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  #41  
April 3rd, 2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
I am the PP who introduced the fight or flight instincts into the debate. My reasoning for bringing it into the debate was to introduce that though one may be able to rationalize what they will/would do in a crowded area, such as the one in the OP, one their F/F response kicks in variables can quickly change ones thinking process. Think of the number of friendly fire incidents that happen even among police, where one officer mistook another for an assailant. Or even more recently the Trevon Martin incident where one if not both parties misread a life threatening situation and an unarmed teenager is dead and a 20 something mans life as he knew it is over.

The original question was would this be a preventative towards these types of crimes/loss. As I stated originally I don't think it would.

No, but Zimmerman could have had a knife and the same thing can happen.

Look, we all live with a certain degree of risks. I am not willing to give up my right to bear arms because a bystander got killed or a 19 year old. That is what justice is for.


And not to mention a tyrannical government. If anybody thinks that could never happen here is naive. Not willing to give up my guns.
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  #42  
April 3rd, 2012, 09:34 PM
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I never suggested you should. I also own guns and fully support the 2nd amendment. I just disagree that having CCW will deter, prevent or make the situation suggested in the OP have a different outcome. Please don't confuse my opinion on the likely hood that a CCW would deter or prevent crimes in CCW banned areas as stating I don't think people have the right to bear arms.

I'm assuming convenience stores and gas stations are places one could carry a concealed weapon in states that allow for it and statistically have a higher occurrence of shooting crimes than those that happen in zones where concealed weapons are banned.

For the record every time I hear bear arms now all I think of is this

Drafting the Bill of Rights Rare Footage of Founder Fathers - YouTube



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
No, but Zimmerman could have had a knife and the same thing can happen.

Look, we all live with a certain degree of risks. I am not willing to give up my right to bear arms because a bystander got killed or a 19 year old. That is what justice is for.


And not to mention a tyrannical government. If anybody thinks that could never happen here is naive. Not willing to give up my guns.
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  #43  
April 4th, 2012, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LifeToTheMax View Post
Of course I do!

For the Michigan Civil Law:
MSP - Purchasing and Registering a Pistol in Michigan

For the quote on gun carrying being more likely to cause a person to be shot:
Does carrying a gun make you safer? Early research results suggest the opposite | cleveland.com

Now this article actually provides a little evidence on each side of the argument, and the general argument seems to be, like I agreed with BittyBugsMama above, that there really isn't an exact way to measure. Previously, when I quoted it, I had just shared my opinions/feelings (which, as we all know, can definitely change!), and then wanted to share that there is some evidence to support it.
Thanks. I'll check those out.

I have no opinion on this debate as of yet because some days I tend to lean towards Alicia's position and then other days, I'm more towards the other point of view. Good discussion though and I am enjoying everyone's perspectives.
eta..yes my grammar or whatever stinks right now. Just got home from work and should be napping
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  #44  
April 4th, 2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
I never suggested you should. I also own guns and fully support the 2nd amendment. I just disagree that having CCW will deter, prevent or make the situation suggested in the OP have a different outcome. Please don't confuse my opinion on the likely hood that a CCW would deter or prevent crimes in CCW banned areas as stating I don't think people have the right to bear arms.

I'm assuming convenience stores and gas stations are places one could carry a concealed weapon in states that allow for it and statistically have a higher occurrence of shooting crimes than those that happen in zones where concealed weapons are banned.

For the record every time I hear bear arms now all I think of is this

Drafting the Bill of Rights Rare Footage of Founder Fathers - YouTube

I am sorry. I was meaning in general. I know you didn't I should have worded that better. I am very passionate about this subject and I believe that we shouldn't even need CCWs, but that is another debate. I am ok with open carry too, but I would never open carry. I like people not knowing what I am packing lol.
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  #45  
April 4th, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Those who deal with high pressure life and death situations on a regular basis train ALL.THE.TIME for it so they can be prepared regardless of how often they deal with it in real life. It's a bit naive to think you, as a non trained non professional, could even begin to know how you would react in a life and death situation. Overcoming your natural flight or fight instinct is not nearly as easy as you may think it is.
I agree with Alicia on the original topic, but in regards to training, reactions, etc. I am on board with you. I've had unarmed self-defense training (never done weapons training or anything lethal), but I have been confronted violently by inmates. My reactions during those situations were nothing like I would have thought or hoped they would be. I had an inmate try to grab my arm through his cuff port last year, and luckily I pulled it away before he got a full grasp, pulled my arm in and broke it. I was shook up after it happened. It felt surreal, and I had all signs of stress and anxiety going through my body. In fact, I fell down 5 steps a few minutes later while getting my pen to write the paperwork up. I don't think anyone can truly know what they would do when confronted with that type of situation.
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  #46  
April 4th, 2012, 03:34 PM
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I still disagree. Leslie, my dh and I have both worked at a prison and had training (DH more than I). It scares me that people like you work with him. Not to be rude or mean, hesitating is what can get people hurt or killed. To me, it is just like a gun, if you can't handle it, your shouldn't have one or be there. I also worry about the Marines that have his back. I am sorry about the inmate that did that to you and I can sympathize, I have been there, but it is how you handle yourself is the key. I learned how to be the way I am because of trauma thru my life. I hope that experience never happens again to you, but do you think that maybe you would handle it differently the next time?
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  #47  
April 4th, 2012, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
I still disagree. Leslie, my dh and I have both worked at a prison and had training (DH more than I). It scares me that people like you work with him. Not to be rude or mean, hesitating is what can get people hurt or killed. To me, it is just like a gun, if you can't handle it, your shouldn't have one or be there. I also worry about the Marines that have his back. I am sorry about the inmate that did that to you and I can sympathize, I have been there, but it is how you handle yourself is the key. I learned how to be the way I am because of trauma thru my life. I hope that experience never happens again to you, but do you think that maybe you would handle it differently the next time?
But regardless of how you would act, there are people who have CCW licences and who do conceal carry that would act the same way as Leslie. Whether you agree with that or think that they should or not isn't really an issue. They do. How do you know that someone with their CCW license isn't going to react in a way that makes a life or death situation MORE dangerous because they have the gun? Some people will react like you would, and others will not, training or no training.
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  #48  
April 4th, 2012, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LifeToTheMax View Post
But regardless of how you would act, there are people who have CCW licences and who do conceal carry that would act the same way as Leslie. Whether you agree with that or think that they should or not isn't really an issue. They do. How do you know that someone with their CCW license isn't going to react in a way that makes a life or death situation MORE dangerous because they have the gun? Some people will react like you would, and others will not, training or no training.
Can you give an example? I am trying to figure out how someone who is carrying a legal handgun makes a situation more deadly when they confront an armed attacker. Not trying to be a smart@ss, I'm genuinely not seeing how its possible and an example would probably help me understand what you are saying.
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  #49  
April 4th, 2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
I agree with Alicia on the original topic, but in regards to training, reactions, etc. I am on board with you. I've had unarmed self-defense training (never done weapons training or anything lethal), but I have been confronted violently by inmates. My reactions during those situations were nothing like I would have thought or hoped they would be. I had an inmate try to grab my arm through his cuff port last year, and luckily I pulled it away before he got a full grasp, pulled my arm in and broke it. I was shook up after it happened. It felt surreal, and I had all signs of stress and anxiety going through my body. In fact, I fell down 5 steps a few minutes later while getting my pen to write the paperwork up. I don't think anyone can truly know what they would do when confronted with that type of situation.
I don't necessarily disagree with her end opinion, just on her rational that got her there. I'm not a believer that instinct alone will allow for a person to immediately overcome their fight or flight instinct and react as they pre-planed for.
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  #50  
April 4th, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with her end opinion, just on her rational that got her there. I'm not a believer that instinct alone will allow for a person to immediately overcome their fight or flight instinct and react as they pre-planed for.
Again, didn't say that. I said I think instinct is a lot of being able to deal with situations. If your natural instinct is to panic in that kind of situation, you may be screwed regardless of the training you have (like in the example that Leslie gave). She managed to get away after a second or two when her training kicked in but she was still startled and shaken to the point where she fell down a set of stairs.

Good instincts can save your butt in a situation where your fight instinct kicks in and you protect yourself from your attacker. Good instincts + consistent training = a police officer, military personnel, sharp shooter, sniper, etc. That isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about normal, everyday people who are put in situations that create a fight or flight response and how people react. Some people fight, some people run. Training helps but a person who owns a handgun and has never taken a training course could potentially protect themselves just as well as someone who has taken training classes because they have good instincts.
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  #51  
April 4th, 2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
I still disagree. Leslie, my dh and I have both worked at a prison and had training (DH more than I). It scares me that people like you work with him. Not to be rude or mean, hesitating is what can get people hurt or killed. To me, it is just like a gun, if you can't handle it, your shouldn't have one or be there. I also worry about the Marines that have his back. I am sorry about the inmate that did that to you and I can sympathize, I have been there, but it is how you handle yourself is the key. I learned how to be the way I am because of trauma thru my life. I hope that experience never happens again to you, but do you think that maybe you would handle it differently the next time?
Hmmmm... not real sure what to think of your reply. Usually when you preface something with "not to be rude or mean" you know it's going to be exactly that.
No one can guarantee how they would react in a stressful/deadly situation 100% of the time. So, you are worried about him because of the prison co-workers and even the Marines. That seems a bit uppity to me, like you believe that only your DH can handle things properly and everyone else is a schmuck. I was shook up, and I think any normal person would be. My reaction time was actually quite good as he threw his arm out fast while I was turning away and I still managed to get it away without him getting it into the cuffport which could have seriously injured me. Any person that has a psychotic person try to grab and injure them and doesn't get shook up... they deserve a freaking medal.
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  #52  
April 4th, 2012, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
Again, didn't say that. I said I think instinct is a lot of being able to deal with situations. If your natural instinct is to panic in that kind of situation, you may be screwed regardless of the training you have (like in the example that Leslie gave). She managed to get away after a second or two when her training kicked in but she was still startled and shaken to the point where she fell down a set of stairs.

Good instincts can save your butt in a situation where your fight instinct kicks in and you protect yourself from your attacker. Good instincts + consistent training = a police officer, military personnel, sharp shooter, sniper, etc. That isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about normal, everyday people who are put in situations that create a fight or flight response and how people react. Some people fight, some people run. Training helps but a person who owns a handgun and has never taken a training course could potentially protect themselves just as well as someone who has taken training classes because they have good instincts.
So we are interacting again?

I think you misunderstand how fight or flight response affects a person but as I'm sure to be accused of being 'intentionally obtuse', 'twisting words' or something of the sort I'll let you have it Alicia. I'm sure you are well aware how your involuntary reaction to a life threatening situation will be ahead of time.
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  #53  
April 4th, 2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
So we are interacting again?

I think you misunderstand how fight or flight response affects a person but as I'm sure to be accused of being 'intentionally obtuse', 'twisting words' or something of the sort I'll let you have it Alicia. I'm sure you are well aware how your involuntary reaction to a life threatening situation will be ahead of time.
I was correcting another misstatement made by you in regards to my standing on the issue and what I said. And we are talking about shooting a gun, not involuntary reactions. I only used Leslie's example because she is trained and even with her training, her initial reaction was panic. Training can help a person but if your natural reaction is to panic, you may be in trouble. If your natural reaction is not to panic, you may not need training in order to protect yourself from an attacker.
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  #54  
April 4th, 2012, 05:12 PM
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If you would have asked if I would have reacted like that priorto having experienced it, I would have said no. That's really what it boils down to. No amount of training or experience can totally prepare you and ensure how you will react in an given situation.
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  #55  
April 4th, 2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
Can you give an example? I am trying to figure out how someone who is carrying a legal handgun makes a situation more deadly when they confront an armed attacker. Not trying to be a smart@ss, I'm genuinely not seeing how its possible and an example would probably help me understand what you are saying.
I suppose I just mean whatever situation they (being whomever is in charge of these things) are concerned about when the post signs saying No Concealed Weapons. I guess my completely uneducated guess (maybe because it's just what I can think to be concerned about?) would be someone taking the weapon (through slight of hand or overpowering the person) or the person with the gun reacting too quickly or panicking and shooting the wrong person or not properly reading the situation and shooting an innocent person or panicking and not aiming well and shooting the wrong person.

Please be kind I really know very little about hand guns and may have gotten a little in over my head in this debate. I really was just trying to argue Leslie's point that just because some people or even more people with training will react properly in a stressful situation, there are people out there who will not, regardless of training and licenses.
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  #56  
April 4th, 2012, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LifeToTheMax View Post
I suppose I just mean whatever situation they (being whomever is in charge of these things) are concerned about when the post signs saying No Concealed Weapons. I guess my completely uneducated guess (maybe because it's just what I can think to be concerned about?) would be someone taking the weapon (through slight of hand or overpowering the person) or the person with the gun reacting too quickly or panicking and shooting the wrong person or not properly reading the situation and shooting an innocent person or panicking and not aiming well and shooting the wrong person.

Please be kind I really know very little about hand guns and may have gotten a little in over my head in this debate. I really was just trying to argue Leslie's point that just because some people or even more people with training will react properly in a stressful situation, there are people out there who will not, regardless of training and licenses.
Well, a part of being a responsible and smart concealed carrier is making sure your weapon is secured and not viewable. The purpose of concealed carrying is to have it on you but not for other people to know you have it, does that make sense? So for someone to disarm (by removing the weapon from your holster) you is possible but should be highly unlikely. Being overpowered is probably a more likely scenario, but again, if you are in a good training class for your CPL, they will teach you the techniques to use so that it is harder for your assailant to take your gun. IE, when "clearing rooms" (like you see in cop shows) you never go around the corner with your gun fully extended - you hold it close to your chest and rotate your whole body around the corner so you are able to fire if needed and they won't be able to disarm you.

In almost any situation that I can come up with in my brain, the assailant is obvious because they are the one initiating the confrontation. I suppose if there is something like a campus shooting going on and there are large amounts of chaos, if there are multiple people who are concealed carrying pursuing the original shooter, someone may be accidentally mistaken for the original shooter. Things that are small scale are much more likely though, like being in a gas station while its being robbed or being in a bank while its being robbed and in those situations, the assailant is obvious.

I think the important thing to know is that the people who have CPLs are the responsible gun owners. They have taken the time and money to go through training, be fingerprinted, be background checked, and have their lives scrutinized. In the MI CPL requirements, there are 3 full pages of things that automatically disqualify you from getting a CPL. The people with the CPLs are there to protect you, your family, themselves and their families. In most cases, its not because they wanna be super cool gangbangers and show off their fancy gun - those are the people who buy the black market guns.

I'd be curious to see the numbers but I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that more people are killed every year by illegally owned guns and people who have not been trained than those who are legally concealed carrying and who are licensed. Legally owned guns are not something to be afraid of, its the ones that aren't traceable that are more likely to kill you (as a law abiding citizen). Guns get a bad rep in this country because the media is always sensationalizing them, which in turn, makes people afraid of them for no reason. They are one of those tools that you never want to use but you are glad to have in case you need it.
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  #57  
April 4th, 2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
Hmmmm... not real sure what to think of your reply. Usually when you preface something with "not to be rude or mean" you know it's going to be exactly that.
No one can guarantee how they would react in a stressful/deadly situation 100% of the time. So, you are worried about him because of the prison co-workers and even the Marines. That seems a bit uppity to me, like you believe that only your DH can handle things properly and everyone else is a schmuck. I was shook up, and I think any normal person would be. My reaction time was actually quite good as he threw his arm out fast while I was turning away and I still managed to get it away without him getting it into the cuffport which could have seriously injured me. Any person that has a psychotic person try to grab and injure them and doesn't get shook up... they deserve a freaking medal.
No, that is not what I mean. I mean that I do worry about people freezing, not that my DH does it better. It is just issues that could happen because of the environments he works in. I worry about my husbands comrades freezing and him dieing because of the way they respond. My DH could too, but I have seen him in action and I have 100% faith in him. Please don't twist my words. You work in a prison, you know that some COs like to treat inmates like dogs and it can insight a riot. THAT persons actions could get my husband killed. When my husband is in a use of force and a CO just stands there and watches him get his *** whooped because he is scared or does not react like he was trained, that is what scares me. Not that my DH does it better.
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  #58  
April 4th, 2012, 11:11 PM
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So let me get this straight, you are not ok with her emotional reaction AFTER the event was over? She wasn't allowed to be emotionally affected after the entire event passed and nobody got hurt? I'm confused about what Leslie did that was so heinous or how it could get someone killed.

I work in a psychiatric setting and have for years. I'm really unsure how her "shakedown" response post incident, which is biochemically natural and even happens in nature after animals get attacked, is somehow an indicator of her work abilities?
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  #59  
April 5th, 2012, 05:29 AM
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No, she explained more into it and I think what she did was perfectly normal and her training kicked in. In her first post, she made it seem that she froze. Then she went back and clarified what happened. I clarified what I mean by I worry about people around my DH.

It has nothing to do with Leslie doing anything heinous. My point is if she froze (which from the clarification, she did not, it just took a second for her training to kick in) she should evaulate if that field is for her because next time, it could mean life or death for somebody else. ANY person should if they freeze in the first incident.

I love when words are put in somebody's mouth and people call in a support squad.
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  #60  
April 5th, 2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Fluffy Baby View Post
No, she explained more into it and I think what she did was perfectly normal and her training kicked in. In her first post, she made it seem that she froze. Then she went back and clarified what happened. I clarified what I mean by I worry about people around my DH.

It has nothing to do with Leslie doing anything heinous. My point is if she froze (which from the clarification, she did not, it just took a second for her training to kick in) she should evaulate if that field is for her because next time, it could mean life or death for somebody else. ANY person should if they freeze in the first incident.

I love when words are put in somebody's mouth and people call in a support squad.
I love that despite the fact i have personal experience that relates to Leslie's, I am too much of a moron to think and desire to respond on my own. I must have been a robot and decided to respond for Leslie instead of simply relating and being offended myself given that i've been in her same situation and do it on a daily basis. Thanks for the jab at my intentions there although guess I'm not surprised.
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