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Father Beats Daughter's Molester To Death


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  #21  
June 15th, 2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
To the bold, I agree. Unlike Coach McQueary in the Sandusky case who saw a boy being raped and walked out the door.
Ex-coach McQueary testifies in Sandusky case - sportsnet.ca
Don't even get me started about that guy...there are moments in your life when you are presented a moral choice so significant that it transcends you & impacts others. That he didn't rescue that child in that moment is something I hope haunts him his entire life...
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  #23  
June 15th, 2012, 07:31 PM
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Small Texas community stands by man who killed daughter's alleged abuser - CNN.com

I don't think a grand jury is going to indict the dad.
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  #24  
June 16th, 2012, 07:40 AM
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There are a couple of things that bother me with this:
#1 - He is the only person here to tell the story, so you cannot 100% guarantee that this is the true version. All we have is the guy that killed someone's word, and I'm not comfortable with that.
#2 - I hope this doesn't set a tone and precedence that taking the law into your own hands is okay. I can buy into a temporary insanity defense, but not of self-defense.
#3 - I know the vast majority of people are behind this dad and applauding him, but we can't have people going around handing out vigilante justice. I know sex offenders = bad, but it still isn't our place to be the judge, jury and executioner.

Now, if the guy refused to get off the daughter and fought back against the dad, then we would have a case of self defense. It doesn't appear that this is the way it happened. Even the dad is expressing remorse, yet the general public seem to see nothing wrong with this. He's even admitting he acted in an extreme way by beating him to death.
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  #25  
June 16th, 2012, 07:47 AM
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Oh and for the record, I don't believe he should be charged under Texas Law.
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  #26  
June 16th, 2012, 12:28 PM
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He was on top of his daughter.... Are you telling me that if you saw someone doing the same thing to your daughter you wouldn't act in the same manner? Maybe not take it to the extent the guy did, but men have a lot of power behind them.
He obviously didn't have intentions of killing the guy, but when you see something like that happening to your baby girl, I suppose something just snaps in you.

I wouldn't wish this upon anyone, and can only imagine how the father felt when he walked in, and thank goodness he did!

And who would lie about a story like this? That is just sickening! I know it probably happens, but what a thing to lie about. Will there not be some evident of the story being true on the little girl?
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  #27  
June 16th, 2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
There are a couple of things that bother me with this:
#1 - He is the only person here to tell the story, so you cannot 100% guarantee that this is the true
version. All we have is the guy that killed someone's word, and I'm not comfortable with that.
First, the guy shows remorse, and felt bad not knowing the guy (as bad as he was) was going to die. There is NO way he was making this up and even if the "version" is just a little off, the heart of the story IMO is TRUE
#2 - I hope this doesn't set a tone and precedence that taking the law into your own hands is okay. I can buy into a temporary insanity defense, but not of self-defense.
Children are incapable of defending themselves, and therefore it's the PARENT'S JOB to protect them. This guy was protecting his child and thus it DOES fall under the self-defense umbrella. Sure, he can also claim temporary insanity, but he shouldn't even need to
#3 - I know the vast majority of people are behind this dad and applauding him, but we can't have people going around handing out vigilante justice. I know sex offenders = bad, but it still isn't our place to be the judge, jury and executioner.
The CRIME WAS IN PROGRESS- he stopped it. This isn't where he found out week later and pre-meditated a murder and went out and killed him. OF COURSE it's ok to stop someone's rape and THEN call 911. You don't let it "just happen" that's terribly irresponsible. You're a mom, GOD FORBID anything happened like that to YOUR child because you wouldn't be singing the same tune. You'd be killing the guy too and you know it.

Now, if the guy refused to get off the daughter and fought back against the dad, then we would have a case of self defense. It doesn't appear that this is the way it happened. Even the dad is expressing remorse, yet the general public seem to see nothing wrong with this. He's even admitting he acted in an extreme way by beating him to death.
The guy was committing a crime. The guy PULLED HIM OFF THE DAUGHTER and beat his ***. You don't give a man a "chance" to stop a crime-in progress! YOU STOP IT. The dad is expressing remorse because CLEARLY it was not intentional or pre-planned. He saw a crime in progress, and reacted. Now a guy is dead. **** happens, and he feels bad because while he was enraged, he never intended for the guy to die. But if a person's going to do disgusting crimes to people, they risk getting hurt/killed in the process.
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  #28  
June 16th, 2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
The guy was committing a crime. The guy PULLED HIM OFF THE DAUGHTER and beat his ***. You don't give a man a "chance" to stop a crime-in progress! YOU STOP IT. The dad is expressing remorse because CLEARLY it was not intentional or pre-planned. He saw a crime in progress, and reacted. Now a guy is dead. **** happens, and he feels bad because while he was enraged, he never intended for the guy to die. But if a person's going to do disgusting crimes to people, they risk getting hurt/killed in the process.
After he pulled him away from his daughter, the crime was no longer being committed. I'm assuming that the man didn't continue to try and go after the daughter after the father walked in. He didn't just beat his ***, he beat him hard enough with his fist to cause blunt trauma resulting in his death, that's not just giving someone a good *** whooping. I'm not sure if the daughter was still in the room, but I'm sure seeing her dad beat a man to death is not a good thing for a four year old to see. The heart of the story IN YOUR OPINION is true. I'd say it probably is as well, but how can be we be sure. We can't. People have lied about stranger things. Protecting her and killing the man are two different things. The man did not have to be beat to death to be incapacitated long enough for police to arrive. In a normal situation (and this is not), it would be excessive force. In this case, I think temporary insanity works (if they even charged him to begin with). Stopping it does not have to equal killing.
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  #29  
June 16th, 2012, 02:10 PM
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According to the sheriff, its defense of third party(in the cnn article Rebecca posted).

My guess would be that the pulling off/punching happened almost simultaneously so its not like dad took a few minutes to think about what he was doing.
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  #30  
June 16th, 2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
According to the sheriff, its defense of third party(in the cnn article Rebecca posted).

My guess would be that the pulling off/punching happened almost simultaneously so its not like dad took a few minutes to think about what he was doing.
Right, but he would have had to punch a significant amount of time to cause the man's death. What I'm saying is, one blow didn't kill him. So, he was taking a good beating that more than likely proceeded even after he was taken down/unconcious which resulted in his death. Even people that use objects to kill with blunt force trauma, have to hit the victim numerous times to kill them. This guy was young and strong, but this still would have been numerous blows.

I read that he said that about the defense of the third party, and like I said, under Texas law he's probably safe.
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  #31  
June 16th, 2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
Right, but he would have had to punch a significant amount of time to cause the man's death. What I'm saying is, one blow didn't kill him. So, he was taking a good beating that more than likely proceeded even after he was taken down/unconcious which resulted in his death. Even people that use objects to kill with blunt force trauma, have to hit the victim numerous times to kill them. This guy was young and strong, but this still would have been numerous blows.

I read that he said that about the defense of the third party, and like I said, under Texas law he's probably safe.
I didn't say one blow killed him. However, you don't know that dad was beating the guy well after he was unconcious. That's just supposition on your part. While dad admits to several blows, that could mean anywhere between 4 and 400. Fact is, dad admits hitting the guy. How many times? None of us know and probably dad wasn't counting. We also know that the victim was the little girl and this man will never try to molest another child.

Here's a little more info. As the guy's pants were down around his ankles, its likely dad was telling the truth.
Texas grand jury to review case of father who killed daughter's attacker | Reuters

Quote:
In court papers, Harmon said evidence found at the scene appeared to
substantiate the father's account.

"The man's pants and underwear were down and his genitals were exposed,"
Harmon said. "In addition, all of the physical evidence and several detailed
witness statements corroborated the father's statement."
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  #32  
June 16th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Texas penal code statute:
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and


(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:


(A) to protect the actor against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or


(B) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery…


(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used
is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.


He acted well within his rights.


Quote:
On the afternoon of June 9, Lavaca police responded to a 911 call to find Jesus Mora Flores, 64, dead from multiple injuries to the head and neck.

Investigator say Flores had been hired to help the father with his horses and had been invited to the home that day for a barbecue.

A witness told police that she observed Flores forcibly carrying a 5-year-old girl to a secluded area and alerted the child’s father, who rushed after them.

The father heard his daughter scream, ran towards her and found Flores attacking his child, according to investigators. He removed Flores from the top of the child and hit him on the neck and area.

"The physical evidence at the scene appeared to substantiate the father’s account. When emergency personnel arrived, Jesus Mora Flores’ pants and underwear were down and the man’s genitals were exposed," said Lavaca County Sheriff Micah Harmon.

Investigators conducted an autopsy, a physical and forensic exam of the child and heard several detailed witness accounts, which all corroborated the father’s statement, they said.
Grand jury to decide on indictment for father who beat to death daughter
This occurred during a party where there were multiple witnesses to corroborate his story. I think this father reacted like most other fathers (or parent, relative, friend, passerby) would when faced with the same scenario. I also don't think there is any reason to think his intent was to kill him, considering he only hit him with his hands, though, if it were me, my full intention would be to kill him.
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  #33  
June 16th, 2012, 05:54 PM
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I don't think he should be charged either.

I come from the unfortunate situation of one of my children has been sexually assaulted, had my husband or I been there, I can't say we would have been able to exercise any restraint or rational thinking.

I hope that the poor little girl gets help to deal with this, in the end, at the same moment she was sexually assulted (or raped, I don't think the details ever came out did they?) and she saw her father kill someone. That is a LOT for a child to take on in their head.
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  #34  
June 16th, 2012, 06:20 PM
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Like I said, he was within his rights according to Texas Law, but I can't get behind vigilante justice of any kind. I don't think his intent was to kill, and he will probably struggle with his actions even though they are justified. Trust me, I'm not sympathizing with this child molester, I'm actually of the opinion that there is no rehabilitation for them and they should all spend life in prison, I just don't want this to set a precedence for what is right and wrong when dealing with this kind of situation. And, a lot of people say they would do it, but I don't know how many people could/would actually kill a person with their bare hands. It'd be much easier if someone had a gun in the home, but I think the vast majority of people are incapable, be it for physical or mental reasons, of killing someone like this.
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  #35  
June 16th, 2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliek0211 View Post
Like I said, he was within his rights according to Texas Law, but I can't get behind vigilante justice of any kind. I don't think his intent was to kill, and he will probably struggle with his actions even though they are justified. Trust me, I'm not sympathizing with this child molester, I'm actually of the opinion that there is no rehabilitation for them and they should all spend life in prison, I just don't want this to set a precedence for what is right and wrong when dealing with this kind of situation. And, a lot of people say they would do it, but I don't know how many people could/would actually kill a person with their bare hands. It'd be much easier if someone had a gun in the home, but I think the vast majority of people are incapable, be it for physical or mental reasons, of killing someone like this.
But how is it even considered Vigilante justice?

As defined on Wikipedia: ""Vigilante justice" is rationalized by the idea that adequate legal mechanisms for criminal punishment are either nonexistent or insufficient. Vigilantes typically see government as ineffective in enforcing the law; and such individuals often presume to justify their actions as fulfillment of the wishes of "the community"."

Someone was trying to rape his daughter. He didn't believe he was above the law, or that the law was inadequate. He didn't stop to ponder "if I just tie him up, will his punishment be sufficient. Should I just take care of this for the state? Hmm.. I wonder... I need to think about it and weigh the odds."
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  #36  
June 16th, 2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plan4fate View Post
But how is it even considered Vigilante justice?

As defined on Wikipedia: ""Vigilante justice" is rationalized by the idea that adequate legal mechanisms for criminal punishment are either nonexistent or insufficient. Vigilantes typically see government as ineffective in enforcing the law; and such individuals often presume to justify their actions as fulfillment of the wishes of "the community"."

Someone was trying to rape his daughter. He didn't believe he was above the law, or that the law was inadequate. He didn't stop to ponder "if I just tie him up, will his punishment be sufficient. Should I just take care of this for the state? Hmm.. I wonder... I need to think about it and weigh the odds."
Yeah, I guess the semantics of it make it not the right term, but you get what I mean. He used deadly force in a non-deadly situation and took punishing the criminal into his own hands, assuming the threat was over after the man was removed from the child. I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of some states where if someone breaks in your house, you can't shoot them while they are retreating or you will get charged for killing them.
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  #37  
June 16th, 2012, 08:00 PM
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Leslie, I don't think he was thinking that he was punishing the molester. That guy was in the middle of sexually attacking a preschooler---The dad did what he thought he had to do in that very moment to completely remove the threat. Pulling the molester off the girl might have removed the threat from the girl, then the molester would have possibly tried to engage violently with the dad. So the dad headed that off before there was a chance for it to start. He didn't know if the molester would attack again or run away and he wasn't under any obligation to wait and find out.
I guess I just don't understand how this is setting a bad precedent. I don't think there are parents who are now hoping to catch someone trying to rape their kids so they get the chance to kill a sexual predator.
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  #38  
June 16th, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Leslie - i think i understand the distinction you're drawing....if we change the fact pattern here slightly, and instead of coming upon this man assaulting his child (for which i'm more than willing to give the father the benefit of the doubt that he became so enraged his act was a crime of passion, essentially) and instead after realizing his child has been assaulted he decides he's going to drive over to the criminal's house and beat him up (resulting in his death) that sort of taking the law into your own hands I totally disagree with. Lynch mobs and other type of judge/jury/executioner type of action is reprehensible and I wouldn't hesitate to convict of murder in that situation.
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  #39  
June 16th, 2012, 09:35 PM
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I do understand where you're coming from, with not being able to fully get behind this kind of "kill the killer" sort of mentality(yes I know the molester wasn't killing anyone, that's just typically where vigilante justice comes into play). The whole tit for tat thing is something that often leaves me sitting on the fence with some things.

This one, doesn't happen to do that to me. I feel the father was doing what he thought best at the time to protect his child. Do I think anyone should haul off and whack someone repeatedly that is committing a crime? No, not necessarily. But I do feel there are situations that will warrant it. Will it make that person's actions right, just because they were defending someone? No not really. An eye for an eye isn't really a good defense. But sometimes things happen where one negative action just might be warranted to fend off another. Sucks, but that's how things go sometimes. That's where I think this one falls.

It is entirely possible for one, two, even a few blows to kill someone. It's really not that difficult. It doesn't need to be repeated blow after blow, or even blow after blow once unconscious to cause enough damage to kill someone. It's not at all rare for even one hit to the head to cause significant damage, if not death. There is plenty of evidence out there on the web of this. I can completely see a few blows to the head causing significant enough trauma to kill someone, or render them brain dead anyway.
That's likely why the father says he feels remorse. He had NO intention of killing the man, hurting him sure, killing him or causing significant damage no. If he felt no remorse at all, I would likely be second guessing myself. The fact that he does, is proof enough to me that there wasn't any intent to cause serious harm, let alone death.(harm, and serious harm, not being the same thing, of course)
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  #40  
June 17th, 2012, 12:00 AM
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I don't see this as any form of vigilante justice. The father walked in, saw the man with his pants down and on top of his daughter and he reacted. I can't imagine that most other parents wouldn't have reacted somewhat violently in the same scenario.

I don't think I would be capable of killing a full grown man with my bare hands, as he did, but I would have fought him with every thing that I had in me and, personally, if I had to IMAGINE what my feelings would be, I would be INTENT on killing the person that was trying to rape my child.
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