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Debate: Surrogacy.... do you agree with it? yes/no; why/why not? (NO semantics)


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  #21  
March 25th, 2012, 08:48 PM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
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There are people who post here that I will openly admit, I may not like at all times. But, I will also say that it's only their forum persona, or things they've said...since I don't really know any of them beyond what I've seen here(that is, JM in general). It's not that I hate anyone(not fond of that word in general, really), or seriously dislike, either. I surely don't like all of the opinions and comments I've seen here. But I can still debate and discuss with people, even if I have, at times, been at the opposite end of their opinion. I'm quite certain they're not all too fond of me at times either. That's life.

It's not difficult to debate and discuss with people you don't always agree with. There have been some pretty good knock down verbal brawls here over the years with some pretty nasty back and forthing going on....yet those women(I think I've only ever seen a couple of men post here, sorry fellas, you're a minority) still mange discussing and debating. They even agree at times with those very same people.
You have to stick around for a while to see it though. Just popping in here and there, or taking a small segment of the posts won't really give you a very accurate read of what this board is like, or can be like.

I know there are some who believe that some posters are simply hated, no matter what, or that when we disagree with them we just HAVE to dislike them no matter what. But I honestly don't believe that's the case. Not even in the case of Amy, lol.
I don't personally let my feelings about someone's opinion on one thing jade how I feel about their opinion on the next topic. I haven't met a poster here yet who does that all of the time. Though sometimes two things do end up going hand in hand, and I might disagree with them on both things.

Some people are simply remembered for their actions/words, more than others. Just as some statements stand out more than others. Hence, why on occasion, they are brought up(both the people, and the comments made). Some things are just more memorable.
But mentioning them in no way always indicates a dislike, or hatred towards them. To be honest that one name is usually brought up in a comedic fashion, anyway. Some just like to pretend it was always a "let's get her" sort of deal, when it really wasn't, at all.
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  #22  
March 25th, 2012, 08:51 PM
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^Thank you Bittybugsmama

Really, I stopped posting on Just Mommy's because every time I would read things, this includes in playrooms, once a person has been 'tagged' that was it for them. Nothing they said or did mattered anymore, they were targeted.
But for my sister being directed here, I wouldn't even bother posting, but I really get irritated when people act so 'holier than thou' and then try to cover it up by saying that the surrogates are acting this way. Nothing my sister said made her appear as if she felt better than anyone else, nor did anything I read here, indicate the other surrogates felt this way either.

This is why I feel people are judging for a different reason, not necessarily even the fact that these girls are even surrogates. And bringing up names of women who don't post here? I never could see the point in that. How are those women allowed to defend themselves? That's just a low blow when someone doesn't have anything else to say.
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  #23  
March 25th, 2012, 09:06 PM
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If you don't know Amy then you don't understand. How can you have an opinion on something you don't know anything about?

lol. Seriously. Get over it and just talk about surrogacy. Nobody cares if anyone is here to "defend" themselves. And it's really a joke. Apparently a joke you don't get. That's also okay since we do debate with each other and know each other (some of us) pretty well.
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  #24  
March 25th, 2012, 09:12 PM
peace.love.audrey's Avatar Twins? Pinch me!
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  #25  
March 25th, 2012, 09:50 PM
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I'm still confused over who your sister is? I must of missed someone being directed here and the holier than thou attitude too.
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  #26  
March 26th, 2012, 01:55 AM
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I posted this thread because I didn't want to get hung up on "words". I only want to know your opinions or ??s about surrogacy (those who are not involved) and why you have them. If there are other surrogates who can shed some light on things for you, why is that a bad thing?

I saw that Adrianna quoted her sister's post (which was totally missed, btw, along with an intended mother's post) on the other thread.
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  #27  
March 26th, 2012, 02:26 AM
Frackel's Avatar DOh!
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Some may have missed it, but I doubt everyone did.

I read just about every post on this board, have for a long, long time, but I don't reply to even 1/4 of them. I bet there are probably others, who do the same. I don't know anyone here who responds to everything, lol.

Some people may label another poster as this, that, or the other, and forever throw them under the bus, but that's not the case for everyone. There are people on JM who can act like grownups sometimes and not let our opinions on something someone has said(or done) reflect in our every response to them. This board is a pretty darn good example of that, if you stick around, you'll see that. They can argue til the cows come home here, but those arguments don't often pour into other threads, unless related. Read through some of the more current threads and you'll see examples of it. People who disagree wholeheartedly, may even have a few choice words here and there, yet in the next topic they discuss as if whatever argument was in the previous topic, never existed.
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  #28  
March 26th, 2012, 07:45 AM
K.A.T's Avatar Enjoying her Sticky Bun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
I'm still confused over who your sister is? I must of missed someone being directed here and the holier than thou attitude too.
I think the "holier than thou" is my fault. However, I never said anyone was doing it here, only that those who do it need to get off their high horses. So, color me confuddled. Then again, if people are taking a general statement I said to heart, it could be a guilty mind. Just sayin...
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  #29  
March 26th, 2012, 01:03 PM
fluffycheeks's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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To be honest, I don't really think about surrogacy in my day-to-day life. I will never be on either side of it, so I don't have much of an opinion. I guess I'm glad that the option is out there for people who need it though.
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  #30  
March 28th, 2012, 06:36 AM
Lex&angels's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I'm going to reply here. I know I don't post very often on the debate board, but I do read a lot of the threads. I often don't see the need to chime in if someone else is doing a good job already expressing the way I see things. I read the whole other thread.

I have no trouble at all with surrogates: those who are doing it for money (and they do exist, perhaps there are not very many of them in the USA, but I have seen some very disturbing and heartbreaking stories about surrogates in India...) are just doing what they can to stay alive and feed their families. Those who are doing it out of love for a family member or a friend who cannot have children obviously could not be condemned for that. Those who seem to have more complex motives, with a true desire to help people, even people they don't know, but who do want some form of compensation are also deserving of respect and I do not judge them although I am a bit puzzled by it. I couldn't do it. I can see myself in an alternate life, extremely poor, with essentially a choice between surrogacy, prostitution or starvation, choosing surrogacy. I can see myself in an alternate life, with a sister or best friend who cannot have kids and being a fertile myrtle myself, considering carrying their child as an act of love for them. I can't see myself doing it for monetary compensation I do not need for someone I did not know previously. But that's me, and not everyone is me. I can respect and understand that.

What I have a harder time with, and this is the reason I'm posting, beause I didn't see this expressed anywhere here or in the other thread, is the couples who go through surrogacy. But I have personally been faced with thinking about other family-building options, given that every single one of my pregnancies has ended in miscarriage, except this one which is still new and fragile (and I am hoping it will be different this time!). I cannot really see the appeal of it. You don't get to experience pregnancy and birth for yourself, you're creating a situation where a woman will have to surrender a child she has carried for 9 months to you. In the best of cases, she had a choice in this and counselling, so it will often go well and she will be fine, but it may not be easy on her other children, her family and friends, and I still can't imagine it's easy for her or her husband. You're creating a situation where the child will be seperated at birth from the woman he or she has known and grown to be attached to. You're creating a situation with a high potential for hurt feelings. With adoption, the "damage" is already done, in cases where it is done morally. The biological parents could not care for the child for whatever reason, a child needs parents, that's where you step in. You are not responsible for creating that situation (barring disgusting cases where trafficking was involved and a few other situations I do not want to get into now because it's another debate altogether)
Is taking all of those risks, paying all of that money, going through all of that heartbreak and knowing you are partly responsible for anything that could go wrong down the line worth it in the end just to have a baby that looks like you?
Perhaps what it comes down to is that I see genetics as the least important part of parenting.

I suppose if I had to classify the importance of various elements involved in the creation of a new human being, this is how I'd do it:

actually parenting the child and raising him or her >>>>>>> giving birth to a child >>>> being genetically related to a child

That's also why I'd donate my eggs in a heartbeat, free of charge (because receiving compensation for egg donation is illegal in France), if I had any reason to believe anyone would want my eggs, which very well may be at fault for my miscarriages. No doctor here would accept them for that reason anyway. But I would.
I realize not everyone feels the same way I do about it. I just see some huge moral issues with using surrogacy, especially if adoption is an option for you. I have much less of an issue with it if no money is exchanged and it is done for a best friend or a sister, because the baby can have a close special relationship with the surrogate and if done well, I feel like the potential for abuse, hurt and exploitation is much more limited. I still wouldn't do it, though (my mom offered), but that's me, and I also care about respecting the law of the land.
I can understand why it is still illegal in France and I support that. I harshly judge any French person who tries to get around this law by going to India or the USA (or any other country), because if they get caught, everyone gets hurt badly (there have been several cases).
If you are being a surrogate for someone, your body, your choice, but please make sure that you're not doing it for someone for whom it would normally be illegal. You're opening yourself, the intended parents and the child up for a world of hurt.
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  #31  
March 28th, 2012, 06:58 AM
MindyRambo's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex&angels View Post
I'm going to reply here. I know I don't post very often on the debate board, but I do read a lot of the threads. I often don't see the need to chime in if someone else is doing a good job already expressing the way I see things. I read the whole other thread.

I have no trouble at all with surrogates: those who are doing it for money (and they do exist, perhaps there are not very many of them in the USA, but I have seen some very disturbing and heartbreaking stories about surrogates in India...) are just doing what they can to stay alive and feed their families. Those who are doing it out of love for a family member or a friend who cannot have children obviously could not be condemned for that. Those who seem to have more complex motives, with a true desire to help people, even people they don't know, but who do want some form of compensation are also deserving of respect and I do not judge them although I am a bit puzzled by it. I couldn't do it. I can see myself in an alternate life, extremely poor, with essentially a choice between surrogacy, prostitution or starvation, choosing surrogacy. I can see myself in an alternate life, with a sister or best friend who cannot have kids and being a fertile myrtle myself, considering carrying their child as an act of love for them. I can't see myself doing it for monetary compensation I do not need for someone I did not know previously. But that's me, and not everyone is me. I can respect and understand that.

What I have a harder time with, and this is the reason I'm posting, beause I didn't see this expressed anywhere here or in the other thread, is the couples who go through surrogacy. But I have personally been faced with thinking about other family-building options, given that every single one of my pregnancies has ended in miscarriage, except this one which is still new and fragile (and I am hoping it will be different this time!). I cannot really see the appeal of it. You don't get to experience pregnancy and birth for yourself, you're creating a situation where a woman will have to surrender a child she has carried for 9 months to you. In the best of cases, she had a choice in this and counselling, so it will often go well and she will be fine, but it may not be easy on her other children, her family and friends, and I still can't imagine it's easy for her or her husband. You're creating a situation where the child will be seperated at birth from the woman he or she has known and grown to be attached to. You're creating a situation with a high potential for hurt feelings. With adoption, the "damage" is already done, in cases where it is done morally. The biological parents could not care for the child for whatever reason, a child needs parents, that's where you step in. You are not responsible for creating that situation (barring disgusting cases where trafficking was involved and a few other situations I do not want to get into now because it's another debate altogether)
Is taking all of those risks, paying all of that money, going through all of that heartbreak and knowing you are partly responsible for anything that could go wrong down the line worth it in the end just to have a baby that looks like you?
Perhaps what it comes down to is that I see genetics as the least important part of parenting.


I suppose if I had to classify the importance of various elements involved in the creation of a new human being, this is how I'd do it:

actually parenting the child and raising him or her >>>>>>> giving birth to a child >>>> being genetically related to a child

That's also why I'd donate my eggs in a heartbeat, free of charge (because receiving compensation for egg donation is illegal in France), if I had any reason to believe anyone would want my eggs, which very well may be at fault for my miscarriages. No doctor here would accept them for that reason anyway. But I would.
I realize not everyone feels the same way I do about it. I just see some huge moral issues with using surrogacy, especially if adoption is an option for you. I have much less of an issue with it if no money is exchanged and it is done for a best friend or a sister, because the baby can have a close special relationship with the surrogate and if done well, I feel like the potential for abuse, hurt and exploitation is much more limited. I still wouldn't do it, though (my mom offered), but that's me, and I also care about respecting the law of the land.
I can understand why it is still illegal in France and I support that. I harshly judge any French person who tries to get around this law by going to India or the USA (or any other country), because if they get caught, everyone gets hurt badly (there have been several cases).
If you are being a surrogate for someone, your body, your choice, but please make sure that you're not doing it for someone for whom it would normally be illegal. You're opening yourself, the intended parents and the child up for a world of hurt.
Very excellent and interesting post. It would seem to me that when people talk about adoption, they say that genetics really doesn't matter, blood isn't thicker than water, and that being biologically related to a child doesn't matter to them. But then people would rather create a child that is biologically related to them, than to give a home to a child that already exists and needs a family. That leads me to believe it's ingrained in us to pass on our genetics and that some people aren't being truthful when they say genetics don't matter.

I would say considering how many children languish in foster care, it cannot be denied that people would rather have bio kids. Especially when it costs very little to adopt foster children than to pursue costly IVF and fertility treatments. *This is just an observation, not a dig at anyone* It is what it is. Plus people prefer newborns, that cannot be denied.
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  #32  
March 28th, 2012, 07:07 AM
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Thought I should also add that I actually think it's a good thing that people who don't believe they could love a non bio child don't adopt, just as someone who doesn't think they could part with a baby they carried isn't a good candidate for surrogacy.

It is better to admit your bias/ingrained thinking/perceived shortcomings than to have a child suffer for it later on.

Google adoptees and genetic mirroring for an interesting read.

I'm not sure If I've told this story here before, but I have a friend who is an adoptee, and she had a baby recently. She told me she was totally unprepared to look down at her baby and for the first time in her life to see someone who was actually related to her. Someone she could look into the mirror and see her features in. It wasn't until this point she realized she was denying looking for her birthparents because she kept telling herself genetics don't matter.

Nature vs. Nurture, one of the greatest debates you can have
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Last edited by MindyRambo; March 28th, 2012 at 07:12 AM.
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  #33  
March 28th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Lex&angels's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MindyRambo View Post
Thought I should also add that I actually think it's a good thing that people who don't believe they could love a non bio child don't adopt, just as someone who doesn't think they could part with a baby they carried isn't a good candidate for surrogacy.

It is better to admit your bias/ingrained thinking/perceived shortcomings than to have a child suffer for it later on.

Google adoptees and genetic mirroring for an interesting read.

I'm not sure If I've told this story here before, but I have a friend who is an adoptee, and she had a baby recently. She told me she was totally unprepared to look down at her baby and for the first time in her life to see someone who was actually related to her. Someone she could look into the mirror and see her features in. It wasn't until this point she realized she was denying looking for her birthparents because she kept telling herself genetics don't matter.

Nature vs. Nurture, one of the greatest debates you can have
I completely agree and I can understand feeling that way. Your adoptee friend's reaction is apparantly quite common, I have read about it in several books and on adoption forums. I don't understand being unable to love a child not biologically related to you, which is a good thing I guess since we are going to adopt a child! I definitely wouldn't want someone unable to love an adopted child just as much adopting anyway!
However I am not convinced that not being able to overcome those feelings justifies bringing a child into the world in a way that has the potential to hurt a lot of people, especially if done in a way that borders on exploitation of another human being (going to India...).

As we were told again and again in our adoption classes, nobody has the right to a child. Becoming a parent isn't a fundamental right.
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  #34  
April 14th, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Surrogacy is illegal in Australia as far as I know, but I know that I couldn't do it anyway. I hated being pregnant and giving birth.

Now with that said, I think what you did is absolutely amazing <3
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