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man shot to death by cops while holding baby


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  • 1 Post By Frackel
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  #1  
February 18th, 2012, 07:38 PM
Quantum_Leap's Avatar frequent flier
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What do you think of the actions of the police in this situation?

Man shot to death while holding baby | wcsh6.com
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  #2  
February 18th, 2012, 10:07 PM
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There is one commenter that makes a very good argument against what this cop did, I'll quote it, because he covers most of what I would have typed anyway. I seriously think this cop needs to be investigated further, and much closer. This is his 7th shot in 10 years, in a profession where discharging your firearm is NOT your goal. Most cops do whatever they can to avoid having to do that. This one, however, did not. He didn't even listen to other officers on the scene. I find that utterly scary.

Quote:
I am a disabled combat Marine veteran. The rules of engagement and the use of force for Marines are less strict than they are for members of the civivilan police force; the situation described in this article still would not pass the sniff test in the Marines. Thinking someone is holding a weapon in their hand or has a weapon on them is not enough to go weapons free. The man must make a threatening action with the object and the object must be positiively identified as harmful or if not a weapon then a reasonable person in the same siituation must must reach the same conclusion as the officer did in order that the engagement be a justifiable.

What I typed are general rules of thumbs when a person is not holding an infant. With the child present aiming at the head alone becomes unjustifiable due to the proximity of the chi...ld's head to the point of impact; lower extremeties should have been the target as their primary goal should be to ensure the life of the child. Yes, even over their own lives. They chose a dangerous profession where the child is a true innocent.

If you still want to give the officer that discharged his weapon the benefit of the doubt then ask yourself this: How come the 2 other officers present, despite their training, did not discharge their weapons after the first round was fired? I think it is pretty common knowledge that firing 1 shot to the head of subject is not how the police are trained to employ their firearms.

For those curious: Yes, during my active duty service I was forced to make decisions about the method of engaging a threat, not always from an adult The situation in this article is BS to me and I have empathy for people put in this type of situation.

And Mike, an individual's history is a tool to use in order to be as prepared as possible. That history does not justify the use of deadly force, nor does an individuals history lower the threshold that must be met before using deadly force; regardless of its' severity
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  #3  
February 18th, 2012, 11:56 PM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
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Cop Shoots Man Holding Baby: James Loxas Killed In Phoeniz

I had to look up something with more details.


But even so, I just don't know. I really do not like that they gunned him down, when they could not confirm him armed while holding a child.

*sigh* I don't understand the technicalities and legal aspects. I don't know what is enough evidence for a cop to start shooting at someone. Is "thinking" they saw a weapon enough to shoot?


I just can't get my head past the "what if they'd hit the baby.. would the city justify it?" question that's dancing around in there.
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  #4  
February 19th, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Sad, although i'm not sure they could have done much else, what we would usually rather them do, taze them, i believe would have killed the baby, so in a way it's kind of a good thing that they decided to do that instead, but really i'm wondering what else they really tried, if they weren't even close enough to him to see that he had a child in his arms, i would think the way to go about it would be to assess the situation, which they would find a child, then get the proper people involved, like a hostage negotiator or something.
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  #5  
February 19th, 2012, 05:27 AM
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In Tithens article it states he had been threatening his neighbors with a gun prompting the calls to the police. They knew he had a weapon on his person or home to it's not a huge leap to mistake him for holding one. Especially while not following orders to come out.

SWAT team members receive more training in marksmanship than other officers, more importantly in shooting a suspect who may be using a person (or child) as a shield. If this were an untrained officer then I would be opposed to any attempts like this regardless of the outcome.

I guess without more information I can't form an opinion 100% in either direction. There are too many variables that would sway it. What was the verbal exchange taking place? Was his other hand empty or did he have an item in it? How was he standing, was most of his body, along with the child, behind a door with his head poking out (hope that makes sense)?
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  #6  
February 19th, 2012, 10:19 AM
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So the neighbors called and said he was threatening them with a handgun, but after he was shot (presumably no one left him go back inside and say, get rid of the gun), they didn't find a gun on his person? Was he being threatening towards the police, or just standing there? I need more info.
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  #7  
February 19th, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glasscandie View Post
So the neighbors called and said he was threatening them with a handgun, but after he was shot (presumably no one left him go back inside and say, get rid of the gun), they didn't find a gun on his person? Was he being threatening towards the police, or just standing there? I need more info.
that's where my mind was when I went looking for another article. All I could find is that his guns were in the house one on a chair, and a shotgun somewhere. I'll do another search.
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  #8  
February 19th, 2012, 10:32 AM
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Arizona man killed by police while holding baby in his arms

Quote:
When officers arrived, the neighbors told police a man was walking with a baby in his arms when an argument escalated and the man pulled out a handgun. They say he threatened two of his neighbors with the gun.

The article in the op states:

Quote:
Detectives did not find a weapon on Loxas following the shooting, but did locate several firearms inside the home.
and

Quote:
Investigators say the officers on the scene thought Loxas was holding a gun.
so I guess confront your neighbors with gun + owning gun + cops thinking you are holding gun = enough evidence to shoot?


*make no wonder people don't want gun registries*
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  #9  
February 19th, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlixJ20 View Post
Sad, although i'm not sure they could have done much else, what we would usually rather them do, taze them, i believe would have killed the baby, so in a way it's kind of a good thing that they decided to do that instead, but really i'm wondering what else they really tried, if they weren't even close enough to him to see that he had a child in his arms, i would think the way to go about it would be to assess the situation, which they would find a child, then get the proper people involved, like a hostage negotiator or something.

How would the guy being tazed kill the baby? Have you ever seen someone be tazed or experienced it? It's only between the two probes where the electricity is being generated. When they do demonstrations and taze an officer, for example, two other officers hold his/her arms and lay the person down when their muscles seize....

ANYWAY, it says the cop is was(is) a swat team member, so that may explain him having shot so many people, especially in a bigger city. Surely you wouldn't expect an officer to have shot 7 people in rural Kansas or anything. As for the shooting itself who knows if you'll even know all the details. I guess just be thankful that the cop was a decent shot.
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  #10  
February 19th, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post


*make no wonder people don't want gun registries*
Huh?
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  #11  
February 20th, 2012, 01:38 PM
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I need more information to form an opinion. At any rate, this guy wasn't make good decision & I feel sorry for his grandchild.
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