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  #1  
April 3rd, 2012, 07:52 AM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Dh and I were talking last night about the shooting at the school in CA yesterday and he said that gun free zones are actually dangerous. It got me thinking about what he said and I am curious what other people think. The theory is that gun free zones actually protect the shooter and are a disservice to the people becoming victims. It makes a lot of sense to me that if people were able to carry on campuses, in banks, etc that gun crimes would probably go down because the shooter would know there is potential to be killed. In a gun free zone, law abiding citizens are not carrying because its against the law but the law obviously isn't going to stop the person who is intending to kill or rob other people. They aren't going to see a sign on a campus that says "gun free zone" and turn around, deciding not to go on a killing spree. He called gun free zones "criminal empowerment zones" and I think he hit the nail on the head.

So what do you think? Are gun free zones actually dangerous for those of us who are law abiding citizens? Should people who have completed CCW classes be allowed to carry regardless of the laws? Do you think gun related crimes would go down at schools, banks and other gun free zones if the law changed to allow CCW carriers to carry or if they eliminated the gun free zone laws completely?
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Last edited by BittyBugsMama; April 3rd, 2012 at 07:54 AM.
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  #2  
April 3rd, 2012, 10:13 AM
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I think that there are people that are going to carry a concealed weapon no matter if there is a little sign hanging on the door or not. (Or if it is a generalized no-gun zone, I know they don't all have signs). If someone happens to be carrying a concealed weapon and becomes a hero then it's just great luck, and that person will also be charged more than likely.

I still feel more comfortable sending my kids to a school where others aren't openly carrying glocks and waving around knives than to worry that some mentally wounded delinquent is going to MAYBE have a gun and decide to shoot people that day.

And yes I realize that just because a place is NOT a gun free zone that it doesn't mean everyone will carry guns/weapons. I guess it's a ****** if you do ****** if you don't situation.

I have to add that the only thing I've seen happen in WI since they permitted concealed carry is that more of those little signs are popping up. From Aldi's all the way to the clinic at Walmart. It's fine if you want to carry your gun in your home, and in your vehicle, but there's no need at all to bring it into a store, library, out house, anything else.
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  #3  
April 3rd, 2012, 10:52 AM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Actually, concealed carrying in a no carry zone can get your permit taken away if you are caught with it.

Concealed carrying and open carrying are two totally different things and I was definitely not referring to open carrying in schools or banks, etc.

I disagree with the no need to CC in a library or grocery store, etc. That is the reason to have a CCWP, so that you are able to keep your weapon on you in the event that you will need to use it. Seems kinda silly to store a gun in your car and never carry it on you... Having a pistol in the trunk of your car isn't gonna help you when the store you are in is being held up.
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  #4  
April 3rd, 2012, 11:12 AM
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The most common thing I hear for pro-concealed carry is that people want to protect their home and property. Everyone doesn't need to go around pretending to, or hoping to play hero. That makes things even more scary, like that off duty cop that was shot because the guy mistook him for someone he had just seen commit a crime.

*I tend to exaggerate, I know that people wouldn't be waving around their guns and swords in class or while checking out the latest Twilight book*
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  #5  
April 3rd, 2012, 11:20 AM
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I do strongly feel if someone is carrying with intent to harm, they're going to do so no matter what, laws be ******. I don't believe they go through the thought process of "well, if I'm carrying, odds are plenty of others are too, I might just get hurt". I think if that thought even enters their mind, it's because they're contemplating assisted suicide(such things like forcing the cops, or anyone who might be carrying, to shoot you in order to protect others).

I don't think either scenario produces more of a threat than the other, at all times. Both can be equally dangerous and safe and there's no real way to predict the outcome in many, let alone all, scenarios. I don't think any kind of zone would really prevent all shootings and gun related crimes, or even most.
I'm not really sure I agree that gun free zones become basically a free for all, for those with intent to cause harm(or even those with intent to draw fear from others). I believe if that were the case we'd be seeing a heck of a lot more crimes in those zones than we're seeing now.
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  #6  
April 3rd, 2012, 11:30 AM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repti.Mom View Post
The most common thing I hear for pro-concealed carry is that people want to protect their home and property. Everyone doesn't need to go around pretending to, or hoping to play hero. That makes things even more scary, like that off duty cop that was shot because the guy mistook him for someone he had just seen commit a crime.

*I tend to exaggerate, I know that people wouldn't be waving around their guns and swords in class or while checking out the latest Twilight book*
You don't need a permit to carry a weapon on your own property or within your own house, at least not in MI you don't. I could walk around with my 9mm loaded in my house all day if I wanted to (not that I ever would). Concealed carrying is having a handgun somewhere on your person while you are out in public. If I decided to get my permit, I wouldn't be carrying it to play hero - I'd be carrying it to protect myself and my family. People who are intelligent and have their permits would never openly brandish or fire their weapon without the threat of imminent harm / death or sexual assault. Of course there are always going to be idiots who manage to get their permits but smart, responsible gun owners wouldn't shoot someone because they thought someone committed a crime.

This probably better explains the debate: Eliminate criminal empowerment zones in Michigan - Detroit martial arts | Examiner.com
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  #7  
April 3rd, 2012, 12:14 PM
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First, in MI, you have to have a permit to even purchase a gun.
Quote:
In Michigan, a person "shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol," as prescribed in MCL 28.422. These licenses shall be obtained by the local police agency. If the city, township, or village does not have an organized police agency, the license shall be obtained by the county sheriff department.
To be honest, I'm very much in agreement with the reseach that shows that guns do little to protect the people carrying. I have a hard time understanding the need to carry a gun, other than for hunting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gun! I'm from an area where hunting is a huge pastime. Most people I knew growing up had guns, or their parents did, anyway. But they were the guns that were kept locked tight in safes and taken out only for gun safety course or to shoot deer. I would honestly feel more fearful carrying a gun, personally. I don't like the idea that anyone, outside of a uniformed, on-duty police offier, would be carrying a gun at a school or even in my office building.

I know that there is going to be research arguing both sides, but there is definitely evidence that carrying a gun does not make a person safer and in fact INCREASES their risk of being shot.

Quote:
For years, researchers have been trying to investigate whether carrying a gun is protective or risky. But getting the answer through science has proved elusive. Now, University of Pennsylvania researcher Charles Branas has tried a new tack -- employing methods normally used by epidemiologists to study cancer and other diseases.

Branas compared a group of shooting victims to a similar set of "controls" who had not been shot. His results, he said, show that guns did not, on average, protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault -- and in fact raised the risk by four times or more.

"People shouldn't feel that firearms are going to enhance their safety," Branas said. The study was published in the current issue of the prestigious American Journal of Public Health.
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  #8  
April 3rd, 2012, 12:14 PM
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I can't help but picture the wild wild west if we allowed something like this. I personally like the idea of a gun free zone. I'm with the logic that a true person bent on doing something with a gun is going to do it regardless of the consequences.
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  #9  
April 3rd, 2012, 12:33 PM
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That's why I said home or property. You can have property that's not ON your property, unless being in your car counts the same as being in your home.
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  #10  
April 3rd, 2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeToTheMax View Post
First, in MI, you have to have a permit to even purchase a gun.


To be honest, I'm very much in agreement with the reseach that shows that guns do little to protect the people carrying. I have a hard time understanding the need to carry a gun, other than for hunting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gun! I'm from an area where hunting is a huge pastime. Most people I knew growing up had guns, or their parents did, anyway. But they were the guns that were kept locked tight in safes and taken out only for gun safety course or to shoot deer. I would honestly feel more fearful carrying a gun, personally. I don't like the idea that anyone, outside of a uniformed, on-duty police offier, would be carrying a gun at a school or even in my office building.

I know that there is going to be research arguing both sides, but there is definitely evidence that carrying a gun does not make a person safer and in fact INCREASES their risk of being shot.
To the bolded, not necessarily. If you have a CCW or an FFL license, you are able to purchase weapons without first getting a purchase permit. The FFL is slightly different but it allows you to purchase guns without a permit.

Our guns are all locked up, out of reach from our kids, always unloaded and only taken out for classes, range practice and break ins (if one were to occur). Being fearful of carrying a handgun is normal at first, pretty much everyone struggles with it. If you don't believe me, google the phrase "my walmart timer starts now" and see what you find.

Obviously having a gun increases your risk of being shot, especially if you haven't been properly trained on how to prevent someone else from getting ahold of your gun during a struggle or home invasion. If the attacker doesn't have a gun and gets yours, then your risk of being shot increases. That is just common sense. However, the true numbers can never really be known because its not like an attacker is going to call the police, tell them they broke in your house and you pulled a gun on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
I can't help but picture the wild wild west if we allowed something like this. I personally like the idea of a gun free zone. I'm with the logic that a true person bent on doing something with a gun is going to do it regardless of the consequences.
I think you may be surprised at the number of people who CC. According to this article from a year ago, there were 6 million ccw permits in America. Record numbers now licensed to pack heat - US news - Life - msnbc.com

Yes, a person truly bent on killing someone is going to do it. Its not about preventing, its about protecting. Read the story in the article I linked, its a good article for why people should be able to CC. You are never going to prevent someone from taking a gun into a place with the intent of causing harm - but you may be able to save everyone's lives or a lot of lives by having your own firearm to take that person down.

Guns are tools used for prevention. Why do you have smoke detectors? To alert you if there is a fire in your house. You don't ever want it to go off but every year, you replace the batteries just in case. Same thing with seatbelts. You may never need it but every time you get in the car, you put it on just in case. Guns are something you don't want to use but you want to have in case you need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Repti.Mom View Post
That's why I said home or property. You can have property that's not ON your property, unless being in your car counts the same as being in your home.
huh?
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  #11  
April 3rd, 2012, 12:54 PM
Fluffy Baby's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I don't have a bunch of time, but I stand behind Alicia for this debate 100%.

I think gun free zones are dangerous, look at the amount of killings done on campuses the last 5 years or so. All it takes to stop a mass murder is somebody pull out their gun and shoot him. Problem solved, people saved.
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  #12  
April 3rd, 2012, 01:08 PM
Repti.Mom's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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You said that you can carry your gun inside your house all you want even without a concealed carry permit. I was saying, and I don't know gun laws all that well, that unless your car counts the same as your house, that's why I said home OR property before.
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  #13  
April 3rd, 2012, 01:18 PM
BittyBugsMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repti.Mom View Post
You said that you can carry your gun inside your house all you want even without a concealed carry permit. I was saying, and I don't know gun laws all that well, that unless your car counts the same as your house, that's why I said home OR property before.
Ah ok. Well CC permits aren't needed for homes (In MI for sure) so I'm curious what your state's conceal carry laws are because I've never heard any pro - CCW argument involve being able to carry a weapon in your own home / on your own property. Cars are different - I am talking about your home and the property your home is on only.
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  #14  
April 3rd, 2012, 01:38 PM
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I really have nothing of use to add to the debate, living in Australia ive never experienced anyone who owns a gun who isnt a police officer or farmer.

Dosent it scare you that so many people are walking around with lethal weapons hidden on their person? That wouldnt probably make me so terrified and id never leave the house, and I have to say, its one thing thats prevented me from every gong to America, id love to go there, but id be so paranoid about the excessive gun use, I can honestly say that im too scared to go.
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  #15  
April 3rd, 2012, 01:50 PM
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It wouldn't matter. A person who enters a school or other type area with the intent to shoot people will generally have little to no regard for their own life. The fear that others may shoot him/her wouldn't hold much "fear"


Most of the general public does not have the proper training to deal with these types of situations. Even those who think they do or can handle it would honestly be unprepared when the time arose.
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  #16  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybele View Post
I really have nothing of use to add to the debate, living in Australia ive never experienced anyone who owns a gun who isnt a police officer or farmer.

Dosent it scare you that so many people are walking around with lethal weapons hidden on their person? That wouldnt probably make me so terrified and id never leave the house, and I have to say, its one thing thats prevented me from every gong to America, id love to go there, but id be so paranoid about the excessive gun use, I can honestly say that im too scared to go.
No, it really doesn't because those who have permits have gone through training to know how to correctly use their firearms. The people who scare me are the ones who are not legally carrying guns. Those are the people that we need to protect ourselves from. There would be no reason for us to have guns legally if there weren't people out there who had them illegally and were willing to use them against us to get what they want (property, money, sexual things).

Detroit is not too far from us and stories like this Detroit Murder, Gun Violence Rate Climbing « CBS Detroit are the reason that I felt it necessary to get our own firearms. Violence is slowly creeping out of Detroit and getting closer and closer to our area and that is why my husband and I decided to start being proactive by getting a dog who could protect us as the first line of defense and handguns as our second line of defense. It takes approximately 3 - 4 minutes to get a police officer to our front door but it takes only 30 - 60 seconds for someone to come into my house and attack me or one of my family members. With one bullet, someone could take out our dog and then what? We needed one extra step to protect ourselves. I'd rather be prepared and safe then in a crisis situation where I wished I had a way to protect myself, my husband or my children. People shouldn't be afraid of guns - they should respect guns. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
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  #17  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho06 View Post
It wouldn't matter. A person who enters a school or other type area with the intent to shoot people will generally have little to no regard for their own life. The fear that others may shoot him/her wouldn't hold much "fear"


Most of the general public does not have the proper training to deal with these types of situations. Even those who think they do or can handle it would honestly be unprepared when the time arose.
Again, its not about scaring people into not committing violent crimes (although that would be the ideal outcome) its about the people inside that building being able to protect themselves against a gunman. If a person goes in to a bank to rob it, they want money - not to be dead. If they know the teller has a handgun behind the desk, they are more likely to end up dead than with a big bag of money so they make be deterred from robbing that bank.

To the bolded: have you ever taken a CCW class? Because that is exactly what my husband's class taught him about. They go to the range and they go through a group of scenarios one person at a time so that if you were ever to be in a situation where you would need to pull your concealed weapon, you would know what to do. It doesn't take much in the way of training to learn how to properly use your handgun and a lot of it is instinct - if you don't have the instinct, you may be in trouble either way.
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  #18  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:13 PM
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A gun that is safely secured, as in, locked, unloaded,ammo not near the gun, is no more a second line of defense than your own hands, or any other object you could easily pick up, for most people. Most people, even trained, aren't going to be able to get to the weapon, get to the ammo, load the weapon, and fire off a shot before something happens-all too often, something fatal.
I'm not anti gun whatsoever, in fact I strongly believe most people ought to have the right to own one(barring something legal, or medical that would prevent them of course) and carry it when/where needed. I just have a very difficult time with the whole "we have it in our house as protection" when in reality, it's not a very effective form of protection in most states because of the laws regulating how/when/where one can have it.
It is however a very reassuring thing for many people just to know how to use it, and know they have it. I believe you should not own one at all, even if you never use it, unless you are properly trained to use it, though.

I think it's very sad that so many people are really afraid of guns. There's no reason to be afraid of the gun, the gun isn't going to jump up and shoot it's innards at you all by it's lonesome. It's the person behind the gun that has ALL the control. Even then, the majority of people in this country don't even own a gun, much less carry one concealed or otherwise. Those who carry legally, aren't typically someone you need to fear either(not always the case of course, but it's not the norm for someone to legally own a gun and go on some kind of rampage)

There's absolutely no reason to be scared of being in harm's way simply by being in this country. That's a terrible assumption of Americans, if you ask me. One could find just about any terrible thing that has happened, or does happen, in another country and use that very thing as an assumed bias against the entire place. I can honestly say it doesn't really speak highly of you when you do, though.(general you)I'm not usually one for being mean outright, but it makes people sound like idiots when they make blanket unfair and unfounded statements like that. It's extremely ignorant and that sort of opinion is what puts a huge stigma on those who do own guns legally.
It's not like the people of this country are walking around everyday wondering if today is the day they'll be shot, or something, lol.We live life everyday like most people around the world do.
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  #19  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeToTheMax View Post
First, in MI, you have to have a permit to even purchase a gun.


To be honest, I'm very much in agreement with the reseach that shows that guns do little to protect the people carrying. I have a hard time understanding the need to carry a gun, other than for hunting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gun! I'm from an area where hunting is a huge pastime. Most people I knew growing up had guns, or their parents did, anyway. But they were the guns that were kept locked tight in safes and taken out only for gun safety course or to shoot deer. I would honestly feel more fearful carrying a gun, personally. I don't like the idea that anyone, outside of a uniformed, on-duty police offier, would be carrying a gun at a school or even in my office building.

I know that there is going to be research arguing both sides, but there is definitely evidence that carrying a gun does not make a person safer and in fact INCREASES their risk of being shot.
Do you have links for those quotes? I would like to check them out. Thanks
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  #20  
April 3rd, 2012, 02:23 PM
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I have not, outside of law enforcement there are essentially no CCW's in NJ. I have, however, been trained on weapons in the military and disagree a billion times over that instinct and ONE training course will have any effect with the outcome of a persons ability to manage themselves along with a weapon in a fight or flight situation. Especially based upon your opinion that "it doesn't take much" training. It takes constant consistent training to learn and keep the ability to navigate oneself through a high stress situation where there is (a) person(s) shooting others and how to discern the assailant from others who are attempting to protect themselves.





Quote:
Originally Posted by BittyBugsMama View Post
Again, its not about scaring people into not committing violent crimes (although that would be the ideal outcome) its about the people inside that building being able to protect themselves against a gunman. If a person goes in to a bank to rob it, they want money - not to be dead. If they know the teller has a handgun behind the desk, they are more likely to end up dead than with a big bag of money so they make be deterred from robbing that bank.

To the bolded: have you ever taken a CCW class? Because that is exactly what my husband's class taught him about. They go to the range and they go through a group of scenarios one person at a time so that if you were ever to be in a situation where you would need to pull your concealed weapon, you would know what to do. It doesn't take much in the way of training to learn how to properly use your handgun and a lot of it is instinct - if you don't have the instinct, you may be in trouble either way.
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