[K.A.T]

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

I'm not talking about a private practice. I'm talking about a clinic/hospital that is not privatly owned by that Doctor. We do not live in a city or a big town, we live in a town of 1,000 people. We do not have all these options other people have. Dh can't quit his job nor can we move since DH is on contract. We cannot do those things until his contract is up. And even if we got private insurance, which would be extremely expensive for us (the insurance we get through his career is already a lot and private would be more, we've looked into it) we would still only have the option of 1 Pediatrician because that is all there is here in my area. I'd have to travel some distance to another Pediatrician. While we do have GPs, they normally won't work with kids like ds1 who have ADHD, SPD (mildly) and have had a history of seizures. It's slim pickins here, which is why it angers me to think that Doctors should be allowed to turn my kids away. We have a privatly run office here, he works out of his home, and in those instances where the Doctor owns the clinic then I don't care. But that is not what I'm talking about.

If Doctors started refusing care then the only choices I would have is either not taking my kids to the Doctor or driving hours away to go to well visits (which I do believe are important regardless if you vaccinate or not).

Then why are you debating so hard over something that no one here is debating about. Every post that I've read has said private. Not a single poster has said they feel this way for all settings. If they have then please show me.

Originally Posted by mommabirdof4

Yes, I think drs have the right to refuse and I am a non-vax parent....I knew going into it that some drs would not take my kids...that just comes along with making that choice. I chose to travel about 30-35 minutes to go to a dr who supports parental choice on all parenting choices...BFing,FFing, vax, cio etc.

Also I find some of the argument funny in light of the BFing vs. FFing thread!

I have to agree there. I was just thinking that.

[HappyHippy]

The OP said nothing about private practice :/ And this is actually a real debate that is going on in hospitals and clinics, and it really puts moms like me in a tough spot.

[Tammyjh]

We only have two pediatric neurologists in the state where I live so dd#2's neuro is an hours drive from us. As my older daughter is now 18, she can see a regular neuro through our local hospital. For my girls, the seizures were not vax related. My oldest was born with a seizure disorder due to a birth defect. My younger dd was 11 when she had her first grand mal. CAT & MRI were normal although the EEG did show a few abnormal waves. No one knows what the cause but the theory is that some kids will have seizures due to hormonal changes when they hit puberty. Whatever the cause, seizures are scary and I hope your son is doing better and that they are under control at this time.

Eta....if you feel you are being lied to and not getting the right information, I would suggest trying to find some information from what you would consider a reputable source. I know your son had febrile seizures but having more than one lasting longer than 15 minutes is very concerning(unless that's considered normal for febrile seizures?). I know that with my daughter, if she has one that lasts longer than 5 minutes, we are to call 911 ASAP and administer a sedative that her neuro prescribed. But her seizures are grand mal(or tonic clonic) and I do know that different types of seizures have different dr. orders.

[K.A.T]

Jenn these debates get to personal for you. You have a hard time seeing outside of your own world and that's not good for debating. Maybe you should ignore debates like this if you're going to get emotionally vested in them. Just a thought to ponder.

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

The OP said nothing about private practice :/ And this is actually a real debate that is going on in hospitals and clinics, and it really puts moms like me in a tough spot.

Yes, the OP did not but the posters have. So it's kinda of like you're getting your knickers in a bunch unnecessarily.

[Poncho06]

Should all OBGYN's be required to perform elective abortions regardless of their belief system? What if the town only had one or two OBGYN's? You can't force a physician to practice outside of their interpretations of available information regardless of if they came to a different conclusion as you.

As far as hospital run clinics go your issue should be with the hospital that runs and therefore sets policy for the business not the individual doctor.

[HappyHippy]

My knickers are not in a bunch. Yes the debate is personal, many of them are. Even if I vaccinated my children I would still think all children should have the right to proper medical care, as I think that should be a human right, and I don't think people should have to fight for it or drive hours away just to see a Doctor. I can seen outside my own world, I'm not sure why you think I can't.

I don't view the abortion debate as the same as not all OBGYNs are trained in them anyways.

ETA: I find it ridiculous that other mother's think some children should be turned away. I find it ridiculous that other's can't think outside of their own world and realise that it's really hard to have access to many Doctors in certain parts of the country/world. That other people can just quit their jobs or move like it's that easy peasy. I don't normally debate something I'm not passionate about, and that is what helps make a debate heated. Otherwise we'd just say we agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by GSLynn

Kimberly- Non vaccinated children are not going to affect any vaccinated child as a general rule. Non vaccinated kids if sick can get other non vaccinated kids sick, but honestly, anyone can get sick any time and so if you vaccinate your own child, you have that protection that maybe a non vaccinated child has, but you can't blame Johnny-joe's mom for her son getting YOUR child sick simply because he was not vaccinated.

I know that. I'm not stupid. However my child can't get all the vaccines she should have because of her medical condition. She would be at risk from VPD from unvaccinated children should they become infected. The more children who are unvaccinated the higher her risks are too. She's that child who can get very seriously sick or even be killed by many of these VPD, even ones other see as no big deal (like measles or CP) sure for a normal healthy child their risks are low, but for children like mine who have no protection it can kill them. She nearly died 3 times in her first year of life from the flu I hate to think what something like measles could do to her.

[K.A.T]

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

My knickers are not in a bunch. Yes the debate is personal, many of them are. Even if I vaccinated my children I would still think all children should have the right to proper medical care, as I think that should be a human right, and I don't think people should have to fight for it or drive hours away just to see a Doctor. I can seen outside my own world, I'm not sure why you think I can't.

I don't view the abortion debate as the same as not all OBGYNs are trained in them anyways.

ETA: I find it ridiculous that other mother's think some children should be turned away. I find it ridiculous that other's can't think outside of their own world and realise that it's really hard to have access to many Doctors in certain parts of the country/world. That other people can just quit their jobs or move like it's that easy peasy. I don't normally debate something I'm not passionate about, and that is what helps make a debate heated. Otherwise we'd just say we agree to disagree.

Just like other moms find it ridiculous that you feel that no one should ever have to educate themselves and solely depend on the education and words of "professionals." We can and do see outside of our world, that's why we don't want to force the world to bend to our logic.

Not all nurses have been trained to assist, but yet there are big hospitals that do force nurses to assist, even if it is against their belief system. Not all peds are trained to treat certain medical conditions, case in point like your son (which I'm sorry he deals with), that's why there are specialist that can treat those conditions. Yet, you expect all peds to see all kids no matter what. The logic just doesn't fit.

[HappyHippy]

Originally Posted by K.A.T

Just like other moms find it ridiculous that you feel that no one should ever have to educate themselves and solely depend on the education and words of "professionals." We can and do see outside of our world, that's why we don't want to force the world to bend to our logic.

Not all nurses have been trained to assist, but yet there are big hospitals that do force nurses to assist, even if it is against their belief system. Not all peds are trained to treat certain medical conditions, case in point like your son (which I'm sorry he deals with), that's why there are specialist that can treat those conditions. Yet, you expect all peds to see all kids no matter what. The logic just doesn't fit.

Except none of that is true about me. I said in the BF/FF debate that I think women should educate themselves on their feeding choices, and that it was also good to have a professional help them if they need/want it because many information in the internet is incorrect. I said I don't think women should solely have to rely on just the information they come up with. Not that they should solely rely on professionals to give them all the info they need/want.

Nor do I think, or have ever said, that all nurses or Doctors should assist/see all patients. What I said was all kids, and people for that matter, should be allowed to recieve proper medical care. I'm not going to go to a Doctor who cannot help me with a certain need of mine. I wouldn't go to an oncologist for pregnancy, and I wouldn't go to a OBGYN for cancer. I expect a Pediatrician to be able to do well visit care. I take my son to a specialist, well I take both of them there eventhough only one of them need it, because the Pediatrician specialises in kids like my ds1 and also knows how to do well visits and so ds2 goes there too. Is it really so hard to ask for a Pediatrician who does basic care to take on kids who need basic care? I am still waiting for the answer to this question, what's the big deal with a Pediatrician taking on kids who are not-vaccianted? (for basic well visits)

But a doctor choosing not to have patients in their practice doesn't exclude them from getting medical care. It only excludes them from that practice. So your argument doesn't fit.

[K.A.T]

Again, if the doctor is in a private practice, not a publicly funded clinic or hospital, they should be able to refuse to treat a child who is not being vax'd because they don't agree with it. As it has already been stated, why would a person want to see a doctor who doesn't agree with their own medical ideals? It's not a good fit for either the doctor nor the patient. Would you really want to take your sick child to a doc who is pro vax, while you're not, then probably get judgmental treatment and possibly a lecture on why you should be vax'ng? Wouldn't you rather avoid that if possible? Lets face it doctor are humans too and they're not always going to be able to separate their personal beliefs from their professional ones.

Furthermore, if your child was truly that sick, not sniffles here but seriously high fever sick and maybe more, it's doubtful the doctor would turn away the child. Also, that's what emergency rooms are for. Emergency sicknesses and injuries.

[HappyHippy]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

But a doctor choosing not to have patients in their practice doesn't exclude them from getting medical care. It only excludes them from that practice. So your argument doesn't fit.

But it does to those of us who are rural and don't have any other options. We would still have the ER of course, but they don't do well visits. And they get mad if you bring in a child who isn't *that* sick.

Originally Posted by K.A.T

Again, if the doctor is in a private practice, not a publicly funded clinic or hospital, they should be able to refuse to treat a child who is not being vax'd because they don't agree with it. As it has already been stated, why would a person want to see a doctor who doesn't agree with their own medical ideals? It's not a good fit for either the doctor nor the patient. Would you really want to take your sick child to a doc who is pro vax, while you're not, then probably get judgmental treatment and possibly a lecture on why you should be vax'ng? Wouldn't you rather avoid that if possible? Lets face it doctor are humans too and they're not always going to be able to separate their personal beliefs from their professional ones.

Furthermore, if your child was truly that sick, not sniffles here but seriously high fever sick and maybe more, it's doubtful the doctor would turn away the child. Also, that's what emergency rooms are for. Emergency sicknesses and injuries.

Yes I would take my child to a Doctor who doesn't agree with my choice to not vaccinate, yes I would listen to their lecture on how horrible a parent I was for not vaccinating. If it means my child gets to see a Doctor then I would put up with all that. My child's health comes before my comfort.

I just want my children to get the care they need and deserve and have a right to. I don't care if the Doctor doesn't like me or think I'm a horrible parent or pity's my kids. I've been to Doctors who felt that way and made it known. I don't care as long as my kids get the care.

[K.A.T]

Well that's you then. Not all feel that way. They would rather see someone who agrees with them. I'm sure most of us would put up with crap if our kids were truly that sick. But not many would want to sit through a lecture doing a well visit.

[HappyHippy]

Well visits normally last 15-30 minutes here. I'd put up with it if it ment my kids got seen and everything. If I lived in a different area where I had ooldes of options I might have a different view on if I would sit through it or not. But I don't. I have 1 option currently and he didnt' like me or wanted to lecture me I'd take it to get the care for my kids. I know that I am probably an exception to the rule. I knew going into the decision to not vaccinate I was probably going to have to sit through my fair share of lectures.

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

I find it ridiculous that other's can't think outside of their own world .

I find this very ammusing considering some of the things posted in the BFing vs. FFing thread.

Have you looked into a general practitioner then? you don't need a Pedi for well visits. Heck people here don't have pedi's unless they have other medical issues. Those without doctors have nurse practitioner. There are always options.

I also like in a rural are. Many many people here don't have a doctor at all. Walk in clinics take them. Those who have doctors use them for well visits, not pedi's. We're one of the luck families who have a doctor. Had our doctor not agreed with my parenting choices I would choose to go without.

My husband has a different doctor. He is completely opposite my beliefs (prescriptions for everything, pro-BF, and other things) I choose not to go with him when he offered to take us. I went without a doctor for myself and DD#1 for months before I found out current doctor.

[GSLynn]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

I know that. I'm not stupid. However my child can't get all the vaccines she should have because of her medical condition. She would be at risk from VPD from unvaccinated children should they become infected. The more children who are unvaccinated the higher her risks are too. She's that child who can get very seriously sick or even be killed by many of these VPD, even ones other see as no big deal (like measles or CP) sure for a normal healthy child their risks are low, but for children like mine who have no protection it can kill them. She nearly died 3 times in her first year of life from the flu I hate to think what something like measles could do to her.

OK, I SO DID NOT call you stupid. I just thought the way that your post was worded, you weren't abreast on all of that. It doesn't make one stupid. Medical stuff gets complicated.

[GSLynn]

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

But it does to those of us who are rural and don't have any other options. We would still have the ER of course, but they don't do well visits. And they get mad if you bring in a child who isn't *that* sick.



Yes I would take my child to a Doctor who doesn't agree with my choice to not vaccinate, yes I would listen to their lecture on how horrible a parent I was for not vaccinating. If it means my child gets to see a Doctor then I would put up with all that. My child's health comes before my comfort.

I just want my children to get the care they need and deserve and have a right to. I don't care if the Doctor doesn't like me or think I'm a horrible parent or pity's my kids. I've been to Doctors who felt that way and made it known. I don't care as long as my kids get the care.

Kids who are going to WELL visits do not generally get excluded just because of living in a rural area by the doctor. That's a parent's choice to not use a doctor due to location. There are many, MANY doctors in the US and even I know that may parents drive HOURS for good care when they don't have any close to them. Emergencies and well visits are apples and oranges. My BFF's child has a few health issues and for his well visits (which are once per week) she drives from C/S, CO to Denver which is about 1 1/2 hrs away from her. Is it worth it to her? Yes, is it FUN for her? no way. She hates driving up there but it's a necessary evil for the care she requires for this child. She wouldn't pick anyone else close to her because she didn't feel that they provided what her child needed even though they were fine doctors. And if YOU personally are getting a doctor's attitude, only YOU can choose someone else.

You plan well visits. As far as sick visits, again if your child is that sick, make the trip. I know I would and most everyone else I know would as well. Sure, it's inconvenient, but if you feel your child needs care, you get it.

If your child is super horribly sick, then the ER or after hours (if avail in the hospital) can help.

Mind you, this is only provided you have insurance. Obviously if someone simply cannot afford healthcare, I can't offer any options for them.

Originally Posted by HappyHippy

My knickers are not in a bunch. Yes the debate is personal, many of them are. Even if I vaccinated my children I would still think all children should have the right to proper medical care, as I think that should be a human right, and I don't think people should have to fight for it or drive hours away just to see a Doctor. I can seen outside my own world, I'm not sure why you think I can't.

I don't view the abortion debate as the same as not all OBGYNs are trained in them anyways.

ETA: I find it ridiculous that other mother's think some children should be turned away. I find it ridiculous that other's can't think outside of their own world and realise that it's really hard to have access to many Doctors in certain parts of the country/world. That other people can just quit their jobs or move like it's that easy peasy. I don't normally debate something I'm not passionate about, and that is what helps make a debate heated. Otherwise we'd just say we agree to disagree.

All OBGYNs know how to do D&C's since those are often done after incomplete miscarriages. I don't know why you think OBGYNs aren't "train in" that certain area because it's pertinent even to the ones who choose not to do elective abortions.

I agree with everyone else who says it's the doctor's choice. Doctors should not be forced to provide care for people they think are "risks." Doctors discharge patients from their care for non compliance all the time. People who don't take their RX'd meds the right way are an example of that. From the doctor's perspective, a patient that doesn't bother to follow medical advice can be seen as a liability.
I don't even take my kids to a pediatrician and we don't do well visits. Our whole family sees the same doctor/nurse practitioner clinic. They don't even do kids' vaccinations and not only have they not pushed me to take my kids to a pedi to get them, they've told me NOT to go to the health department because then that means the government is keeping tabs of whether or not my kids are vaxed.
And never have my kids been turned down for care because of not being vaxed. Last December Ivy had to go to the ER for breathing treatments and during the triage they asked if she was up to date on her vaxes and I said no. That was it. No lecture, no threat of refusal of treatment, they didn't even ask WHY.
The doctor in the OP was way out of line for calling the mother a lunatic, and I've been known to stand up and be very blunt to doctors and nurses that were rude to me. But in a non emergency situation I think a doctor has every right to refuse treatment to patients who aren't going to follow medical advice. That's just something that those of us who choose not to vaccinate have to be prepared to deal with.

Originally Posted by GSLynn

OK, I SO DID NOT call you stupid. I just thought the way that your post was worded, you weren't abreast on all of that. It doesn't make one stupid. Medical stuff gets complicated.

I know, but believe me I am acutely aware of all the risks associated with my child not being able to be vaccinated, what happens when the rates of unvaccinated goes up, and what can happen should my child get a VPD that so many seem to think are "no big deal"

Its a frightening prospect believe me. Its a fine line because I know and accept a parents right to make that choice. I respect parent who choose not to vaccinate (IF they research and are not just not doing it out of fear of something like autism)

I also know though the dangers inherent when vaccination levels drop. Especially for children like mine who just don't have the immune system to protect them and have no means of protection because they can't have the vaccines.