[foxfire_ga79]

I'm going to briefly rationalize at least part of the cause of American greed. We didn't start off this way.
My grandfather was a child in the depression, and he actually experienced true hunger. I don't think they "starved" and I haven't been told that any of his siblings died, but they did live with constant hunger.
As long as my mother can recall, and she's the oldest child, Pops has been obsessed with food. He eats a lot (though he's actually not fat) and he wants everybody else to eat a lot. He refuses to throw away food. He will eat something out of the fridge the day before it should be thrown away even if he's not hungry at that moment, just so it won't have been wasted.
I feel that that generation has had a huge affect on the rest of us. He wasn't the only hungry child to survive the depression and surely he's not the only adult that became so relieved to have food that he went overboard once he finally had enough.
And the depression era people aren't the only cause. Many immigrants came to this country, from wherever they had once called home, with nothing. They got here as broke as a person could be, and once they achieved what was their goal they did not want to let it go. They passed this along to their kids. And I'm not talking hundreds of years ago. Now, American born kids have been raised with their parents indulging them, the parents knew what it was like to go without and are determined their children will never know that feeling. Now the kids are adults and have been used to a life of plenty, or at the very least, satisfaction, and don't really know any other way. We've come into generations now that don't know what it's like to want for necessities. My "wants" include new camera lenses and it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if I could have another new horse, whereas my grandparents just wanted food. The generations that intended to protect their children actually pampered them a little too much.
But I think this is something that's still in the back of American's minds. The notion that as long as they can have what they want, they're safe. If I can afford a new camera lens, then I can afford food, which means I'm safe. I think it's a security measure.
Of course there are jerks who are just plain greedy, but I think what's called "American Greed" is unintentional. I don't think the average Joe Blow sets out to be a pig.
Wow, I thought I said I was going to be brief. Sorry for the hijack! lol

And yes, Jillian, Jesus did teach us to be generous. To help others and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. To give cheerfully and not begrudgingly. I really wish Christians as a whole were doing better about that right now. I mean, I'm glad we're not setting people on fire anymore, but we're still not living up to our true goals, and that disappoints me. *Sigh*
*Hops off soapbox*

Continue the original topic. I didn't mean to derail, I just thought an explanation might help people understand how our greed began. We didn't start off as bad people.

[plan4fate]

Something just got me thinking... A Walmart employee told me that if you purchase the wrong product for consumption, no matter what it is, when you return the old one, they throw it out. Yes, even a can of peas, goes in the garbage. I watched it happen tonight with an entire bag of food, the lady in front of me was disgusted and swore not only would she never send her husband shopping again, but she'd be looking for a store that didn't do this

My husband decided if we buy the wrong product, we'll find someone who can use it before we return it. Usually it's only a couple of bucks, we're doing alright for money. Course I've also seen him slip a $20 to a woman who was sorting through her order because she was $15 short for an order of groceries because her stamp weren't stretching (she was mumbling to herself about it)




I can only imagine the families who could use that food. Have things been so bad here in the US with food returns being dangerous that they have to throw them out? Walmart would throw it out even if you hadn't left the store (I asked) as soon as you pay for it, they have to throw it out.

We threw out perishables in Canada, things that would be affected by by being handled and had the temperature change... but a can of peas? a box of cereal?




*we found this out when we were returning two unused bottles of mineral oil that DH decided he wasn't going to use. She marked off the upc and I asked why... and she explained. I then followed up another day with the manager, who explained company policy. I was so sad.

Alicia you work for Target right? Do they do this too?

[BittyBugsMama]

Yes, it happens with practically any perishable item purchased. If there is anything purchased that can be tampered with, its automatically destroyed - we don't even have an option to defect it out. Candy, refrigerated and frozen goods, cereal, chips, juice, formula, etc. We also do the same with anything left in carts, on shelves, etc. Even if you walk to the coolers, put milk in your cart, walk immediately to the cashier and decide you don't want it - the milk gets thrown out. Also happens with a great deal of health and beauty items. If you buy it and you don't want it, it gets destroyed. It makes me seriously crazy. In one night at guest service, I'd say I throw out an average of about $200 of food. Some nights more, some nights less but overall, I'd say its about $200. I wish people would be more conscious of store policies and decide what they want to buy before they buy them. I have never taken something out of the freezers or coolers and not purchased it since I learned of the policy. If I buy food, it gets consumed - period.

[plan4fate]

Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama

Yes, it happens with practically any perishable item purchased. If there is anything purchased that can be tampered with, its automatically destroyed - we don't even have an option to defect it out. Candy, refrigerated and frozen goods, cereal, chips, juice, formula, etc. We also do the same with anything left in carts, on shelves, etc. Even if you walk to the coolers, put milk in your cart, walk immediately to the cashier and decide you don't want it - the milk gets thrown out. Also happens with a great deal of health and beauty items. If you buy it and you don't want it, it gets destroyed. It makes me seriously crazy. In one night at guest service, I'd say I throw out an average of about $200 of food. Some nights more, some nights less but overall, I'd say its about $200. I wish people would be more conscious of store policies and decide what they want to buy before they buy them. I have never taken something out of the freezers or coolers and not purchased it since I learned of the policy. If I buy food, it gets consumed - period.

I can see things that can spoil, or be tampered with... but chips? Canned food? All that stuff went back when I worked for a grocery store. Walmart will sell me a box of granola bars that's been kicked around on the floor a few times, but can't put a can of peas back on the shelf....

We didn't know until they'd finished the refund. The manager couldn't even show me it as a public policy, just in the employee manual. Not that I'd know where to donate mineral oil anyway. But I'll be more careful when buying food items in the future... So wasteful to throw out a non perishable item because it was returned.


eta: thanks for replying

[Frackel]

I find it sad that children, in a country like ours, with so much more than we truly need, have to go hungry at all. Citizens, or not.
It's a very tough situation, though. One I am not certain we will ever make better. Some things, many things even, have changed. But there are STILL many suffering in this country.

I do know what it's like to go hungry, truly hungry. I spent a portion of my very young childhood living in a car, with very little, until a friend of my mother actually realized we were doing so, and gave us a home. No one wanted to help us before then. I remember my mom trying. I remember spending hours inside the welfare office building, not getting help, but at least being happy to not be outside. We were running from a bad situation no one wanted to help us with. No agencies would touch the case with a ten foot pole, restraining orders were filed, but "we're sorry that's all we can do, until he touches you again", was what she got. There was no money to help families like ours back then, and there is apparently even less now. I find that sad, appalling, disgusting...sigh, you name it. This country, overall, has grown exponentially, including financially, and yet we still cannot provide the basics for people within our own borders. It's beyond sad.

I don't think the child should be denied food, simply because the parents couldn't see any other way. I find it sad they felt they had to come here illegally, just to provide a life for either themselves or their child(ren). Yet in the same breath, I also find it commendable. What parent wouldn't do whatever they could, to provide for their child, even the very basics? I can bet when push comes to shove, despite what we might think we'd do, we would all go to great lengths. I remember my mom never eating, giving us her clothes, staying up all night and watching over us. I remember my mom selling off what little we had, to put gas in the car, trying to find friends that would let us use their shower, or help us find a meal. I remember her getting sick, and taking care of us instead. I remember her working so hard, even once we had a home, to the point that we rarely saw her for a while, just so we could keep that home(even though we were not at risk of losing it, we were safe). I remember her doing so very much for us, including some things that others would likely look down on her for doing, just to keep us alive. It may not have lasted for years and years(as in, over ten years, like it does with many families today), but I remember it very well. Enough that it had an impact on me, and how I feel about such things, even still today.
I thank my lucky stars I have never had to go to any of those lengths for my children. But I know, if I had to, I would, without a second thought. I've seen it, I've lived it and I don't think I would have the understanding I do, unless I had. I know, if faced with those decisions still today, if the same scenario were to play out and there was no one to help(or who would help I should say), my mom would make the same decisions she did all those years ago, and I would do the same. I'm **** proud of her that she did, too. We are, and have always been citizens. So that wasn't even applicable to us. There still wasn't help. Not where we lived. Not everyone has the same opportunities as people like to think. It's sad that going somewhere else, where you'll likely be shunned, called a criminal, treated poorly and barely make it, is a dream life compared to where you're coming from. I don't think that's a perspective people think about all too often.
There is just no excuse in this country for things to be the way they are, for so many. We have the resources to help so many outside of our own country, yet we have people within our walls suffering daily. That's mind boggling. Not because we shouldn't help others. But because there is NO reason for the situations to be even remotely like they were, years and years ago. NO reason.

Hot topic, I probably shouldn't have responded to. It touches nerves. The core of the problem isn't that the child's parents are illegal, imo. Though that alone has issues, within issues, within issues, I doubt we'll ever fix them all, either. Immigration in this country is, well, often times, laughable.

The world, and this country, may be better than it once was, but it's not perfect. When push comes to shove and a parent has to choose the lesser of two evils, I would hope they'd opt for whatever would benefit their child(ren) the most.

It's very tough to sit here and say "what they did was completely wrong", when I can truly understand why so many do it.

[Tammyjh]

Originally Posted by K.A.T

This is a very tough one. I feel badly that these children are being denied, but at the same time, I don't think they should be citizens to begin with.

I can't stand that a person can hop the border have a child and that child is automatically a citizen. I do like that they have made it so that they can still be deported and can come back once they're 18. But I feel that if the parents couldn't take the time out to come here properly, then their children shouldn't be able to have the same benefits that other citizens have.

I really do hate the idea of kids going hungry, but maybe if stuff like this happens then parents would think twice about crossing the border just to have their baby. We have enough homeless and poverty stricken true citizens here as is, we don't need more that aren't citizens. It's sad but hey life isn't fair.

This is how I feel too Liz.

[fluffycheeks]

Originally Posted by Frackel

I find it sad that children, in a country like ours, with so much more than we truly need, have to go hungry at all. Citizens, or not.
It's a very tough situation, though. One I am not certain we will ever make better. Some things, many things even, have changed. But there are STILL many suffering in this country.

I do know what it's like to go hungry, truly hungry. I spent a portion of my very young childhood living in a car, with very little, until a friend of my mother actually realized we were doing so, and gave us a home. No one wanted to help us before then. I remember my mom trying. I remember spending hours inside the welfare office building, not getting help, but at least being happy to not be outside. We were running from a bad situation no one wanted to help us with. No agencies would touch the case with a ten foot pole, restraining orders were filed, but "we're sorry that's all we can do, until he touches you again", was what she got. There was no money to help families like ours back then, and there is apparently even less now. I find that sad, appalling, disgusting...sigh, you name it. This country, overall, has grown exponentially, including financially, and yet we still cannot provide the basics for people within our own borders. It's beyond sad.

I don't think the child should be denied food, simply because the parents couldn't see any other way. I find it sad they felt they had to come here illegally, just to provide a life for either themselves or their child(ren). Yet in the same breath, I also find it commendable. What parent wouldn't do whatever they could, to provide for their child, even the very basics? I can bet when push comes to shove, despite what we might think we'd do, we would all go to great lengths. I remember my mom never eating, giving us her clothes, staying up all night and watching over us. I remember my mom selling off what little we had, to put gas in the car, trying to find friends that would let us use their shower, or help us find a meal. I remember her getting sick, and taking care of us instead. I remember her working so hard, even once we had a home, to the point that we rarely saw her for a while, just so we could keep that home(even though we were not at risk of losing it, we were safe). I remember her doing so very much for us, including some things that others would likely look down on her for doing, just to keep us alive. It may not have lasted for years and years(as in, over ten years, like it does with many families today), but I remember it very well. Enough that it had an impact on me, and how I feel about such things, even still today.
I thank my lucky stars I have never had to go to any of those lengths for my children. But I know, if I had to, I would, without a second thought. I've seen it, I've lived it and I don't think I would have the understanding I do, unless I had. I know, if faced with those decisions still today, if the same scenario were to play out and there was no one to help(or who would help I should say), my mom would make the same decisions she did all those years ago, and I would do the same. I'm **** proud of her that she did, too. We are, and have always been citizens. So that wasn't even applicable to us. There still wasn't help. Not where we lived. Not everyone has the same opportunities as people like to think. It's sad that going somewhere else, where you'll likely be shunned, called a criminal, treated poorly and barely make it, is a dream life compared to where you're coming from. I don't think that's a perspective people think about all too often.
There is just no excuse in this country for things to be the way they are, for so many. We have the resources to help so many outside of our own country, yet we have people within our walls suffering daily. That's mind boggling. Not because we shouldn't help others. But because there is NO reason for the situations to be even remotely like they were, years and years ago. NO reason.

Hot topic, I probably shouldn't have responded to. It touches nerves. The core of the problem isn't that the child's parents are illegal, imo. Though that alone has issues, within issues, within issues, I doubt we'll ever fix them all, either. Immigration in this country is, well, often times, laughable.

The world, and this country, may be better than it once was, but it's not perfect. When push comes to shove and a parent has to choose the lesser of two evils, I would hope they'd opt for whatever would benefit their child(ren) the most.

It's very tough to sit here and say "what they did was completely wrong", when I can truly understand why so many do it.

Heartbreaking. I'm sad your family went through that. I do think that is proof that we aren't ready, as a government, to just open the floodgates and let everyone in because the resources aren't there to help and feed the people who are already here.

I do disagree with the sentiment that we shouldn't help and send aid to those in other countries though. I think it's our responsibility to do what we can. Others in other countries have it so much worse than us, and a little goes a long way in places like AFrica where they have nothing at all. I don't think it's realistic to say let's not help others, if they want to better their lives, just come here. Families starving in the streets of India, or the deserts of Africa will never have the option of just walking across the border, it costs them thousands of dollars in transportation fees, and if they don't even have enough to eat, they'll never have the chance to move here. Saying "just move here to better your life" really only applies to those in a couple of latin American countries.

[plan4fate]

Originally Posted by fluffycheeks

Heartbreaking. I'm sad your family went through that. I do think that is proof that we aren't ready, as a government, to just open the floodgates and let everyone in because the resources aren't there to help and feed the people who are already here.

I do disagree with the sentiment that we shouldn't help and send aid to those in other countries though. I think it's our responsibility to do what we can. Others in other countries have it so much worse than us, and a little goes a long way in places like AFrica where they have nothing at all. I don't think it's realistic to say let's not help others, if they want to better their lives, just come here. Families starving in the streets of India, or the deserts of Africa will never have the option of just walking across the border, it costs them thousands of dollars in transportation fees, and if they don't even have enough to eat, they'll never have the chance to move here. Saying "just move here to better your life" really only applies to those in a couple of Latin American countries.

But $1 a day or $30 a month could also really help a lot of American kids (legal or not) who are going with out, sick or living on the street too. What people are upset about is "I'm sorry, there's no money for things to help you... but we'll send lots of foreign aid elsewhere".

That's part of what I don't get about down here. Most are against paying taxes to UHC because they don't want to be paying for someone elses's healthcare... but they're fine with millions going out in foreign aid, paying for healthcare for those who are living half way around the world. What about the people right here in this country?

If private people want to donate to Africa or India have at it, but there should be non profit, low overhead options to donate that money right here into the USA. But the Gov't money, should be going towards the people here who are in need first, elsewhere second.


*you as in general sense*

[HappyHippy]

Originally Posted by fluffycheeks

Heartbreaking. I'm sad your family went through that. I do think that is proof that we aren't ready, as a government, to just open the floodgates and let everyone in because the resources aren't there to help and feed the people who are already here.

I do disagree with the sentiment that we shouldn't help and send aid to those in other countries though. I think it's our responsibility to do what we can. Others in other countries have it so much worse than us, and a little goes a long way in places like AFrica where they have nothing at all. I don't think it's realistic to say let's not help others, if they want to better their lives, just come here. Families starving in the streets of India, or the deserts of Africa will never have the option of just walking across the border, it costs them thousands of dollars in transportation fees, and if they don't even have enough to eat, they'll never have the chance to move here. Saying "just move here to better your life" really only applies to those in a couple of latin American countries.

While I think every country that can help out should, I think the reason why people get upset is because we *do* have people who are going hungry or living in cars or under a bridge etc in the US. People are tired of the US sending our aid to other countries, when we have people in need in the US already. Why not help our own country first, and then leftovers go to other countries?

And just to add, sometimes the aid the US sends to other countries brings about more bad than good. The trucks will be stolen or raided and not rationed out to those in need, which can cause violence.

Why Foreign Aid Is Hurting Africa - WSJ.com

[GSLynn]

The kids ONLY should get welfare and an advocate should disburse in a way that meets the children's best interest. Also, the parents should have opportunity to get LEGAL. The kids have a right to be here, and somehow, the parents need to step up and do what's right too. Parents should always be held accountable for their actions, and I do agree that they are desperate to work and do sometimes get taken advantage of. It disgusts me that there are people in Billion dollar mansions and yet there are people living her in America that starve. I don't believe in people taking advantage of everything..

[HappyHippy]

Just because parents come here ilegally doesn't mean they aren't "stepping up". Going to another country ilegally to try to provide a better life for your kid seems to be like "stepping up" to me. I'm sure many want to be legal, but are afraid that their kids will get taken from them if they tell people they are here ilegally. I'm sure it's very scary to knowingly cross into another country ilegally for a better life.

[plan4fate]

Originally Posted by GSLynn

The kids ONLY should get welfare and an advocate should disburse in a way that meets the children's best interest. Also, the parents should have opportunity to get LEGAL. The kids have a right to be here, and somehow, the parents need to step up and do what's right too. Parents should always be held accountable for their actions, and I do agree that they are desperate to work and do sometimes get taken advantage of. It disgusts me that there are people in Billion dollar mansions and yet there are people living her in America that starve. I don't believe in people taking advantage of everything..

I hope you mean new rules and methods of doing so.. because with the current laws and regulations it's nearly impossible unless one of your kids is 18 with a good job.

[GSLynn]

^I know that, but it still SHOULD be possible. I know that it doesn't work that way.

[Tammyjh]

How is household income verified for these children to receive assistance though?

[K.A.T]

Tammy I believe that's the main problem the state is having. They cannot verify income properly. So with this new regulation, now instead of a child who's eligible for food stamps based off of income for a family of 5, now they based off of income for a family of 3/4 depending on if one or both parents are illegal.

[Fluga]

I was under the impression that it is really hard to become a legal migrant in US and that tightening the laws just makes it even harder. I also hear that the process is really expensive so that low income illegals dont really stand a chance to become legal.

As for foreign aid, US makes quite a lot of money from having factories in other countries where salaries are low. It seems fair to me that they give back some of the money so that the people making the ipads, nikes and whatnot can actually feed themselves.

[Poncho06]

Wait, so corporations outsource a large source of employment for US citizens contributing to the large unemployment numbers here, so citizens should then be obligated to provide even more foreign aid? The Chinese government places at 17% VAT on ALL products manufactured there. Mexico is 15%. Your neck of the woods is between 23-25%. Those governments are making a large percent on the value of the products they are exporting. The US does not have a federal VAT but relies upon state issued sales tax that ONLY charges tax when the products is sold as finished end user.

As for the original question. I'm not sure what can be put into place so the children are fed and not being punished for their parents choice to come to the US illegally. Perhaps some form of emancipation for the children so they can collect benefits that they are entitled to without being penalized for their parents actions.

Originally Posted by Fluga

I was under the impression that it is really hard to become a legal migrant in US and that tightening the laws just makes it even harder. I also hear that the process is really expensive so that low income illegals dont really stand a chance to become legal.

As for foreign aid, US makes quite a lot of money from having factories in other countries where salaries are low. It seems fair to me that they give back some of the money so that the people making the ipads, nikes and whatnot can actually feed themselves.

[angelsailor288]

No.. they shouldnt get it. The parents should be here legally in order to receive any financial aid.

If I, as a working American citizen who cant afford to put food on the table, cannot get food stamps... why should illegals be able to?

[plan4fate]

Originally Posted by Fluga

I was under the impression that it is really hard to become a legal migrant in US and that tightening the laws just makes it even harder. I also hear that the process is really expensive so that low income illegals dont really stand a chance to become legal.

As for foreign aid, US makes quite a lot of money from having factories in other countries where salaries are low. It seems fair to me that they give back some of the money so that the people making the ipads, nikes and whatnot can actually feed themselves.

Yes, it is very hard to become a legal citizen to the USA, and yes it is expensive. A single person can spend a years poverty salary ($25k) to immigrate depending on where they move from, how much medical attention they need prior (especially if they're already in the US) and whether they have to do any travel to get what they need done. It gets more costly to move a family.


And you want to take more money from American citizens and send to other countries because the US uses cheap labor? I think the solution there would be make the companies to pay a fair wage and lower their profits not take from tax payer monies to give aid to those countries.

As unfair as that US companies pay low wages in other countries, they are giving jobs to people who might not get one other wise. And the US pays crap wages here too sometimes. I often wonder how people who earn minimum wage survive, DH alone had to make $1500 a month to get our apartment, that's 51hrs a week a minimum wage....

Originally Posted by angelsailor288

No.. they shouldn't get it. The parents should be here legally in order to receive any financial aid.

If I, as a working American citizen who cant afford to put food on the table, cannot get food stamps... why should illegals be able to?

But based on current US law, the children ARE legal citizens. So they get punished for their parents (who might actually also pay taxes) choice to come to a better country?

[lesliek0211]

Originally Posted by ~Tithen~

Something just got me thinking... A Walmart employee told me that if you purchase the wrong product for consumption, no matter what it is, when you return the old one, they throw it out. Yes, even a can of peas, goes in the garbage. I watched it happen tonight with an entire bag of food, the lady in front of me was disgusted and swore not only would she never send her husband shopping again, but she'd be looking for a store that didn't do this

My husband decided if we buy the wrong product, we'll find someone who can use it before we return it. Usually it's only a couple of bucks, we're doing alright for money. Course I've also seen him slip a $20 to a woman who was sorting through her order because she was $15 short for an order of groceries because her stamp weren't stretching (she was mumbling to herself about it)




I can only imagine the families who could use that food. Have things been so bad here in the US with food returns being dangerous that they have to throw them out? Walmart would throw it out even if you hadn't left the store (I asked) as soon as you pay for it, they have to throw it out.

We threw out perishables in Canada, things that would be affected by by being handled and had the temperature change... but a can of peas? a box of cereal?




*we found this out when we were returning two unused bottles of mineral oil that DH decided he wasn't going to use. She marked off the upc and I asked why... and she explained. I then followed up another day with the manager, who explained company policy. I was so sad.

Alicia you work for Target right? Do they do this too?

Because as soon as you donate it to a homeless shelter and someone gets sick, the donator is held liable for their good deed. That's why they can't do it. I worked for Kraft Foods for years, and we had to cut all the boxes open before putting them in the dumpster, to curb dumpster divers from taking them and then getting the company in trouble later.