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Surrogacy and some uncomfortable feelings about it


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  #41  
March 24th, 2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah79 View Post
This whole post has me confused. At the top, you are telling me that most and some don't equal all, but I am not referring to any of those words in any of your previous posts. In fact, the sentence I am referring to is



Then at the very end, you say that you mean real surrogates are "those that are doing for the sake of building a family". So the term real surrogate must not be technical. You are just determining who you believe to be a good surrogate and who isn't, right?
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!
It's a shame that a community that is so small and could be wonderful, apparently deals with their own dramas and pissing matches.
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  #42  
March 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM
peace.love.audrey's Avatar Twins? Pinch me!
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My thought process is really very simple.....I don't care if other people see it as selfless or selfish, my IPs have a desire for a family and I have the means to give them one. I know my reasons and I know they are honest. To me, its just that cut and dry.
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  #43  
March 24th, 2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah79 View Post
This whole post has me confused. At the top, you are telling me that most and some don't equal all, but I am not referring to any of those words in any of your previous posts. In fact, the sentence I am referring to is



Then at the very end, you say that you mean real surrogates are "those that are doing for the sake of building a family". So the term real surrogate must not be technical. You are just determining who you believe to be a good surrogate and who isn't, right?
Do you think that a surrogate who is going into a trainwreck of a situation is a good surrogate? PLEASE do not say that you think just "anyone" can be a good surrogate.

Thank you Jennifer, for speaking up. That is exactly what makes a surrogate a surrogate. I'm sorry that people don't get that. But you can't worry about what everyone else thinks. They have their opinions and judgments, but you're doing a good thing. Don't let a few women who don't understand or have never been there sway your decision.

Really, it doesn't matter what anyone on here thinks anyway. God-forbid any of you ladies ever needed a surrogate, because I would feel really bad about how the surrogate would be judged and treated by you. In my case, my IP's have a daughter and are very happy. That's all that matters in the end.
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  #44  
March 24th, 2012, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
Do you think that a surrogate who is going into a trainwreck of a situation is a good surrogate? PLEASE do not say that you think just "anyone" can be a good surrogate.

Thank you Jennifer, for speaking up. That is exactly what makes a surrogate a surrogate. I'm sorry that people don't get that. But you can't worry about what everyone else thinks. They have their opinions and judgments, but you're doing a good thing. Don't let a few women who don't understand or have never been there sway your decision.

Really, it doesn't matter what anyone on here thinks anyway. God-forbid any of you ladies ever needed a surrogate, because I would feel really bad about how the surrogate would be judged and treated by you. In my case, my IP's have a daughter and are very happy. That's all that matters in the end.
Not one person is saying that surrogacy is a bad thing. As a matter of fact, you are doing just as much judging here as anyone else. No one is perfect and thus no surrogate is perfect. Of course there are bad candidates for numerous reasons, but anyone that goes through with it is doing the same thing you did. Not one person on here has said that Jennifer is doing a bad thing, in fact I think she has been honest about her intentions and reasons for being a surrogate. I think anyone who is saying they are doing it solely for the benefit of the other parents is lying to people and perhaps even themselves. Despite the fact that you are doing what you perceive as 100% altruistic and Jennifer admits to reasons that have to do with herself, that doesn't make you a "real" surrogate and her not. Again, the end result is the same. Not one person on here is saying that surrogacy is bad or that surrogates are bad or anything of the sort. In fact, if I needed one, I wouldn't hesitate to use one if I had the means. And I would be forever grateful to the surrogate mother. I'm not sure where you are construing that we are all against surrogacy. You seem to be judging other surrogate moms more harshly than anyone else on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peace.love.audrey View Post
My thought process is really very simple.....I don't care if other people see it as selfless or selfish, my IPs have a desire for a family and I have the means to give them one. I know my reasons and I know they are honest. To me, its just that cut and dry.
And that's a really good way/place to be. My point is that it doesn't matter whether it is selfless or selfish, you are still giving someone something that they wouldn't have otherwise. The outcome is the same, so ultimately it is a good thing. Judging other surrogates because you think they aren't "real" ones is what I have a problem with at this point.
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  #45  
March 24th, 2012, 01:44 PM
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I am a mother through surrogacy and I can tell you from my perspective and the perspective of the many other parents through surrogacy that I know that your judgements regarding surrogacy are misguided.

First, let me say that I do not believe that my child is any more "special" than a child who came into the world in any other way. In the grand scheme of things he's "just" a kid among many. Also, I cannot speak about adoption because I have no experience there.

~~altruism |ˈaltroōˌizəm|
noun
the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others : ~~

The majority of surrogates do NOT make "big $." I do not understand your perception that surrogacy somehow makes children a commodity; the money that is given to surrogates is to compensate them for the pain and suffering that they go through while pregnant. Their families also make sacrifices.

As parents through surrogacy we gladly pay our surrogates and we GREATLY resent those who suggest that we are buying our children. Please think about what you are saying before you say it again and perhaps you will see how hurtful it is to the parents, children and surrogates involved.

Imagine you are infertile. Imagine you pursue surrogacy and woman devotes her time (and so much more) to providing you with a baby. Do you ask her to do it for free? In addition to being a mother through surrogacy I have also given birth and I could never ask a woman to be a surrogate for me for free because I know what pregnancy involves. Before I entered into surrogacy I also did months of research and I learned how much work went into the "job" that was outside of the pregnancy. Perhaps before you judge you should do the same.

Please do not mistake my tone for being overly strident - I simply hope that my perspective can help you to see that your judgements should end and you can perhaps replace your feelings with some sympathy for the women and men who need to turn to surrogacy. It is truly many people's ONLY way to become parents and the surrogates who bring these beloved babies to them deserve respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindyRambo View Post
First off, it's been way too quiet in here!

Seems like lately I have been hearing a lot about surrogacy, and not just on this board, but on other boards and in real life.

I am going to open myself up here to possible flammage by admitting that itís one thing that I have always felt really judgemental about. I would like to understand it a bit more, and I would like to feel less judgemental about it. Letís face it, itís none of my freaking business.

I think one thing that really bothers me, and it also bothered me on adoption boards, is that when someone annouces they will be a surrogate, that is then followed by a flurry of compliments to that person to the effect of ďYou are so selfless, so generous, what a wonderful gift to give to another coupleĒ

I have to admit it really rubs me the wrong way. I actually donít see it as that selfless, especially since big $ can be made being a surrogate. Itís not altruistic imo, and in fact I can see how some people could thrive on that attention, and I donít think thatís a good thing. Those comments rubbed me the wrong way on adoption boards too, because I donít think you need to be a saint to adopt or to place a child for adoption, and it pisses me off when people say that, because it implies that you would have to be saint to love a child that is not biologically your own. I think some are convinced they could only love their bio kids and thatís just crazy to me.

I think the thing that bothers me the most though is my own perception of it leading to the commodification of children.

I also think that when you use your own eggs to be a surrogate you are opening yourself up (and the couple) to a lot of possible legal problems.

I also know that a new generation of children is finally getting old enough to talk about their experiences being the children of surrogates. Iíve heard a lot from these young people and many of them feel abandoned by their surrogate, they wish they had a relationship with the person who gave them life, and they are often denied this by surrogates who go out of their way not to ďget attachedĒ to the child they are carrying.

I would like to understand better, and I hate the judgement I feel. Please help me see things from a different perspective.
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  #46  
March 24th, 2012, 01:44 PM
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WHOA-first of all, re-read everything before posting a response. I NEVER said Jennifer wouldn't make a good or real surrogate AT ALL EVER. WOW. Bold assumption to assume I was calling her a bad surrogate or saying she isn't better than I or another surrogate. I stated some people wouldn't make good candidates or have bad reasons, but I'm not talking about HER or any particular surrogate t all!!!! In fact, I think she will make an EXCELLENT one. Why would you even post that? Now you got Jennifer thinking I'm talking bad about her? WTH seriously??

I believe the OP was about surrogacy in GENERAL. Not about Jennifer, specifically. Please re-read my posts with THAT in mind. Wow.
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Last edited by GSLynn; March 24th, 2012 at 01:47 PM.
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  #47  
March 24th, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
Do you think that a surrogate who is going into a trainwreck of a situation is a good surrogate? PLEASE do not say that you think just "anyone" can be a good surrogate.

Thank you Jennifer, for speaking up. That is exactly what makes a surrogate a surrogate. I'm sorry that people don't get that. But you can't worry about what everyone else thinks. They have their opinions and judgments, but you're doing a good thing. Don't let a few women who don't understand or have never been there sway your decision.

Really, it doesn't matter what anyone on here thinks anyway. God-forbid any of you ladies ever needed a surrogate, because I would feel really bad about how the surrogate would be judged and treated by you. In my case, my IP's have a daughter and are very happy. That's all that matters in the end.
What are you talking about? I am not judging anyone. If you would read any of my posts instead of posting whatever you believe a good surrogate should be, you would have read that I don't have a problem with surrogacy. For at least the third time, I am saying that YOU (specific) cannot make sweeping generalizations about the reasons why a person becomes a surrogate. You are not the mouthpiece for all surrogates, real or fake or good intentioned or whatever else there is. You are the one deciding and judging if their reasons are good enough. No one is attacking surrogates, except you. You need to learn how to separate the different issues that are being discussed.

Gslynn, I am not sure where you got the idea that I thought anyone would be a good surrogate. I don't think I ever made any type of judgment on who would make a good candidate for surrogacy or not.
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  #48  
March 24th, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah79 View Post
What are you talking about? I am not judging anyone. If you would read any of my posts instead of posting whatever you believe a good surrogate should be, you would have read that I don't have a problem with surrogacy. For at least the third time, I am saying that YOU (specific) cannot make sweeping generalizations about the reasons why a person becomes a surrogate. You are not the mouthpiece for all surrogates, real or fake or good intentioned or whatever else there is. You are the one deciding and judging if their reasons are good enough. No one is attacking surrogates, except you. You need to learn how to separate the different issues that are being discussed.
And I'm saying I am NOT making sweeping generalizations. You have been saying that over and over, and I have told you a million times that when someone uses "some" or "most" or "several" in their posts, they are not saying "all" in any way. You are missing every single point I'm making anyway. I haven't attacked anyone. And Jennifer knows I support her decision, and not all posts are only directed to you.

Just read the link. CLEARLY I cannot get my point across, so I'm not going to try any further. It is only making everyone upset with me and wasting everyone's time.

OP sorry, I guess I can't explain clearly or something, so if you have any more questions, I'd be happy to PM you and direct you to a few other surrogates (other than myself) that can explain things from their POV also. I don't know what you're looking for in your question, obviously. This is just irritating. People pick apart words and what they "want" to believe and then they just make up things in their heads. That comes from lack of education on the subject and I don't know where else to direct them. I know there are surrogacy forums you can go to also for more info.
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  #49  
March 24th, 2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
WHOA-first of all, re-read everything before posting a response. I NEVER said Jennifer wouldn't make a good or real surrogate AT ALL EVER. WOW. Bold assumption to assume I was calling her a bad surrogate or saying she isn't better than I or another surrogate. I stated some people wouldn't make good candidates or have bad reasons, but I'm not talking about HER or any particular surrogate t all!!!! In fact, I think she will make an EXCELLENT one. Why would you even post that? Now you got Jennifer thinking I'm talking bad about her? WTH seriously??

I believe the OP was about surrogacy in GENERAL. Not about Jennifer, specifically. Please re-read my posts with THAT in mind. Wow.
You stated: "If it's a REAL surrogate, it is altruistic, we do not "expect" anything at all."

Jennifer expects to fulfill the happiness she gets by wanting to be pregnant, while not having to raise another child because her hubby doesn't want another child. So, she wants to fill a void for a family and expects to find joy in being pregnant because she likes it.

I know what your response will be, that it was a general statement and not directed at her. But, that's like saying "bad parents let their kids drink pop" and then saying "oh, your kids drinks pop? I didn't call you a bad parent, I didn't say _____ is a bad parent"

I don't think you think she is a "not real" surrogate, but that just proves everyone's point that your broad statements don't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
And I'm saying I am NOT making sweeping generalizations. You have been saying that over and over, and I have told you a million times that when someone uses "some" or "most" or "several" in their posts, they are not saying "all" in any way. You are missing every single point I'm making anyway. I haven't attacked anyone. And Jennifer knows I support her decision, and not all posts are only directed to you.

Just read the link. CLEARLY I cannot get my point across, so I'm not going to try any further. It is only making everyone upset with me and wasting everyone's time.

OP sorry, I guess I can't explain clearly or something, so if you have any more questions, I'd be happy to PM you and direct you to a few other surrogates (other than myself) that can explain things from their POV also. I don't know what you're looking for in your question, obviously. This is just irritating. People pick apart words and what they "want" to believe and then they just make up things in their heads. That comes from lack of education on the subject and I don't know where else to direct them. I know there are surrogacy forums you can go to also for more info.
Lack of education on the subject? Do you ever step back and take a minute to realize how absolutely insulting you can be? You are on a board full of educated women, many of which have looked into adoptions, surrogacy, IVF, etc. People not agreeing with you does not equal ignorance on their part. Further, nothing you have posted has been FACT. You are posting your opinion and using words like "most" and "many", based on your anecdotal evidence from whatever sources you have read.
And for the record, the words most and many are typically used to describe a majority. We clearly know you don't mean every.single.surrogate of all time. But obviously you think it's the majority.
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Last edited by *Leslie*; March 24th, 2012 at 02:13 PM.
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  #50  
March 24th, 2012, 02:13 PM
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I guess you don't get it. You won't get it. I don't care to further bother with this any longer.

Jennifer KNOWS I would not say that she's not a 'real' surrogate. I told you guys in my first post, not everything was going to apply to people in here, but that I Had heard it all outside here too, and that I would post about it. I did that, just like I said. Now you are trying to turn it around and assume I decided to start comparing myself with Jennifer (or so that's what it seems like). I don't know why, I don't care why. SHE knows how I feel about her doing this. Her reasons ARE altruistic in my opinion, regardless of what "technical" words everyone wants to use and break apart. Sorry, but that's how I feel about what she said.


Don't forget, I provided a link to an agency that I used which lists only some of what surrogates go through. And try not to forget, I actually AM a surrogate. Please read Surromomsonline. Apparently, another surrogate decided to post this thread there. I'm not the ONLY one who feels that you guys (reading about surrogacy) are not educated in THIS SUBJECT (no where did I say you or anyone else is simply just uneducated---as 'in general'). Please read ALL the words.
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Last edited by GSLynn; March 24th, 2012 at 02:15 PM.
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  #51  
March 24th, 2012, 02:21 PM
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So you have changed your definition of a real surrogate?
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  #52  
March 24th, 2012, 02:31 PM
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^
No, I sure don't.

Altruistic in Merriam-Webster has a slightly different definition that what was posted and THAT (NOT wikipedia or other online source) is the definition I use. Based on Merriam-Webster dictionary (Altruism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary) since you girls want to be like to the wire for defining s**t, would be this one:

" unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others"

which surrogates fit that definition EXACTLY.

I think more of you are not bothered by surrogacy at all, but by PAID surrogacy. That's really what is causing the anguish among some...
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  #53  
March 24th, 2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
^
No, I sure don't.

Altruistic in Merriam-Webster has a slightly different definition that what was posted and THAT (NOT wikipedia or other online source) is the definition I use. Based on Merriam-Webster dictionary (Altruism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary) since you girls want to be like to the wire for defining s**t, would be this one:

" unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others"

which surrogates fit that definition EXACTLY.

I think more of you are not bothered by surrogacy at all, but by PAID surrogacy. That's really what is causing the anguish among some...
Altruism also means not looking for recognition
Altruism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Pure altruism consists of sacrificing something for someone other than the self (e.g. sacrificing time, energy or possessions) with no expectation of any compensation or benefits, either direct, or indirect (for instance from recognition of the giving).
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  #54  
March 24th, 2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
A real surrogate is someone that has a baby and gives it to the other parents to raise. Regardless of the reasons, the end result is the same (except in situations where they don't give the child to the parents when it is born). You keep saying "real" as though you and others like you are a step above "non-real" surrogates, just because of their reasoning for doing it. I think people do it for a variety of reasons, but really I won't begrduge anyone for doing it at all. I may think someone is an attention-*****, but the result is the same, they gave a child to someone who couldn't have one. I think really the only problem that people have is that people act like they are doing it 100% for others, and I don't believe that to be the case in the majority of situations.
Ok I can't argue this. But I can say there have been plenty of surrogates who have not done that, fought doing that, or does it so that she can survive, and those are not the makings of a good (perhaps GOOD would be a better word) surrogate. We also just went through a scandal where a bad agency was baby-selling and the ladies called themselves surrogates....but they were not really surrogates. They were scammers, babysellers, etc. Maybe, if those things were known in the beginning here, you'd have understood what I meant when I said I was going to post stuff that wasn't brought up HERE. At the same time, anyone could have simply asked me if they had confusion. The surrogate community already has judgments, then we have scandals, and that makes it worse. Forgive me if I posted "real" over good for these reasons.

Let me direct you ladies to some threads and see if that gives you a better understanding as to why I am so passionate about this--keep in mind this is already on a public forum, so it's not a "secret" or anything:
Anyone currently working with Hilary Nieman?????? - SMO Message Boards
Our first attempt to share answers... - SMO Message Boards
Sentencing Time - Erickson - SMO Message Boards
Fact NOT fiction! - SMO Message Boards

This is the SHORT list of all the trainwrecks!



Tammy-No surrogate I have personally met is famous for being a surrogate. I don't think that surrogates generally want to be "recognized" as a whole. Maybe they will tell a few people, but I have yet to see anyone on TV for being a famous celebrity surrogate.
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  #55  
March 24th, 2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
Ok I can't argue this. But I can say there have been plenty of surrogates who have not done that, fought doing that, or does it so that she can survive, and those are not the makings of a good (perhaps GOOD would be a better word) surrogate. We also just went through a scandal where a bad agency was baby-selling and the ladies called themselves surrogates....but they were not really surrogates. They were scammers, babysellers, etc. Maybe, if those things were known in the beginning here, you'd have understood what I meant when I said I was going to post stuff that wasn't brought up HERE. At the same time, anyone could have simply asked me if they had confusion. The surrogate community already has judgments, then we have scandals, and that makes it worse. Forgive me if I posted "real" over good for these reasons.

Let me direct you ladies to some threads and see if that gives you a better understanding as to why I am so passionate about this--keep in mind this is already on a public forum, so it's not a "secret" or anything:
Anyone currently working with Hilary Nieman?????? - SMO Message Boards
Our first attempt to share answers... - SMO Message Boards
Sentencing Time - Erickson - SMO Message Boards
Fact NOT fiction! - SMO Message Boards

This is the SHORT list of all the trainwrecks!



Tammy-No surrogate I have personally met is famous for being a surrogate. I don't think that surrogates generally want to be "recognized" as a whole. Maybe they will tell a few people, but I have yet to see anyone on TV for being a famous celebrity surrogate.
Who said anything about being famous? Wanting recognition doesn't mean one is trying to achieve celebrity status.
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  #56  
March 24th, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
Who said anything about being famous? Wanting recognition doesn't mean one is trying to achieve celebrity status.
OK well there's no surrogate award assemblies either, or news broadcasts, or community events recognizing the surrogate, etc...either. It's pretty much the IP's and the surrogate, and those people closest to them, well, and RE's, OB's, nurses, hospital staff and those who "have" to be in the journey. Sure,there's always a few people only doing it for attention, but that, once again, isn't the norm. In fact, in a group I'm a member of that's not on JM, there are 31 girls and they all, yes ALL, have said that they do not talk much about their journeys in person, only online, where they are just words on a screen.
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  #57  
March 24th, 2012, 05:43 PM
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I can't believe how much judging is going on!! I wouldn't say much except that:

My sister, and 2 of my best friends are/have been surrogates! They would probably rip you all new ones for the things you're saying.

You for real that surrogates who get paid are selfish? Doesn't seem like I see many parents on here who had to use a surrogate, so.............

I think my sister and my bff's are awesome people. They don't do it to be recognized or for money. They don't do it for any reason but to help someone else. They get joy out of it, and satisfaction from watching someone have completed their family. I get joy out of seeing the people I love do something for society that isn't just donating money or related to a cause. My sister isn't rich from it as she got LESS than $17K, my BFF's, though they took more compensation, aren't rich either. Why can't some of you admit that you're nothing but jealous? Those who do surrogacy have big and giving hearts. I could never do it myself but I definitely don't assume that those who do it don't have true intentions.


To the two surrogates: Don't bother responding to these people, some people like to live in ignorance and judgement.
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  #58  
March 24th, 2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tablefor7 View Post
I am a mother through surrogacy and I can tell you from my perspective and the perspective of the many other parents through surrogacy that I know that your judgements regarding surrogacy are misguided.

First, let me say that I do not believe that my child is any more "special" than a child who came into the world in any other way. In the grand scheme of things he's "just" a kid among many. Also, I cannot speak about adoption because I have no experience there.

~~altruism |ˈaltroōˌizəm|
noun
the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others : ~~

The majority of surrogates do NOT make "big $." I do not understand your perception that surrogacy somehow makes children a commodity; the money that is given to surrogates is to compensate them for the pain and suffering that they go through while pregnant. Their families also make sacrifices.

As parents through surrogacy we gladly pay our surrogates and we GREATLY resent those who suggest that we are buying our children. Please think about what you are saying before you say it again and perhaps you will see how hurtful it is to the parents, children and surrogates involved.

Imagine you are infertile. Imagine you pursue surrogacy and woman devotes her time (and so much more) to providing you with a baby. Do you ask her to do it for free? In addition to being a mother through surrogacy I have also given birth and I could never ask a woman to be a surrogate for me for free because I know what pregnancy involves. Before I entered into surrogacy I also did months of research and I learned how much work went into the "job" that was outside of the pregnancy. Perhaps before you judge you should do the same.

Please do not mistake my tone for being overly strident - I simply hope that my perspective can help you to see that your judgements should end and you can perhaps replace your feelings with some sympathy for the women and men who need to turn to surrogacy. It is truly many people's ONLY way to become parents and the surrogates who bring these beloved babies to them deserve respect.

Thank you for posting from an IP's perspective! I think you sum up so much of my thoughts, but not in an overly-emotional way! Thanks!

I think I just got too upset and couldn't form my thoughts properly. A few birdies told me that, lol
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1 Girl 2011 and 1 Boy 2013. Their family is COMPLETE!

Surrogacy # 3 for new family?: 2014??

Last edited by GSLynn; March 24th, 2012 at 06:25 PM.
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  #59  
March 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Just a reminder. This is a debate board and if you are looking for everyone to just agree and not challenge you, you arein the wrong forum.
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  #60  
March 24th, 2012, 07:19 PM
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