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Illegal imigrants = victimless crime


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  #1  
April 11th, 2012, 06:01 AM
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Do you think being an illegal immigrant is a victimless crime?

Basis of this: story in our local paper about a man who was recently deported to Mexico. This was the second time he had been deported in his time in the United States. He had been here total over 10 years, is 'married' and has four children with his wife. On the comments section I posed the question "what did he do in the first place to be arrested to be found to be illegal and deported the first time"? Of course I got the answer back "well he was ILLEGAL!!" They don't just go around checking people who have been here for near a decade like a needle in a haystack and shipping them out of the country. No one seemed to agree with me on that fact. Then I stated that being illegal is a victimless crime, just like prostitution. Of course that caused an uproar.

What do you think?
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  #2  
April 11th, 2012, 06:30 AM
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I have a hard time with it. My issues with illegal immigration are first that it negatively impacts the ability of people trying to immigrate to the United States through legal channels or people attempting to come to the United States for political assylum. In some ways, the illegal immigrants are being "line jumpers" in this way. Using this rationale, the victims are the people trying to legally immigrate or claim assylum.

Second, illegal immigration can negatively affect the economy. This, of course, is not truly the fault of the immigrant, but of the employers willing to hire them and to pay them less then minimum wage. Regardless, it decreases the available jobs to American citizens whom the employers would be required to pay minimum wage. In this instance, the victim is the unemployed American citizen, but again, the law breaker is the employer (who can also be prosecuted for the crime) and the immigrant is only the vessel.
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  #3  
April 11th, 2012, 09:01 AM
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Well I think people should be able to live wherever they feel as long as they can support themselves in that country. I do find it sad that it can be really hard to become legal in another country, especially the US.

As for jobs, my DH use to work with a lot of illegal Mexican immigrants, and they were doing the jobs no one wanted at all. They were not taking away jobs at all, they were getting the jobs you couldn't find an American citizen to do even with upping the pay. I really think majority of the illegal immigrants work crap jobs no one else will. I don't think they are really taking any jobs away, not where we lived atleast.
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  #4  
April 11th, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
Well I think people should be able to live wherever they feel as long as they can support themselves in that country. I do find it sad that it can be really hard to become legal in another country, especially the US.

As for jobs, my DH use to work with a lot of illegal Mexican immigrants, and they were doing the jobs no one wanted at all. They were not taking away jobs at all, they were getting the jobs you couldn't find an American citizen to do even with upping the pay. I really think majority of the illegal immigrants work crap jobs no one else will. I don't think they are really taking any jobs away, not where we lived atleast.
I know where I grew up, that is not true at all. They could be paid less and would do more work for longer hours than someone who had to be paid legally. There were definitely other people who would have done the job given the opportunity. And where my grandparents lived, they did a lot of farm work because they worked for lower wages, even though many American citizens would have been happy to do the work. It probably isn't the case everywhere. I'm sure there are places where what you said is exactly true, illegal immigrants take jobs other people won't do or don't have the skills to do.

As far as your first point, I'm not entirely in disagreement. HOWEVER, the fact remains that you cannot live wherever you want without going through legal channels. Going around those laws isn't really sticking it to the government for not allowing free migration, it's taking an opportunity away from people who are trying to go through legal channels.
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  #5  
April 11th, 2012, 12:23 PM
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I've often wondered, since the blanket statement is used so regularly, what are these jobs that NO American will consider?
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  #6  
April 11th, 2012, 12:23 PM
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Right, but my point in my first paragraph is that I think people should be free to live where they want without being legal/illegal. I know that would never happen, so that would be my dream world. And this is of course if the people can afford to live there, not on the Government's dime.

Yes it is different everywhere and illegals are doing the work where I use to live that Americans would not do. They weren't taking away any jobs, they were just doing all the crap work you couldn't pay anyone else to do. Illegals weren't working in corporate buildings, stores, restaurants, etc. They were working in feilds where the regular farmers didn't mainly. Others may have been working for a private business doing janitorial work like cleaning out portapotties and things like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cereal Killer View Post
I've often wondered, since the blanket statement is used so regularly, what are these jobs that NO American will consider?
The ones my DH knew were hand picking veggies in feilds, picking weeds out of feilds by hand, being the tool-go-getter for landscapers, clean up oil spills in auto shops, cleaning out old buildings for moving companies, etc. These less than proud jobs that many Americans snub at, that don't pay hardly minimum wage to an Amercan.
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  #7  
April 11th, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post

Yes it is different everywhere and illegals are doing the work where I use to live that Americans would not do. They weren't taking away any jobs, they were just doing all the crap work you couldn't pay anyone else to do. Illegals weren't working in corporate buildings, stores, restaurants, etc. They were working in feilds where the regular farmers didn't mainly. Others may have been working for a private business doing janitorial work like cleaning out portapotties and things like that.
There are countless American janitors, port-o-potty employees, etc. There is no such job that is unsuitable to 100% of Americans. Normally, if the job were undesirable, whether because it was dangerous, manual labor or because it was just disgusting, the employer would adjust the salary to make it desirable. As a pp stated, the fact that illegal immigrants are willing to take less than reasonable compensation for these positions because their illegal status limits their options only means that American workers are forced to accept the same level of pay for these jobs and, because of their limited education and/or lacking skill set, are equally as limited for exploring other options.
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  #8  
April 11th, 2012, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cereal Killer View Post
There are countless American janitors, port-o-potty employees, etc. There is no such job that is unsuitable to 100% of Americans. Normally, if the job were undesirable, whether because it was dangerous, manual labor or because it was just disgusting, the employer would adjust the salary to make it desirable. As a pp stated, the fact that illegal immigrants are willing to take less than reasonable compensation for these positions because their illegal status limits their options only means that American workers are forced to accept the same level of pay for these jobs and, because of their limited education and/or lacking skill set, are equally as limited for exploring other options.
Yes, I know there are Americans who do those types of jobs, but I was pointing to my experience in the illegals that we've known and where we lived Americans did not want those jobs so illegals took it. No jobs were lost to illegals because of it. I'm not saying that is what it is like 100% of everywhere else, only in my experience in the little bit of illegals that DH knew of.
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  #9  
April 11th, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
Yes, I know there are Americans who do those types of jobs, but I was pointing to my experience in the illegals that we've known and where we lived Americans did not want those jobs so illegals took it. No jobs were lost to illegals because of it. I'm not saying that is what it is like 100% of everywhere else, only in my experience in the little bit of illegals that DH knew of.
But Stacey's point was that there is NO job that 100% of Americans (in any area) will not take for a certain amount of pay, including all of the jobs you listed. Her point was that if there were not illegal immigrants to take those jobs for meager wages, then the employers would have to pay an American citizen a fair wage to do the job. Someone may not want to hand pick crops for a few dollars an hour, but offer more and they may jump at the opportunity. The jobs ARE being taken away from Americans because someone is being paid to do them for less. To be honest, that isn't fair to anyone.
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  #10  
April 11th, 2012, 02:26 PM
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Well here the illegals were not being paid less, they were being paid minimum wage, or close to it. My experiences just aren't the ones people on here and in other debates have said.
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  #11  
April 11th, 2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
Well here the illegals were not being paid less, they were being paid minimum wage, or close to it. My experiences just aren't the ones people on here and in other debates have said.
The point, though, is that it doesn't necessarily matter how much they were being paid. If they weren't taking the jobs for less than other American citizens would take the jobs for, then the employers would have to pay enough for an American to take the job, whether that be $7.50/hour (or whatever minimum wage is now) or $20/hour. Some American citizen in the area would take the job for some amount of (reasonable) pay.

If not, then I would deem that your specific situation is SO unique and SO isolated that it would not have an large overall effect on the general American population, which is what our legislators and executives consider when placing laws and orders in effect. The discussion regards the United States as a whole, where there IS a problem with Americans losing work to illegal immigrants and other immigrants or refugees missing out on opportunities to enter the United States becuase of illegal immigration. It is not about whether in every single area this is a problem. Currently, I live in an incredibly white collar corporate area in the central United Sates. My city has basically no problem with illegal immigrations; however, I can still research and hypothesize on the effects it has elsewhere.
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  #12  
April 11th, 2012, 02:49 PM
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The places in MN where the illegals were working at (that my DH knew of) weren't going to offer the jobs for any more than they were already doing so because the jobs didn't require any skills or education. These were less than minimum wage jobs to begin with (or min wage). I'm assuming that things are done in the north differently regarding this than they are in the south, probably becasue there are far more illegals in the south then in the north.

ETA: Even when you have two Americans competing for the same job, if one will take the job for less they may get it instead of the other guy. My DH has turned down a few jobs before because the offer of wages was too low to be able to support us. That employer did not hike up the wage to get my DH, he instead hired someone else that would take the wage at the price he was offering.
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Last edited by HappyHippy; April 11th, 2012 at 02:56 PM.
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  #13  
April 11th, 2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
The places in MN where the illegals were working at (that my DH knew of) weren't going to offer the jobs for any more than they were already doing so because the jobs didn't require any skills or education. These were less than minimum wage jobs to begin with (or min wage). I'm assuming that things are done in the north differently regarding this than they are in the south, probably becasue there are far more illegals in the south then in the north.

ETA: Even when you have two Americans competing for the same job, if one will take the job for less they may get it instead of the other guy. My DH has turned down a few jobs before because the offer of wages was too low to be able to support us. That employer did not hike up the wage to get my DH, he instead hired someone else that would take the wage at the price he was offering.
How does someone get away with hiring people for a less than minimum wage job? That is illegal. And I disagree, if there is no one that applies for the job, the employer will either increase the wage offered until they get someone who will work for the pay, or decide that he doesn't need to fill the position. That is the problem with illegals working under the table for less than minimum.
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  #14  
April 11th, 2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fluffycheeks View Post
How does someone get away with hiring people for a less than minimum wage job? That is illegal. And I disagree, if there is no one that applies for the job, the employer will either increase the wage offered until they get someone who will work for the pay, or decide that he doesn't need to fill the position. That is the problem with illegals working under the table for less than minimum.
I don't know, I don't have all the answers, I can only share my DH's experience. As a business owner I can say that if I could only hire someone at x amount and no one was applying for it, I still wouldn't be able to increase the wage because I only have x amount that I can hire someone with to begin with. It's not that black and white. That's not all employers obviously, but smaller ones that many illegals work for are probably in that position.
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  #15  
April 11th, 2012, 06:28 PM
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Saying that you can't afford to pay employees a decent wage isn't an excuse to hire people for less than minimum wage. And it's really easy to do that in agriculture. It's called paying in cash and not taking out taxes.
When I lived in Virginia, legal Americans were MORE than willing to work in the tobacco fields, even high schoolers for as low as $5 an hour. I know this, because I did it myself when I was 17.
But owners of bigger farms would hire illegals and brag about it because the illegals had no avenue to complain or demand higher wages. They had to accept a cash under the table job because they had no tax ID, and they couldn't complain about not getting legal wages.
There were out of work AMERICANS willing to do that labor. And I'm sorry, but if paying minimum wage is going to break you, you suck at business and need to find a new career cuz numbers just aren't your thing.
And accepting a job for less than what a legal American would work for makes the immigrant themselves into a victim. Illegal immigration will never be a "victimless" crime.
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  #16  
April 11th, 2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by foxfire_ga79 View Post
Saying that you can't afford to pay employees a decent wage isn't an excuse to hire people for less than minimum wage. And it's really easy to do that in agriculture. It's called paying in cash and not taking out taxes.
When I lived in Virginia, legal Americans were MORE than willing to work in the tobacco fields, even high schoolers for as low as $5 an hour. I know this, because I did it myself when I was 17.
But owners of bigger farms would hire illegals and brag about it because the illegals had no avenue to complain or demand higher wages. They had to accept a cash under the table job because they had no tax ID, and they couldn't complain about not getting legal wages.
There were out of work AMERICANS willing to do that labor. And I'm sorry, but if paying minimum wage is going to break you, you suck at business and need to find a new career cuz numbers just aren't your thing.
And accepting a job for less than what a legal American would work for makes the immigrant themselves into a victim. Illegal immigration will never be a "victimless" crime.
That's not even what I said. I said that if I only have x amount to pay someone and no one applied for it *I wouldn't be able to increase the wage to get someone to apply*. I never once said that if I couldn't get someone to apply that I would then decrease the wages to hire an illegal immigrant.
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  #17  
April 11th, 2012, 08:54 PM
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Sorry if I misunderstood you, but from where I'm sitting it looks a lot like you're justifying paying low wages. Maybe I read it wrong.
MY point is that Americans are not all just going to stick their noses in the air at jobs that involve hard work. We just expect to be paid accordingly. Illegal immigrants with no tax ID aren't able to demand fairness for themselves so they and the legal US residents they displace are the victims.
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  #18  
April 12th, 2012, 08:03 AM
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No I'm not justying paying low wages. I was just sharing my experiences with illegal immigrants because in these debates it always seems black and white and that there is a blanket statement that goes across regarding illegals and jobs. But those statements were not DH's experience and he wanted me to share. DH said that some of the illegals he has worked with were the hardest and most loyal people he's worked with, they are just happy to be here instead of where they came from. I wasn't trying to justify paying a low wage because you can get an illegal to do it, I was just saying some of the smaller companies can only afford to pay a low amount and if no American applies for it then they will hire a illegal for that price. People do pass up jobs all the time.
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  #19  
April 12th, 2012, 09:09 AM
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It is black and white in this case. Pay a fair wage or don't hire, and don't hire people that are in this country illegally. How hard is that? If (general) you can't afford to pay what Americans consider a fair wage then your business isn't going anywhere.
People pass up jobs when the wages don't reflect the effort put into doing the job. Not because the people think they are too good to settle for that job.
You complain about blanket statements being made, but you're the one making them. You seem to think Americans are snubbing less than proud jobs that we think are beneath us and that's just so not the case. Illegal immigrants being hard working and loyal because they're so happy to be here doesn't really fit into this debate. Nobody ever said they didn't work hard.
Being willing to work for less than the value of the job skews the market, no matter how nice and loyal and hard working someone is or how good their intentions are.
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  #20  
April 12th, 2012, 05:37 PM
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Team Stacey all the way. If there weren't illegals to exploit there would be no such thing as taking jobs away from legals and paying below fair market value for labor. Also, as PP pointed out, illegals make it even harder for the ones who do try and do it the right way to gain access. When societies depend on citizens taxes, and not just the taxes paid by shopping and what not, you can't just have the liberty to live where you want without having to be legal or not. In an ideal world countries wouldn't have to depend on taxes to make society work, but the world is not ideal and our tax money helps keep our societies running.
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