notice that this WOULD be happening, on this date, but I don't see it listed there, so doubtful). Just not letting them attend school until the proper forms were sent in/filled out makes sense though. They could have handled the entire situation better.

As far as the schools here are concerned for those who don't vaccinate, or don't have proof of them, you have 30 days to either provide proof or your exemption papers. Right before the 30 days is up, they send a letter home and it has a specific date on it. If everything isn't in by that date, your child(ren) cannot attend school until it is.
I thought that was pretty typical. I only ran into the problem once, when I was trying to get ds' shot records and our exemption for CP. It didn't take the full 30 days or anything, but longer than I wanted. Had they not returned my CP exemption repeatedly it wouldn't have been an issue at all. (even though the girls had the exact same paper on file, lol)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
September 22nd, 2011, 11:42 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North
Posts: 7,824
Love how the blogger makes it sound like the students were manhandled. I'm reading the actual article right now. and some of the commenters bring up some good points. If there are exemptions, get them.
Unvaccinated Students Pulled Out Of Class - Inderkum High School - Sacramento - Natomas Unified School District - KTXL
Quote:
It is remarkable that neither the media, the schools, or the Califorina public health offices are informing parents that they can choose to OPT-OUT of the whooping cough vaccination for PHILOSOPHICAL or MEDICAL REASONS!
Quote:
What this article neglects to include is the fact that exemptions to this and other vaccines are available. All parents have to do to opt out is fill out an exemption form in the school office or mark the exemption box on the back of the official shot record. California offers all three available exemptions; religious, medical, and philosophical. Not including this information makes this article misleading that your child has to receive this vaccine, which is simply not the truth. A true case of incomplete journalism. For more information of vaccines, their risks, and exemption information visit: National Vaccine Information Center ? Vaccine Watch Dog
National Vaccine Information Center ? Vaccine Watch Dog
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immu...arentGuide.pdf
Quote:

Your child may be exempted from some or all immunizations by a doctor because of a medical condition.
Your child may be exempted by you because of your personal or religious beliefs. Ask your school or child
care provider for details.
__________________
Tammy, Mom to
Abby (19), Kacie (13), Chase (11), & Jacob (7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"...They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!" ~ Bobby ~ Supernatural
Reply With Quote
  #4  
September 22nd, 2011, 11:52 AM
rose198172's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,638
Neither the blog nor the article really talks about whether these kids had exemption forms or not. I was under the impression that if you have a child enrolled in school, you have to have either vax records or an exemption form to even attend in the first place.

What if these kids DID have exemption forms and this is just a scare tactic to get their parents to vaccinate? How would you all feel about that then? I know I would be livid.
__________________
Writer, Navy wife, autistic mom of two autistic kids (E is 6, C is 5).

Reply With Quote
  #5  
September 22nd, 2011, 11:59 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North
Posts: 7,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePiecesofOurPuzzle View Post
Neither the blog nor the article really talks about whether these kids had exemption forms or not. I was under the impression that if you have a child enrolled in school, you have to have either vax records or an exemption form to even attend in the first place.

What if these kids DID have exemption forms and this is just a scare tactic to get their parents to vaccinate? How would you all feel about that then? I know I would be livid.
If neither the article or blog does not state if the kids had exemption forms in place or not, I'm not going to debate this as if the school is in the wrong because we simply do not know. Not stating anything about the exemption is negligent on the part of both authors imo. The only reference is this one.
Quote:
An Inderkum parent who spoke with FOX40 expressed surprise that so many parents hadn’t made sure their kids were vaccinated. "We've known for the whole summer…I mean since the end of last year, “ said Kristyne Van Skike. “So we had all summer to work with our physician and get the paperwork, or make sure their vaccinations are up to date."
eta...the above leads me to believe that if its true the parents knew for 3 months(all summer) about the vax requirements, they had plenty of time to do their homework and find out about exemptions.
__________________
Tammy, Mom to
Abby (19), Kacie (13), Chase (11), & Jacob (7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"...They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!" ~ Bobby ~ Supernatural

Last edited by Tammyjh; September 22nd, 2011 at 12:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
September 22nd, 2011, 12:27 PM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
In Ontario, even if your child has an exemption form for not having vaccines, the school can and will still send your child home if there is an outbreak (such as measles) in the class or possibly even in the school (like another class). An exemption form is required to attend any daycare or school facility here as well, or your child will be required to be vaccinated otherwise.

ETA: IMO, the exemption form is an oxymoron, they still control your choice- ie; removing your child from school.

Last edited by babytoes; September 22nd, 2011 at 12:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
September 22nd, 2011, 01:10 PM
Repti.Mom's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 15,641
Same thing in our school, if there is an outbreak, children without shots will be sent home until they know they are clear of the disease. I assume that means until the dormant period is over if there is one. This happened to some children a couple years ago with whooping cough. If they parents DO vax, and they're just not compliant with turning in forms, I think the kids should be sent home as well, just like the unvaxed kids. This is IF there is an outbreak of something, not 'just in case'. I would think every state has something on their form that says you don't have to vax due to personal or religious views.
__________________







Reply With Quote
  #8  
September 22nd, 2011, 01:25 PM
HappyHippy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pavia, Italy
Posts: 5,959
So was there a whooping cough outbreak or something? Because if there wasn't and no signs of whooping cough being in the school then why do the unvaccinated kids need to be pulled out of class? That's a little dumb. If it was to grab the parents attentions, then they are basically saying nonvaxing parents are too stupid to get their kids vaxed, which is also dumb.

I'm a little annoyed with this.
1. I'm sick and tired of all parents who don't vaccinate being called "anti-vaxers". We aren't all against vaccines in that sense, some of us just have kids where the risks to the vax aren't worth it.

2. I'm sick and tired of other people trying to tell parents how to raise their kids like they know what is best for them. It is not against the law to not vaccinate your kids, so stop trying to punish those who don't. There are real legit reasons why someone wouldn't vaccinate their child.

3. While I understand why many parents want all kids to be vaccinated (which could never happen due to allergies, complications, side effects, etc), I don't think it is necessary to treat those who aren't as some diseased ridden freak. They dont' need to be pulled out of class like they're outcasts or in the wrong. If there is an outbreak then by all means send them home, but don't treat them like they are in the wrong for not being vaccinated.
__________________
Mama to G, L & twins F & M
Started off 2013 homebirthing suprise twins Fia Celesta & Maddalena Isabella
Reply With Quote
  #9  
September 22nd, 2011, 01:35 PM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North
Posts: 7,824
My solution is that if people don't want the govt. to tell them how to raise their children, it might be a good idea to stop voting for political figures who advocate for more govt. control.
__________________
Tammy, Mom to
Abby (19), Kacie (13), Chase (11), & Jacob (7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"...They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!" ~ Bobby ~ Supernatural
Reply With Quote
  #10  
September 22nd, 2011, 01:54 PM
Tofu Bacon's Avatar Enigma... or oxymoron?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Yawk
Posts: 123
My guess is that, since the TDaP is newly mandated, most of these families probably already have an exemption on file but didn't know they had to submit an additional exemption for this vax, since it's not listed on the general exemption form.
__________________
Mom to Bobby (7) Loni (4) and James (16 months)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
September 22nd, 2011, 05:06 PM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In my house :p
Posts: 1,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by babytoes View Post
In Ontario, even if your child has an exemption form for not having vaccines, the school can and will still send your child home if there is an outbreak (such as measles) in the class or possibly even in the school (like another class). An exemption form is required to attend any daycare or school facility here as well, or your child will be required to be vaccinated otherwise.

ETA: IMO, the exemption form is an oxymoron, they still control your choice- ie; removing your child from school.
Umm, in that case I'd WANT my child sent home. Isn't that a bit of a no brainer?
Not having a vaccination to something doesn't necessarily mean I want my children to get the disease instead.

There was a CP outbreak when dd1 was in kindergarten. They let me know as soon as they could. I had to pull her out of school because of our medical issues. They had pulled her, and a few other kids to the nurse's office until the parents could come get them. This seems like a reasonable act to me. Now sure they may have been some students whose parents wouldn't care and would simply leave them in the school. But for the rest of us, I'd HOPE my child would be sent home, or at least I'd be contacted about it, if something serious broke out, so I could best protect them

ETA: I should probably clarify/qualify this a bit. We have an exemption from CP-well had, when my kids were in school. This is because neither dd2 nor myself carry an immunity to varicella zoster. Getting the vaccine(sometimes even being around others who have recently gotten it, but this is very difficult to avoid) is as bad as actually getting CP. I have had it nine times, as an adult, she has had it four(and she's ten). So a CP outbreak in most schools, for most children, would likely not be an issue. But for us, it would, it would be a big issue. The same for others. I don't pretend to know why some don't vaccinate against it(or anything in some cases), we all have our reasons, and I don't judge. But personally, I'd be glad, and was glad, the school took measures to try and better protect my child and my family. I don't see it as a slight against us, or them removing my power as a parent, or controlling crap. I don't understand why it would be them controlling things.

CP for my kid=super bad, CP for me=super bad, CP breaks out at the school so my kid gets taken out temporarily=good. The same could probably be said about other diseases for other children, and other families. There isn't a one size fits all answer to it.
__________________

Last edited by Frackel; September 22nd, 2011 at 05:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
September 22nd, 2011, 08:51 PM
rose198172's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu Bacon View Post
My guess is that, since the TDaP is newly mandated, most of these families probably already have an exemption on file but didn't know they had to submit an additional exemption for this vax, since it's not listed on the general exemption form.
That's what I was thinking, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
So was there a whooping cough outbreak or something? Because if there wasn't and no signs of whooping cough being in the school then why do the unvaccinated kids need to be pulled out of class? That's a little dumb. If it was to grab the parents attentions, then they are basically saying nonvaxing parents are too stupid to get their kids vaxed, which is also dumb.

I'm a little annoyed with this.
1. I'm sick and tired of all parents who don't vaccinate being called "anti-vaxers". We aren't all against vaccines in that sense, some of us just have kids where the risks to the vax aren't worth it.

2. I'm sick and tired of other people trying to tell parents how to raise their kids like they know what is best for them. It is not against the law to not vaccinate your kids, so stop trying to punish those who don't. There are real legit reasons why someone wouldn't vaccinate their child.

3. While I understand why many parents want all kids to be vaccinated (which could never happen due to allergies, complications, side effects, etc), I don't think it is necessary to treat those who aren't as some diseased ridden freak. They dont' need to be pulled out of class like they're outcasts or in the wrong. If there is an outbreak then by all means send them home, but don't treat them like they are in the wrong for not being vaccinated.
I don't think there was an outbreak, which is why this is so bizarre. There's been no reports that I can see of an outbreak. I'm sure we would have heard about it.

And amen to being called anti-vaxers. I hate that term, because it's not that we are all against vaccinating 100% of the time. I'm pretty much a "if you wanna vax your kid, fine, but don't judge me for my choice" kind of person.
__________________
Writer, Navy wife, autistic mom of two autistic kids (E is 6, C is 5).

Reply With Quote
  #13  
September 22nd, 2011, 09:10 PM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In my house :p
Posts: 1,288
I don't call people who do, or don't, vaccinate their children anything, except parents, lol. I never understood why anyone did, to be honest. Not vaccinating has never been an indicator, to me, that the parent is necessarily against vaccinations(even if perhaps they are). People call me anti-vax because of my stance on the CP vaccination, our delayed schedule and such. Eh, whatever. I never put a whole lot of faith, or attention, into the labels people give others. I figure the less ruckus I make out of it, the better I look and the more like an idiot they do for making up silly labels Win-win for me.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
September 22nd, 2011, 09:41 PM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 26,548
Send a message via MSN to plan4fate
I ditto the anti-vaxers comments. Especially since a lot of parents who don't vaccinate aren't against the vaccines themsevles.

There are true anti vaxers out there (the ones who think we should do away with them for everyone and just deal with the illnesses) , and the two don't relate what so ever.


I'd like to know why the kids were pulled out. My opinion would different for each senario.

I will say, if the school gave out the info at the end of the year, and parents haven't complied with the requirements yet, then I do think the children should be sent home, regardless of whether there is an out break. Rules are rules, get the exemption forms, or get the vax's. Dallying isn't going to help anyone.
__________________
~TTC #1 together 2 years and counting ~


Awesome siggy made by Jaidynsmum

Me: Hashi's, PCOS, Insulin resistant, Multiple miscarriages
175mcg Synthyroid, 1500mg Metformin
Colposcopy = CIN1+CIN2 cells Polypectomy - August 21st
Him: MFI low count, low morphology, low motillity
Seeing MFI specialist/RE in 2015. Vitamins started August 2nd
Trying a few cycles of clomid and progesterone. FX this is all it takes.
Cycle 1: Clomid cd3-7 ~ bfn
Cycle 2: Clomid cd 3-7 ~ beta negative (< 3)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
September 22nd, 2011, 10:56 PM
tiredmom's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,987
I was just looking around and found a little more information.

This addresses the epidemic of 2010 and the new findings that the vaccine protects for less time than previously thought.
Did Poor Vaccine Response Contribute to California’s Whooping Cough Outbreak? | Wired Science| Wired.com

Quote:
Eleven infants died of whooping cough in California’s epidemic, which peaked in 2010 but has not yet ended. “Anything else that killed 11 infants would be a national crisis,” he said.

The further problem, Witt said, is that the lapse of immunity in the vaccinated children punched one more hole in the general “herd immunity” of the local population, which was already undermined by families who refused to vaccinate their children as well as by families who did not strongly oppose vaccines but who vaccinated their children late.

In California we have ‘personal belief exemptions’ [from mandatory vaccination] of 3 percent to 10 percent per county,” he said. “If you have 10 percent unvaccinated, and the vaccine efficacy is 85 percent, then you’re talking about only 75 percent” of the population at best who are protected, he said.
Quote:
Coincidentally, thanks to the timing of the ICAAC meeting, the Kaiser group made their presentation just as children in California are returning to school — and in many cases, being sent home again. As Nancy Shute reported today on NPR, this fall marks the first time that California and other states have required the age-12 pertussis booster for school attendance, in large part because of the epidemic last year.
And this article from last year during the peak of the epidemic:
How California state law helps whooping cough spread | California Watch

Quote:
Two quirks in California law run counter to the efforts of public health officials who are hoping to put a lid on the rapidly spreading whooping cough epidemic in the state.

California is one of 11 states that do not require children to get a booster when they enter middle school, which is when the shots usually given during childhood tend to wear off.
(that is now a requirement as of this year). And the second reason California may have such high rates:

Quote:
Some states require a letter explaining the basis decision to exempt a child from vaccines or a notarized form, according to a 2006 study published in the Journal of American Medical Association. Not so in the Golden State, according to the study:

For example, California offers a personal-belief exemption whereby the parent simply signs a pre-written statement on the school immunization form. This personal-belief exemption is available to anyone regardless of the nature of their beliefs (religious or philosophical) and it is easier to claim this exemption than to complete the school immunization form that requires a health care clinician to obtain the child's medical record and transcribe the dates of vaccine administration.
The report concluded that states with the easiest exemption processes see 90 percent more whooping cough cases than other states.


I personally think what the school did was fine. It's not as if they were forcing everyone to become vaccinated or kicked out of school. They just had to have the kids either vaccinated for pertussis OR have the (very easy to fill out) exemption on file. It's a mandate from the state. And, as the article Tammy posted points out, the parents have known since the end of the year that they needed to have the vaccination or exemption on file within 30 days of the start of school.

ETA: My statement that what they "did was fine" is based on the assumption that there were a series of reminder notifications that went out to parents who were delinquent during this time. If they didn't send out any reminders and just pulled the kids, then I think they should have handled it better.
__________________
I’m Sarah (39), wife to Chris (40), mom to three boys (age 0, 3 and 5)

Last edited by tiredmom; September 22nd, 2011 at 11:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
September 23rd, 2011, 01:29 AM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In my house :p
Posts: 1,288
I think they should have just sent them home. Anyone who couldn't be sent home(no parent, no way for parent to get them, etc..) could have been then kept in an area until the end of the school day. It doesn't sound like they even attempted to send them home though.

That's what they do here, or did, when it came to something like that. But as far as exemptions go, even if they DIDN'T have all summer to either get the vaccine or get their exemptions in, the school did allow the first 30 days. That is AMPLE time to A-get your kid vaccinated, B-get your exemption form(s) turned in if your child isn't/won't be vaccinated. It's not like the schools don't/didn't provide paperwork at the beginning of the year with this info on it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
September 23rd, 2011, 07:47 AM
HappyHippy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pavia, Italy
Posts: 5,959
Anyone can be a carrier of an illness or a disease. Just because a person is vaccinated doesn't mean they won't carry the illness/disease and pass it on to a baby, elderly or non-vaxed person. I think the attitude toward those who don't vaccinate is shocking. I see it all the time online and even in real life now, where people automatically act like the only person who can carry and pass along something is someone who isn't vaccinated. Therefor everytime a non-vaxed person (becasuse they are too young, or old, or compromised) dies or gets ill from something they always point fingers at the non-vaxers. I see that happening in this case where they are blaming non-vaxers for things that haven't even happened yet (at may not at all). I feel as if parents are not allowed to parent anymore. We are being told what to do. Just a little form? Sure, but parents shouldn't have to fill it out in the first place. We should reserve the right to make medical choices for our own children, especially if it could mean a severe reaction or worse. If people who vaccinate are so scared of getting the illness/disease they vaccinate against then maybe they should homeschool (I'm being sarcastic with that one, since I always hear that non-vaxers should have to homeshool).

I get whooping cough almost yearly, and have been getting it since I was around 12 years old. I'm vaccinated against it and have had a booster, yet I still get it.
__________________
Mama to G, L & twins F & M
Started off 2013 homebirthing suprise twins Fia Celesta & Maddalena Isabella
Reply With Quote
  #18  
September 23rd, 2011, 08:13 AM
Repti.Mom's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 15,641
The chicken pox thing is interesting because my daughter had been getting the shots on time, and then got shingles when she was about 2 or 3. I'm not sure if there would be an outbreak that she wouldn't have some sort of reaction, whether it be chicken pox or shingles again.

As for the article, no they didn't say anything about an outbreak. The only outbreak was people forgetting forms!
__________________







Reply With Quote
  #19  
September 23rd, 2011, 08:37 AM
Tofu Bacon's Avatar Enigma... or oxymoron?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Yawk
Posts: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
Anyone can be a carrier of an illness or a disease. Just because a person is vaccinated doesn't mean they won't carry the illness/disease and pass it on to a baby, elderly or non-vaxed person.
But vaccines do significantly reduce carriage and transmission in vaccinees, some more effectively than others. Vaccines are not 100% effective, but the fact is those who are immune (ie. less susceptible) are much less likely to transmit VPDs than those who are not (ie. more susceptible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
We are being told what to do. Just a little form? Sure, but parents shouldn't have to fill it out in the first place. We should reserve the right to make medical choices for our own children, especially if it could mean a severe reaction or worse.
Parents are not being stripped of choices; they are being held accountable to abide by the public health laws when they are putting their children in public school: vaccinate or submit your exemption. Period.
__________________
Mom to Bobby (7) Loni (4) and James (16 months)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
September 23rd, 2011, 09:15 AM
tiredmom's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post
Anyone can be a carrier of an illness or a disease. Just because a person is vaccinated doesn't mean they won't carry the illness/disease and pass it on to a baby, elderly or non-vaxed person. I think the attitude toward those who don't vaccinate is shocking. I see it all the time online and even in real life now, where people automatically act like the only person who can carry and pass along something is someone who isn't vaccinated. Therefor everytime a non-vaxed person (becasuse they are too young, or old, or compromised) dies or gets ill from something they always point fingers at the non-vaxers. I see that happening in this case where they are blaming non-vaxers for things that haven't even happened yet (at may not at all). I feel as if parents are not allowed to parent anymore. We are being told what to do. Just a little form? Sure, but parents shouldn't have to fill it out in the first place. We should reserve the right to make medical choices for our own children, especially if it could mean a severe reaction or worse. If people who vaccinate are so scared of getting the illness/disease they vaccinate against then maybe they should homeschool (I'm being sarcastic with that one, since I always hear that non-vaxers should have to homeshool).
I wonder how the parents of the 11 infants who died of whooping cough in California last year would feel about hearing that it hasn't happened yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaBee View Post

I get whooping cough almost yearly, and have been getting it since I was around 12 years old. I'm vaccinated against it and have had a booster, yet I still get it.
Really? You've been getting yearly whooping cough since age 12? Is this actually proven by culture and PCR?
__________________
I’m Sarah (39), wife to Chris (40), mom to three boys (age 0, 3 and 5)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:40 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0