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  #21  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:27 PM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frackel View Post
A gun that is safely secured, as in, locked, unloaded,ammo not near the gun, is no more a second line of defense than your own hands, or any other object you could easily pick up, for most people. Most people, even trained, aren't going to be able to get to the weapon, get to the ammo, load the weapon, and fire off a shot before something happens-all too often, something fatal.
That is true to a certain extent. That is why you need a plan in place for the different scenarios that could occur that would require you to get your gun out in a home invasion situation. I already have scenarios laid out in my mind for any type of situation that would require me to get my gun out or my husband's gun out - which are kept on different floors of the house. It would take me at max, 30 - 60 seconds to get access to either gun, load it and be ready to fire it. Its all about having things laid out so that you are able to get to your weapon and having enough training to know what to do in those situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
I have not, outside of law enforcement there are essentially no CCW's in NJ. I have, however, been trained on weapons in the military and disagree a billion times over that instinct and ONE training course will have any effect with the outcome of a persons ability to manage themselves along with a weapon in a fight or flight situation. Especially based upon your opinion that "it doesn't take much" training. It takes constant consistent training to learn and keep the ability to navigate oneself through a high stress situation where there is (a) person(s) shooting others and how to discern the assailant from others who are attempting to protect themselves.
I said it doesn't take much to learn how to use your handgun, not that it doesn't take much training to learn how to navigate through certain situations. I believe a lot of it is instinct, and with that instinct I would include the ability to make rational decisions in a high stress situation and being able to keep yourself calm in a high stress situation.
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  #22  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:40 PM
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I don't think you need a permit to carry in your own home, but keep in mind that this law JUST passed in WI, so going out, even to your 'own' sidewalk made a big difference like 6 months ago. As long as you lawfully owed the weapon you could always carry it holster old western style out in the open though! Of course that opens a whole new can of worms because you know **** well someone wouldn't like seeing you carry a gun out in the open and would call the police claiming you brandished it at them etc. Of course the law is going to side with the person who didn't have the weapon out at the time.

Also, even in the case of where there are well trained gun carriers IE police in a no gun zone at the time, look how long it takes even THEM to respond, and how many people can be wounded/killed in the time it takes the well trained to do what they need to do with their weapon. Example being court room shootings. In some cases the person was even able to get close enough to a judge or other person to stab them before an officer in the room responded. I agree that just some joe schmo playing hero may not make much of a difference in a situation where someone goes off the deepend.
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  #23  
April 3rd, 2012, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
I said it doesn't take much to learn how to use your handgun, not that it doesn't take much training to learn how to navigate through certain situations. I believe a lot of it is instinct, and with that instinct I would include the ability to make rational decisions in a high stress situation and being able to keep yourself calm in a high stress situation.
So then using your instincts, which one of these men has been confirmed to have killed 48 people? If all three were brandishing a weapon would you be able honestly say in less than a second who the killer is?

A:
B:
C:

Those who deal with high pressure life and death situations on a regular basis train ALL.THE.TIME for it so they can be prepared regardless of how often they deal with it in real life. It's a bit naive to think you, as a non trained non professional, could even begin to know how you would react in a life and death situation. Overcoming your natural flight or fight instinct is not nearly as easy as you may think it is.
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  #24  
April 3rd, 2012, 04:19 PM
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What part of my explanation of instincts did I say involved picking a serial killer out of a crowd? If I had three guys brandishing weapons and I was armed, I'd call the police and stay out of the way. If they started approaching me, then I would shoot when I felt threatened.

You are talking about people who live in high pressure, life and death situations on a daily basis and their need for constant training. I am talking about my ability to stay rational, calm and collected in the event of a home invasion. You are trying to compare apples to oranges and they just are not the same thing. I know what I would do to protect my husband and my children in the event of a home invasion and I have absolutely no doubt that I could protect them if I needed to. When it comes to a mama bear protecting her cubs, she will stop at nothing to protect them and that is exactly how I would react with a person invading my home. I think its a bit naive on your part to think without daily, weekly or even monthly training, someone would be unable to protect themselves and / or their family with a handgun if need be.
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  #25  
April 3rd, 2012, 05:35 PM
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I agree Alicia. If you take the time to prepare, practice and set plans, you can protect your family in a life or death situation. I HAVE been in the position before when someone was trying to come in my home and I used my shotgun to deter him. Me and my daughter's life was in danger and you **** right, I will use them to protect my kids. DH and I have prepared before that happened. He is a Marine and we have done defense training together. I am just a SAHM but I can protect my family. People that are scared of guns should not own one. People that don't bother to train, learn etc, should not own a gun. They are the ones that get others killed.

People can know what they are going to do in a situation. I did. I locked my DD in my room. I stood outside of the door of the room. The man started to come in my sliding glass doors. I racked my slide on the shotgun and the look on his face was priceless. I warned him I had a gun and if he came near me, I would use it. He started to come towards me. I pointed it at him and said to him again, I have a loaded gun and I would kill him if he took another step. He told me to calm down and he would leave. He slowly started to walk backwards and left out the same way he came. The cops got there a few minutes later. I PREPARED for that situation. I prepare ahead of time. I prepare for different situations so when it happens. I know what to do. I can use different techniques for things I have not prepared for. I have the knowledge, confidence and ability to protect my family and I will do it at ALL cost.

It is rediculous to think because you have not had extensive training that you can't be calm cool and rational in a flight or fight situation.
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  #26  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Alicia, you are claiming that you have a natural instinct to be able to handle yourself in a crowded situation if a person brandished a handgun and feel that not only yourself but other innocent people within the crowd should use deadly force as YOU see fit. Now once you and the criminal are no longer the only two holding guns, how do you distinguish friend from foe? Perhaps I need to give you a direct example of a criminal who has committed the EXACT crime you used in your example for you to get what I was trying to show you. My mistake for assuming one would be able to connect A to B.

Also, it is VERY easy to think you know how you'd react in a life threatening situation, regardless if you have any training other than what your spouse has shared from their personal training experience or not. Flight or flight can make a person perceive all activity around them as a threat, it can cause one to freeze (literally a person will be unable to move), or a variety of other unexpected involuntary reactions.


But you must be right. You should give the Pentagon a call and tell them to stop all field exercises with their troops, natural instinct will be enough to guide them through life threatening situations. Hey maybe you could market that, think of the millions of dollars you could make with your 'nope no training needed' philosophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
What part of my explanation of instincts did I say involved picking a serial killer out of a crowd? If I had three guys brandishing weapons and I was armed, I'd call the police and stay out of the way. If they started approaching me, then I would shoot when I felt threatened.

You are talking about people who live in high pressure, life and death situations on a daily basis and their need for constant training. I am talking about my ability to stay rational, calm and collected in the event of a home invasion. You are trying to compare apples to oranges and they just are not the same thing. I know what I would do to protect my husband and my children in the event of a home invasion and I have absolutely no doubt that I could protect them if I needed to. When it comes to a mama bear protecting her cubs, she will stop at nothing to protect them and that is exactly how I would react with a person invading my home. I think its a bit naive on your part to think without daily, weekly or even monthly training, someone would be unable to protect themselves and / or their family with a handgun if need be.
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  #27  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:09 PM
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I must admit, I'm very ignorant when it comes to permits and what not for NY. So I'm going to ask, do you have to get re-certified to maintain your permit, or is it a one shot deal?

Honestly, a one shot deal scares me. Things can happen to a person and make them not as trained or sharp as before. Someone who might have a serious case of post traumatic stress could flip out. Yet, they had a permit for their weapon from before, so now that person has the potential to become a dangerous legal gun owner instead of a well trained and prepared individual. I know it's a lot of what if thinking. But that's what comes to mind for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against allowing people to obtain a legal weapon. I'm just afraid that once those permits are obtained, how well are they monitored? Also, I don't like the idea of people being able to carry a gun to my child's school just to pick up their own kid. I don't know, I guess reading/hearing about so many innocent bystanders getting shot in some sort of shoot out, even those involving police, I get nervous about this issue.
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  #28  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:16 PM
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You are using an example of a home invasion where the perpetrator was clear to you. The OP example is of a gunman in a public area. Apples to oranges. They are not the same thing at all. Unless you live in a school, mall or other public place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
I agree Alicia. If you take the time to prepare, practice and set plans, you can protect your family in a life or death situation. I HAVE been in the position before when someone was trying to come in my home and I used my shotgun to deter him. Me and my daughter's life was in danger and you **** right, I will use them to protect my kids. DH and I have prepared before that happened. He is a Marine and we have done defense training together. I am just a SAHM but I can protect my family. People that are scared of guns should not own one. People that don't bother to train, learn etc, should not own a gun. They are the ones that get others killed.

People can know what they are going to do in a situation. I did. I locked my DD in my room. I stood outside of the door of the room. The man started to come in my sliding glass doors. I racked my slide on the shotgun and the look on his face was priceless. I warned him I had a gun and if he came near me, I would use it. He started to come towards me. I pointed it at him and said to him again, I have a loaded gun and I would kill him if he took another step. He told me to calm down and he would leave. He slowly started to walk backwards and left out the same way he came. The cops got there a few minutes later. I PREPARED for that situation. I prepare ahead of time. I prepare for different situations so when it happens. I know what to do. I can use different techniques for things I have not prepared for. I have the knowledge, confidence and ability to protect my family and I will do it at ALL cost.

It is rediculous to think because you have not had extensive training that you can't be calm cool and rational in a flight or fight situation.
I also want to add I am not against CCW permits. We own weapons and I couldn't give a rat's @ss if others own or carry. I just disagree that if everyone had a weapon it would have a better outcome than if only the perp. had one.
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  #29  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
Alicia, you are claiming that you have a natural instinct to be able to handle yourself in a crowded situation if a person brandished a handgun and feel that not only yourself but other innocent people within the crowd should use deadly force as YOU see fit. Now once you and the criminal are no longer the only two holding guns, how do you distinguish friend from foe? Perhaps I need to give you a direct example of a criminal who has committed the EXACT crime you used in your example for you to get what I was trying to show you. My mistake for assuming one would be able to connect A to B.

Also, it is VERY easy to think you know how you'd react in a life threatening situation, regardless if you have any training other than what your spouse has shared from their personal training experience or not. Flight or flight can make a person perceive all activity around them as a threat, it can cause one to freeze (literally a person will be unable to move), or a variety of other unexpected involuntary reactions.


But you must be right. You should give the Pentagon a call and tell them to stop all field exercises with their troops, natural instinct will be enough to guide them through life threatening situations. Hey maybe you could market that, think of the millions of dollars you could make with your 'nope no training needed' philosophy.
Actually, that is not what I said at all but since you are going to continue putting words in my mouth even after I've pointed out to you that we are talking about two different things, I'm just going to move on.
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  #30  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
To the bolded, not necessarily. If you have a CCW or an FFL license, you are able to purchase weapons without first getting a purchase permit. The FFL is slightly different but it allows you to purchase guns without a permit.

Our guns are all locked up, out of reach from our kids, always unloaded and only taken out for classes, range practice and break ins (if one were to occur). Being fearful of carrying a handgun is normal at first, pretty much everyone struggles with it. If you don't believe me, google the phrase "my walmart timer starts now" and see what you find.

Obviously having a gun increases your risk of being shot, especially if you haven't been properly trained on how to prevent someone else from getting ahold of your gun during a struggle or home invasion. If the attacker doesn't have a gun and gets yours, then your risk of being shot increases. That is just common sense. However, the true numbers can never really be known because its not like an attacker is going to call the police, tell them they broke in your house and you pulled a gun on them.
Yes, you're right. I was being too simplified. I was meaning that in Michigan you do need some type of permit/license to purchase a weapon. I can't just walk into the store and buy a gun right now without anything.

The second bolded I will absolutely agree to as well. There truly is no way of knowing if carrying a gun is making you more susceptible to being shot. There are so many variables! Like you said, are all cases reported? Are people who carry guns more likely to be in areas where they have a higher risk of being shot (hence why they would want to carry)? What about people who carry a gun and are never shot? I honestly don't believe that there will ever be a good answer to this, as there are so many variables!! I was definitely just posting my opinion at the time being. This is definitely an area where we can all find evidence to support our opinion, whatever it is (within reason, of course!).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
Do you have links for those quotes? I would like to check them out. Thanks
Of course I do!

For the Michigan Civil Law:
MSP - Purchasing and Registering a Pistol in Michigan

For the quote on gun carrying being more likely to cause a person to be shot:
Does carrying a gun make you safer? Early research results suggest the opposite | cleveland.com

Now this article actually provides a little evidence on each side of the argument, and the general argument seems to be, like I agreed with BittyBugsMama above, that there really isn't an exact way to measure. Previously, when I quoted it, I had just shared my opinions/feelings (which, as we all know, can definitely change!), and then wanted to share that there is some evidence to support it.
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  #31  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
I must admit, I'm very ignorant when it comes to permits and what not for NY. So I'm going to ask, do you have to get re-certified to maintain your permit, or is it a one shot deal?

Honestly, a one shot deal scares me. Things can happen to a person and make them not as trained or sharp as before. Someone who might have a serious case of post traumatic stress could flip out. Yet, they had a permit for their weapon from before, so now that person has the potential to become a dangerous legal gun owner instead of a well trained and prepared individual. I know it's a lot of what if thinking. But that's what comes to mind for me.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against allowing people to obtain a legal weapon. I'm just afraid that once those permits are obtained, how well are they monitored? Also, I don't like the idea of people being able to carry a gun to my child's school just to pick up their own kid. I don't know, I guess reading/hearing about so many innocent bystanders getting shot in some sort of shoot out, even those involving police, I get nervous about this issue.
Every state has different laws and regulations on CCW permits. Some states don't require them and some don't allow them (as far as I know). Here, you have to renew it every 4 years. The first time you get it, you are fingerprinted, background checked, pay the fee and wait 45 days for the gun board to approve or deny your application. There are some pretty serious restrictions here, I know being on a long term rx for pain meds will disqualify you, you have to have a clean record, etc. If you get arrested or are in any type of altercation with someone, your information is forwarded to the gun board and your license can be revoked.

There is a difference between owning a handgun and concealed carrying. There are very strict laws on where you can and can't CC. For me, I would rather have my child's teacher be able to protect my kid by having a concealed weapon on them legally then have my child killed in a school shooting because the shooter is the only one with a gun. Does that make sense? Gun violence freaks me out which is why I'd be ok with the gun free zones in MI being eliminated. I want the opportunity to protect myself and my family if something were to go down while we were out somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post

I also want to add I am not against CCW permits. We own weapons and I couldn't give a rat's @ss if others own or carry. I just disagree that if everyone had a weapon it would have a better outcome than if only the perp. had one.
No one said anything about everyone carrying a weapon. The debate is about eliminating gun free zones which would allow legal CCW owners to carry their guns with them into previously restricted areas.
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  #32  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
Actually, that is not what I said at all but since you are going to continue putting words in my mouth even after I've pointed out to you that we are talking about two different things, I'm just going to move on.
Thought this was a debate. I didn't realize you have already worked out all the variables in your hypothetical life threatening situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
No one said anything about everyone carrying a weapon. The debate is about eliminating gun free zones which would allow legal CCW owners to carry their guns with them into previously restricted areas.
Great then add the word potential to my words you quoted. I disagree it will have the outcome you think it will if everyone POTENTIALLY is carrying a weapon.
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  #33  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:58 PM
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Thanks for the info. What's the process for renewal? Is there another intensive check involved or just a pay your fee and wait? I'm trying to see if it's like a drivers license or not. Like how would they know that a person is on long term rx drugs? Is a person mandated to report their medical information? Oh I know you can't answer for my state and others, I'm just curious as to how one state works. All I know for NY is that you get fingerprinted, have an extensive background check done, pay and wait to find out if you're approved or not. It's the once you're approved that I have no knowledge of. I do know that people with felonies, and I believe misdemeanors too, are disqualified from getting a permit. I guess for me it boils down to knowing all the check and balances in place before I can truly feel comfortable with no gun free zones.

Gun violence scares me too, but I see that the same violence has us on different ends of the spectrum. You would rather the teacher have a gun, and I would rather the teacher not.
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  #34  
April 3rd, 2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
Thought this was a debate. I didn't realize you have already worked out all the variables in your hypothetical life threatening situation.



Great then add the word potential to my words you quoted. I disagree it will have the outcome you think it will if everyone POTENTIALLY is carrying a weapon.
It is a debate. A debate that you continually twist the things I'm saying into something that I'm not. Either that or you are being intentionally obtuse, either way, I'm not interested in getting into a side debate over what I am and what I am not saying which is why I am choosing to just let you continue on with your wrong opinion and focus on the actual debate.
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  #35  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
It is a debate. A debate that you continually twist the things I'm saying into something that I'm not. Either that or you are being intentionally obtuse, either way, I'm not interested in getting into a side debate over what I am and what I am not saying which is why I am choosing to just let you continue on with your wrong opinion and focus on the actual debate.
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  #36  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
You are using an example of a home invasion where the perpetrator was clear to you. The OP example is of a gunman in a public area. Apples to oranges. They are not the same thing at all. Unless you live in a school, mall or other public place.





I also want to add I am not against CCW permits. We own weapons and I couldn't give a rat's @ss if others own or carry. I just disagree that if everyone had a weapon it would have a better outcome than if only the perp. had one.

Why I wrote that was in response to the claim that a PP made that you can't know what you are going to do in a fight or flight response once you are really in a situation. I believe it was in reference to Alicia being at home and protecting her family. That was the point of my post.




I think that when a gunman starts shooting MOST people hit the floor. Unless you are a terrible aim, you should be able to shoot at the gunman and not hit bystanders. I honestly would rather get shot by someone trying to save us than a gunman murdering us.

And just like military and police officers, even if everybody had guns, there will be the ones that are scared and won't do anything cowering.

I am not a person that just walks down the road. I walk down the road and I watch people. I watch for people following me, the way they act. I watch their movements and look for anything suspicious. I am not the norm and I realize that, but unfortunately I have been the victim to much in my life to let my guard down anymore. I will not allow my children watch me be robbed and beat up if I can help it. I will not allow somebody to kill me in cold blood in front of them. I sure as hell do not like going into student unions and stuff at school because it is just a death trap. I refuse to be a victim and I actively try to prevent it. I don't live in fear, I am aware of my surroundings and I take steps to protect myself and my family, in home or not.

I believe in the right to protect yourself at all costs.
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  #37  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
Thanks for the info. What's the process for renewal? Is there another intensive check involved or just a pay your fee and wait? I'm trying to see if it's like a drivers license or not. Like how would they know that a person is on long term rx drugs? Is a person mandated to report their medical information? Oh I know you can't answer for my state and others, I'm just curious as to how one state works. All I know for NY is that you get fingerprinted, have an extensive background check done, pay and wait to find out if you're approved or not. It's the once you're approved that I have no knowledge of. I do know that people with felonies, and I believe misdemeanors too, are disqualified from getting a permit. I guess for me it boils down to knowing all the check and balances in place before I can truly feel comfortable with no gun free zones.

Gun violence scares me too, but I see that the same violence has us on different ends of the spectrum. You would rather the teacher have a gun, and I would rather the teacher not.
The renewal process is somewhat more simple but still takes a bit. You a required to submit a new picture, take another shorter class (for training), allow another background check but not submit new fingerprints. I don't know if the medical information is mandated or not but I'm pretty sure I read or heard that being on a long term narcotic will get your permit denied by the gun board.

I'd rather my kids teacher have a gun and never need it then have one of my kids killed in a school shooting because the government doesn't allow guns on school campuses. For me, it all goes back to being able to protect the kids in the event that an emergency happens. Just like having fire extinguishers in school... its all about having the tools to prevent a disaster when at all possible.
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  #38  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:18 PM
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I wonder how it works in other places. Sounds like your state is pretty on top of their permits and regulations. I'll have to see what I can find out about NY. DH has said he would like us to get a weapon once we have our home. So I guess I need to educate myself fully on this one.
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  #39  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
Why I wrote that was in response to the claim that a PP made that you can't know what you are going to do in a fight or flight response once you are really in a situation. I believe it was in reference to Alicia being at home and protecting her family. That was the point of my post.




I think that when a gunman starts shooting MOST people hit the floor. Unless you are a terrible aim, you should be able to shoot at the gunman and not hit bystanders. I honestly would rather get shot by someone trying to save us than a gunman murdering us.

And just like military and police officers, even if everybody had guns, there will be the ones that are scared and won't do anything cowering.

I am not a person that just walks down the road. I walk down the road and I watch people. I watch for people following me, the way they act. I watch their movements and look for anything suspicious. I am not the norm and I realize that, but unfortunately I have been the victim to much in my life to let my guard down anymore. I will not allow my children watch me be robbed and beat up if I can help it. I will not allow somebody to kill me in cold blood in front of them. I sure as hell do not like going into student unions and stuff at school because it is just a death trap. I refuse to be a victim and I actively try to prevent it. I don't live in fear, I am aware of my surroundings and I take steps to protect myself and my family, in home or not.

I believe in the right to protect yourself at all costs.
I am the PP who introduced the fight or flight instincts into the debate. My reasoning for bringing it into the debate was to introduce that though one may be able to rationalize what they will/would do in a crowded area, such as the one in the OP, one their F/F response kicks in variables can quickly change ones thinking process. Think of the number of friendly fire incidents that happen even among police, where one officer mistook another for an assailant. Or even more recently the Trevon Martin incident where one if not both parties misread a life threatening situation and an unarmed teenager is dead and a 20 something mans life as he knew it is over.

The original question was would this be a preventative towards these types of crimes/loss. As I stated originally I don't think it would.
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April 3rd, 2012, 07:28 PM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
I wonder how it works in other places. Sounds like your state is pretty on top of their permits and regulations. I'll have to see what I can find out about NY. DH has said he would like us to get a weapon once we have our home. So I guess I need to educate myself fully on this one.
This may help you: Gun laws in the United States (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It is frightening to get your first gun, especially if you are like me and have spent your whole life being afraid of them. The important thing to remember is that respect is the key. Respect the weapon and what it has potential to do and you shouldn't ever have a problem. If you need any help with finding the right handgun, let me know. I had some pretty specific safety features I wanted since I have small kids in the house.
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