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Treyvon Martin Situation


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  #61  
March 31st, 2012, 11:56 AM
*Leslie*'s Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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We do need to know the why and we do need to know the exact things that happened that night. That has a whole lot to do with how we charge and punish. If the past of one matters, then the past of both matters to an extent, because of the sketchy circumstances and now knowing exactly what happened. Also, you are pointing out that TM was unarmed, that is true, but how was Zimmerman to know that? Maybe he acted like he was armed, we really don't know.

Again, I think his actions were extreme and he absolutely needs to be charged with something. I just don't think we have enough facts to know what he should be charged with. I agree with you about the reason of racism being irrelevant. I don't believe in charging hate crimes any differently than other crimes.
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  #62  
March 31st, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frackel View Post

I said earlier in the thread the whole race thing wouldn't make much of a difference to me, one way, or the other. I still very strongly stand behind that. It really wouldn't matter to me if it WAS a racial issue, or not. Because my main focus is on what actually happened, not what we can speculate happened. We do know some things, based on the reports and obviously the 911 recordings. We do clearly know the man was told not to pursue, yet chose to ignore. We do know that this act alone can, and quite often does, escalate an event to a level it may not have reached otherwise. That was mistake number one.
To the bold, no, we don't know that as there are conflicting stories. Some people are concluding that based on early news reports but other publications state that Zimmerman told the police that he was on his way back to his vehicle when told to stand down. So whether he ignored the police or not, we can only speculate at this point in time. And from there on, we still don't know. All we know is that a 17 year old is dead and there are a lot of unanswered questions.

I'm on team Leslie. It does "seem" that Zimmerman behaved in a very extreme manner and that he should be charged with something.
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  #63  
March 31st, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Actually, we do know he did pursue, and was told not to. That's by his own account, which he's never refuted.

Quote:
On Feb. 26, when Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon, he called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.
That's from the above link, but that particular part is all over most of the reports we've seen/heard. It was reported by police as well. That's a piece of information that hasn't changed since the beginning.

The conflicting part would be whether or not the boy actually did attack the man, and where.
Personally I still say even IF he did(again, sorry, something I seriously doubt at this point), the attack would not have been unprovoked. I am not saying that IF the attack actually did happen as the man says, that the boy did was right. Because, I wouldn't think that, I don't find attacking another person right if they aren't physically harming you or another. I'm just saying, it wasn't unprovoked in the least, if I were to believe the man's side.
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  #64  
March 31st, 2012, 06:40 PM
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Not sure your point. What I said was that we do not know if Z continued to follow TM after being told not to. Some news accounts suggest that according to the police report, Z stated he stopped and was returning to his vehicle.. the question is not whether he followed the boy but if he stood down when told, and we just do not know.
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  #65  
March 31st, 2012, 07:04 PM
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My point was we aren't speculating about whether or not he followed the boy, to begin with. That very action, led to everything else.

Even if people were to believe this man's current story, which is...
That he saw someone he believed to be suspicious, called it in to the police, and proceeded to follow said suspicious person. When asked by the operator if he was following the young man, his reply was yes, and the operator told him he didn't need to. At some point in his pursuit, he lost sight of the young man and walked back to his vehicle. He then says the young man attacked him from behind, near his vehicle. The altercation ended in him feeling he needed to not only draw his weapon, but use it, against this young man.
That's the man's story, in a nutshell. Aside from the whole "he came at me by my SUV" part, it's been what he's said since his first interview.

Taking only that info into account, all of which came from him and no other person, we can clearly see the entire scenario began the moment he decided to follow someone. Had he not made that choice, none of what transpired after this, would have happened.

I can see what you're debating/discussing is whether or not he stopped following the boy the moment he was told to, or not. But since even he does not state that, I find it highly unlikely he stopped right at that moment. Especially since he went on to say he "eventually lost sight", which came after his statement about being told not to follow him. That's a pretty reasonable conclusion going purely by the man's own statements. But that's probably just a point we'll disagree on.

The boy isn't here to make his own statement, so, we can't use that as a comparison point.
I'm simply using only what the man has said to be and what we can find as reasonable conclusions based entirely on that. Trying to ignore most of the other reports, because a lot of them are conflicting, on all sorts of points. I find it annoying, lol.

Of course, I can't say I honestly believe those to be the exact events as they transpired, but that's because I have an awful lot of doubt in the man. But there are some pieces of the puzzle that are pretty straightforward, I think. One of them is the series of initial events-which he's never changed once, and neither has anyone else.
For me, the biggest piece, and most important, is that he made one wrong choice which had a series of effects. So I believe the entire responsibility of what transpired after making that choice, sits on his shoulders.
I just can't believe he would have said it, and that part not been true, since it paints him in a very terrible light. I think if he were going to lie(and my personal opinion is, he did) it wouldn't be about something that makes people believe he's solely responsible. I don't think he'd intentionally mark himself as the criminal, since he quite clearly believes he did no wrong. So I have to take at least that part of his statements, as truth.(well I feel like I do)
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  #66  
March 31st, 2012, 08:22 PM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I'm not going to speculate more than I already have as there are just too many conflicting stories out there at this point. I do know that the whole thing has turned into a circus with many people using it to further their own agendas which I find absolutely disgusting.
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  #67  
April 1st, 2012, 08:59 AM
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Ok, so to you, Frackel, him following is the sticking point. All other things that happened after that aren't really relevant because it started with him doing something wrong. I can't buy into that. If he walked back to his car when told and was then attacked, wasn't TM doing the exact things that Zimmerman was following him for in the first place (thinking he was up to no good). Following someone does not give that person the right to retaliate with physical violence (if he did). I'm not saying that doing that makes you deserving of getting shot, but I think the real facts of this case are very necessary in moving forward.
One thing that really bugs me is this: Why would someone who intends to kill someone call 911? I think there are a lot of things missing that we , unfortunately, may never know.
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  #68  
April 1st, 2012, 09:32 AM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
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Where on earth did you get that I think anything else that occurred doesn't matter?
There is a difference between saying if he hadn't followed the boy none of it would have happened(what I actually said), and saying that because he followed the boy nothing else matters(which I did not say). It all, as in the actual events, matters. I wouldn't say it didn't. There are some things the media as well as others are bringing up that I don't personally feel has much relevance to the actual case, and isn't helping matters any. But the actual events of the night, from start to finish, all matter.

I don't think the man went out with intent to kill. I think he went out with the intent to "catch" someone he considered suspicious doing something wrong. At least that's my impression. Whether or not he had a racial motivation, I don't honestly think his goal was to kill the kid. Though going out armed, you always know there is a possibility you can cause harm. So I won't say he was ignorant to the possibility of hurting him if he felt it warranted.
I also don't believe he would have called 911 if his intent was to kill. Just like I don't believe he's lying when he said they told him not to follow, yet he continued until he lost sight and then walked back to his SUV. Both of those things would paint him in a pretty bad light, something I don't think he'd do to himself. Most people aren't going to lie, or in this case rat their own self out(by calling 911, with full intent to commit a crime himself), just to put themselves in the position of being the bad guy. I would think if someone is going to lie, it would be to paint their own self better, not worse.
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  #69  
April 1st, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frackel View Post
Where on earth did you get that I think anything else that occurred doesn't matter?
There is a difference between saying if he hadn't followed the boy none of it would have happened(what I actually said), and saying that because he followed the boy nothing else matters(which I did not say). It all, as in the actual events, matters. I wouldn't say it didn't. There are some things the media as well as others are bringing up that I don't personally feel has much relevance to the actual case, and isn't helping matters any. But the actual events of the night, from start to finish, all matter.

I don't think the man went out with intent to kill. I think he went out with the intent to "catch" someone he considered suspicious doing something wrong. At least that's my impression. Whether or not he had a racial motivation, I don't honestly think his goal was to kill the kid. Though going out armed, you always know there is a possibility you can cause harm. So I won't say he was ignorant to the possibility of hurting him if he felt it warranted.
I also don't believe he would have called 911 if his intent was to kill. Just like I don't believe he's lying when he said they told him not to follow, yet he continued until he lost sight and then walked back to his SUV. Both of those things would paint him in a pretty bad light, something I don't think he'd do to himself. Most people aren't going to lie, or in this case rat their own self out(by calling 911, with full intent to commit a crime himself), just to put themselves in the position of being the bad guy. I would think if someone is going to lie, it would be to paint their own self better, not worse.
This quote:
Quote:
For me, the biggest piece, and most important, is that he made one wrong choice which had a series of effects. So I believe the entire responsibility of what transpired after making that choice, sits on his shoulders.
gave me the impression that regardless of how or why, you think he is solely responsible and should be held accountable for what happened from start to finish, regardless of the things that happened in between. Actually, a number of your comments insinuate that he is 100% at fault because of his initial actions, making the other things moot.
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  #70  
April 1st, 2012, 04:04 PM
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I do believe every single event that occurred only did so because of his initial actions. Which is what I said. If he hadn't made one wrong choice(imo), none of it would have happened.

So yes, as I said, that particular piece of information does matter more than others. That doesn't mean other pieces don't matter at all though. I said, for me, that piece is very important, the most important. It's the one event(preventable, and 100% unnecessary event) that set off a chain of events, and it lead to another person's death. I can't believe otherwise based solely on the bits of information we actually know are true.

I did also state that if the boy did attack him, the way that he's stating, that wouldn't be right either. I don't support attacking someone who isn't causing you harm. Yes if the boy attacked him, the boy would be responsible for his own actions as well. I just don't believe an attack would have happened at all(if it did), if the man hadn't been following the boy. I also don't know if that event even happened. So how can I put responsibility on the shoulders of someone(the boy) based off one bit of information that absolutely no one can prove? I can't put responsibility for anything on his shoulders without knowing it's true. That's why I said if.

The man's initial actions, we know are true, he's stated it, as have authorities. It's one bit of information that has never once changed. It's a pretty straight forward set of events. It's after he loses sight of the boy that the info gets sketchy and unreliable.
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  #71  
April 5th, 2012, 10:18 AM
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Team Leslie.
I think this isn't about race on GZ's part. I think he would have done this for anyone he thought looked suspicious to him.
I'm pretty upset that the media is turning this into a massive race thing. This country is divided enough already. Calling GZ a "white Hispanic" is only throwing fuel on the fire. He identifies himself as Hispanic, and looking at him a person would think he's Hispanic. But throwing "white" in there just makes the story juicier.
I'm disgusted that NBC edited the 911 tapes to make it sound like GZ said TM looks like he's up to no good because he's black, when really he said "he looks black" because the 911 operator asked him.

This story is screwed up, and we're only being fed the tidbits that biased media sources want us to have. Al Sharpton is as happy as pig in ***** right now that people are blaming this all on race.
In my opinion it sounds to be like GZ was over zealous as a self appointed community watch captain, but without knowing ALL the details I can't say he needs to be charged with murder or anything else.
We, as the general public, probably won't ever know the truth.
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  #72  
April 7th, 2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfire_ga79 View Post
Team Leslie.
I think this isn't about race on GZ's part. I think he would have done this for anyone he thought looked suspicious to him.
I'm pretty upset that the media is turning this into a massive race thing. This country is divided enough already. Calling GZ a "white Hispanic" is only throwing fuel on the fire. He identifies himself as Hispanic, and looking at him a person would think he's Hispanic. But throwing "white" in there just makes the story juicier.
I'm disgusted that NBC edited the 911 tapes to make it sound like GZ said TM looks like he's up to no good because he's black, when really he said "he looks black" because the 911 operator asked him.

This story is screwed up, and we're only being fed the tidbits that biased media sources want us to have. Al Sharpton is as happy as pig in ***** right now that people are blaming this all on race.
In my opinion it sounds to be like GZ was over zealous as a self appointed community watch captain, but without knowing ALL the details I can't say he needs to be charged with murder or anything else.
We, as the general public, probably won't ever know the truth.
I just read that the producer at NBC was fired for editing the 911 tape.
NBC Fires Producer in Flap Over Manipulated 911 Call in Trayvon Martin Case - The Hollywood Reporter
Quote:
The offending segment aired on NBC’s Today show March 27 but went widely unnoticed until it was highlighted by conservative outlets such as the Media Research Center and Breitbart.com.
Also cnn has enhanced the audio tape again and the racial slur sounds a little different now.
George Zimmerman's 911 call: Audio enhanced – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs

Anyway, I agree with the rest of your post, the case is being looked at again and if Z is guilty of murder, he needs to face consequences.
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  #73  
April 7th, 2012, 09:47 AM
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So they're saying he said f word ing cold?

I'd never have thought it was that. It sounded like f word ing goon to me.
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  #74  
April 7th, 2012, 03:41 PM
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Can I ask a serious question?

Why is this case such a big deal when there is black on black crime daily with senseless murders every hour of every day? Why is it when a supposed "white" person kills a black person is there an outcry? an investigation? Al and Jessie crying out to the masses for unrest? why not the same for when a black person kills another black person? Does the white person only add value to the killing then?

Can anyone answer that for me?
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  #75  
April 8th, 2012, 05:04 AM
*Leslie*'s Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaB View Post
Can I ask a serious question?

Why is this case such a big deal when there is black on black crime daily with senseless murders every hour of every day? Why is it when a supposed "white" person kills a black person is there an outcry? an investigation? Al and Jessie crying out to the masses for unrest? why not the same for when a black person kills another black person? Does the white person only add value to the killing then?

Can anyone answer that for me?
While the media has made this a black/white issue, the heart of the issue stands that we have a teen murdered and no one has been held accountable for it. The vast majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by the same race as the victim, the difference is that those people don't seem to "get away with murder". If Zimmerman had been put in jail and set to be tried for murder, this wouldn't have received near the outcry. That issue right there is central to the case. As it stands, it provides a perfect platform for activists (and I use that term loosely) to cling to.
It seems a lot of people are clinging to the, "why does this matter when black on black crime rates are much higher than others". To many, this is a story of injustice. The media is making it black v. white which is causing all the controversy. The left and right are doing their fair share to slant everything the way they want it seen. Conservative stations appear to still be covering the story, but focusing more on what they perceive as wrongdoings (exploitation) rather than the heart of the matter. The left is guilty of pushing the race agenda, which in turn pushes the majority race to feel as if they are being lumped into the racist category for asking legitimate questions about the case, wanting to get both sides while the minority side seems to see it as cut and dry. This only pushes back race relations and both sides are a detriment at this point.
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  #76  
April 8th, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Like I said early on, my issues with this case have nothing at all to do with race.

As a matter of fact, I typically pay race no mind, even if it WAS a crime committed solely based on race.Which probably sounds odd, and I'm not even certain I can explain it.

My personal issue with this case, is a grown man who decided to get power happy, made one wrong decision, which triggered a trail of preventable events that lead to the death of another person. I take more issue with the fact that the actual victim, is a minor, than the fact that he is of a different race.

As for why others are making a racial issue out of it? That's nothing new. It happens all the time, and I can't imagine it changing anytime soon. I don't much care what any big shot thinks, or says, as far as this sort of thing is concerned. I am more concerned with what actually happened and not what other idiots(and yes, I consider a great many of those making this case what it has become publicly, idiots) think about a race-on-race crime.
There will always be people who make something about something it isn't. I can't do squat about that, and neither can anyone else. They gain more momentum the more people feed into it though. Which is why I choose to ignore their personal issues with an event, and focus on the actual event(s) that transpired rather than the potential/possible motivation someone assumes fed into it(them).
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  #77  
April 9th, 2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaB View Post
Can I ask a serious question?

Why is this case such a big deal when there is black on black crime daily with senseless murders every hour of every day? Why is it when a supposed "white" person kills a black person is there an outcry? an investigation? Al and Jessie crying out to the masses for unrest? why not the same for when a black person kills another black person? Does the white person only add value to the killing then?

Can anyone answer that for me?
As it was said, the media and outsiders made it a black/white thing. But, for cases like this that could truly be hate crimes, history makes it a big deal. There have been way too many cases throughout history that have gone ignored and swept under the rug simply because of color. So when it happens in today's day and age, people who are "activist" begin shouting for justice.
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  #78  
April 9th, 2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
As it was said, the media and outsiders made it a black/white thing. But, for cases like this that could truly be hate crimes, history makes it a big deal. There have been way too many cases throughout history that have gone ignored and swept under the rug simply because of color. So when it happens in today's day and age, people who are "activist" begin shouting for justice.

I get that but as shown in the Tulsa, OK shootings this past weekend (I think race was an issue), the murderers were quickly rounded up and are being charged.

We don't know everything that happened with the Trayvon case and I am pretty sure that the police would LOVE to charge him with something just to get that monkey off their back. Maybe he just didn't do anything that is chargable? Is everyone going to accept it if he isn't charged?
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  #79  
April 9th, 2012, 11:47 AM
K.A.T's Avatar Enjoying her Sticky Bun
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To be honest, Gina, I doubt it. The "activist" are not going to shut up until someone pays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaB View Post
I get that but as shown in the Tulsa, OK shootings this past weekend (I think race was an issue), the murderers were quickly rounded up and are being charged.

We don't know everything that happened with the Trayvon case and I am pretty sure that the police would LOVE to charge him with something just to get that monkey off their back. Maybe he just didn't do anything that is chargable? Is everyone going to accept it if he isn't charged?
Also, maybe because something has been done, no one is going to shout for justice. You usually see this sort of reaction when nothing gets done or people feel the police are dragging their feet.
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  #80  
April 9th, 2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GinaB View Post
I get that but as shown in the Tulsa, OK shootings this past weekend (I think race was an issue), the murderers were quickly rounded up and are being charged.

We don't know everything that happened with the Trayvon case and I am pretty sure that the police would LOVE to charge him with something just to get that monkey off their back. Maybe he just didn't do anything that is chargable? Is everyone going to accept it if he isn't charged?
No, too many minds are already made up. I don't know if Z is guilty or innocent but even if he was justified, there will be people who don't believe it...even if there is proof. Right now there are so many people who are behaving with a mob mentality by demanding Z be arrested, calling for his murder, shutting down the Sanford police dept., etc... My prediction is that these are the type of people who will riot if Z is not charged.
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