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Paid maternity leave yay or nay


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  #21  
July 22nd, 2012, 07:26 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluga View Post
What I find most amazing is that the people in the country are so much against this. I've never thought of the paid maternity leave to be so the mom can just play but for the good of the child.
Big government always uses "its for the children" to gain more control over people's lives and money. Its not the taxpayers job to help me stay home with my children. Its mine.
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  #22  
July 22nd, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
It is not penalizing women who don't or can't have children. It is there to help women recover from birth (which typically takes up to 12 months to completely heal the womb, etc) and to let babies be with their mothers. That is important. The US pushes women to be back into the work force just weeks after giving birth. Many times they are still bleeding from lochia, which is not good to work while that is still going (typically 4-8 weeks). The AAP says a baby should be exclusively breastfed for the first 6 months of life and then continue to BF for atleast 1 year, while the CDC and WHO says to continue to atleast 2 years. Well it's really hard to do that when you're working, especially if you work full time. Mothers really need to be allowed the time to heal, to breastfeed, and to be with their babies. If you don't want to have children, that is fine, you don't get any mother/child benefits from that choice. Childless people don't get child taxes back either, or extra time off for a sick child or get off early for teach parent meetings. That's just part of life and I don't see that as penalizing someone who made a choice not to have kids or can't have kids. I see it as fair giving into each circumstance (in this case the choice to have children).

ETA: I have childless friends where I live, mainly from choice, and they don't care that new moms get (I think it's like 9 months here) paid leave to be with their babies. They actually think that's nice.

How is it NOT penalizing women who choose not to have children? They would have to pay into a system that would provide an extended paid maternity leave for mothers to be with their children, something that many of them are choosing to never take advantage of. Shouldn't there then be a paid leave for all of those women who have to support other women's decision to have children?

If I choose to have a child and I want to stay at home for the first year because it's what is best for my child, it should be MY responsibility to figure out how to make that happen, not every tax payers responsibility to make sure that I will have the opportunity. Nobody HAS to have a child. It is a privilege, not a right.
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  #23  
July 22nd, 2012, 02:52 PM
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here's the details for Canada. It goes through the unemployment system, in case anyone wants a read.

Employment Insurance Maternity and Parental Benefits

And honestly, I don't see it as any different as using unemployment because you got laid off, or using it because you're hurt (which is also an option in Canada).


But I do not think it's possible in the US right now... some states just cannot afford it. And there are a lot of things that need to be worked on for the people (like health care, enough jobs....jobs with living wages etc.) before maternity leave can ever come to the table as a reality.
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  #24  
July 22nd, 2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluga View Post
I realize that this is hard for businesses, esp. small businesses which is why I clearly stated that in the model I described it is in no way the responsibility of the business. Now why you guys keep going back to having the business foot the bill I cant for the life of me comprehend.




I think that possibly US suffers from spending their money badly. I just wonder sometimes how a small 5 million European country can pull of what US cant and add things like free healthcare, education etc.



If you have a child in Finland you get the money. If you have another child within 3 years of the first you get the full 10 months of maternity leave again without having to work in between. Now for some reason having great system like that does not encourage people to pop out babies like a factory. As a matter of fact Finland suffers from ageing population and birth rates are decreasing a lot. I dont think the reason is different cultures.



What I dont get though is what is so dramatically different about US, one of the richest countries that they cannot provide this for babies that so many other countries can.



So you have taken assistance but the assistance that would have allowed you to stay at home with your child for say 6 months would have been too much?

I realize that we're never going to see eye to eye on this. I am just continually so baffled over this. I have tried to understand your point of view but it just completely escapes me.
It baffles you because you don't live here. You don't understand the economic crisis in this country. In fact most people who live here don't even understand it. I sure as hell don't understand it all. But I won't pretend the fact that I don't understand somehow makes it nonexistent. It exists, that is a fact. That is the root of exactly why this program could not work in this country today, or anytime soon. Until the financial crisis we see today is resolved it simply cannot work. I may have listed numerous reasons why but this really is the root of it.

I have absolutely no clue what the bolded part of your reply even means, much less addresses, you're going to need to clarify it for me.
I didn't say taking assistance that would have allowed me to be home for 6 months is too much. Where on earth did you even get that from? I have taken the assistance this country provides, like MANY us households, when I absolutely needed it. I have also managed just peachy without needing it as well.
Would I, ideally like a program like this, umm yeah most people would. But ideal isn't reality. I live in reality.
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  #25  
July 22nd, 2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
Big government always uses "its for the children" to gain more control over people's lives and money. Its not the taxpayers job to help me stay home with my children. Its mine.
I'm 100% for my taxes going towards a longer job secured maternity leave.
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  #26  
July 22nd, 2012, 04:58 PM
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All I can say is I am grateful to be living in Canada, because I feel that the government in some ways values the same things I value as a citizen. I have NEVER heard anyone from any country say 'I wish we were given less parental leave benefits'

As parental benefits here do come out of EI (which I am currently on, for moving with a spouse to a jobless and economically depressed area) I will likely not get any benefits when we have children, but I am appreciative that the option is there for my husband to stay home with pay if he so chooses. And if you don't want to stay home, you're absolutely not required to take all of the time offered.

I do like that we have choices regarding childcare, regardless who they are funded by. I would rather pay for a parent who wants to stay home and care for their small child, any day over a capable worker who chooses to be on assistance because getting a job would cut into their drinking/drug using/video gaming/socializing time... wouldn't you?
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  #27  
July 22nd, 2012, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by crunchywannabe View Post
I would rather pay for a parent who wants to stay home and care for their small child, any day over a capable worker who chooses to be on assistance because getting a job would cut into their drinking/drug using/video gaming/socializing time... wouldn't you?
You could as well be paying for a parent who has kids after kids to maximize their maternity leave/gov. parental checks. Or for a capable worker who's trying to get work but has fallen on hard times. Nothing is nearly as black and white as your comment makes it sound. Sure, it looks more 'noble' to fund a program that exists to stimulate the birthrate but abuse can be found in all governement funded programs.
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  #28  
July 22nd, 2012, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Babybear4 View Post
How is it NOT penalizing women who choose not to have children? They would have to pay into a system that would provide an extended paid maternity leave for mothers to be with their children, something that many of them are choosing to never take advantage of. Shouldn't there then be a paid leave for all of those women who have to support other women's decision to have children?

If I choose to have a child and I want to stay at home for the first year because it's what is best for my child, it should be MY responsibility to figure out how to make that happen, not every tax payers responsibility to make sure that I will have the opportunity. Nobody HAS to have a child. It is a privilege, not a right.
How is it penalizing women who choose not to have kids? penalize - definition of penalize by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. The definition of penalize is punishing someone. No one is punishing them for not having kids. They pay into taxes just like the working moms do (in Italy the maternity leave comes through social security). Everyone who works pays taxes for so many things that they may not agree with, that doesn't mean you're being punished for it. The taxes that gets paid to maternity leave are probably small, just like with everything.

I don't see a handful of months (usually 5-12 months in Europe depending on where you live) being extended. The body needs that time to heal. Maternity leave is not just so mom can stay home with baby, but to RECOVER from childbirth, which takes longer than a few weeks. Mom staying home with baby for awhile not only helps babies, families and mothers, but also the community. Higher BFing rate which means healthier babies (in general) which means lower health care costs. It also helps daycares not be over flowing with young babies (like many in the US are).

Moms who take maternity leave are WORKING mothers, they paid into the system just like anyone else has done.

Again, childless women don't care that they pay taxes for moms to stay home. We work together as a community, not everyone for themselves like the US does.
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  #29  
July 22nd, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Paid maternity leave: moms STAY HOME and get PAID after paying into a system=GAIN for them based on their choice

Childless woman: pays into system and gets NOTHING in return for their choice

In my book, that is penalizing the childless woman.

Just as if I let one kid do something special for no reason and didn't let the other kid, I would view that a punishing/penalizing the one not allowed to do something special.

What if a childless woman wanted to take a year off to travel? Should she get paid for that? I'm sure all people would say no!

There is a HUGE difference from holding a woman's job and offering her time off. I would have no problem with a longer timeframe for that, like 12 weeks. But PAID time off is a totally different thing.
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  #30  
July 22nd, 2012, 10:27 PM
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You could as well be paying for a parent who has kids after kids to maximize their maternity leave/gov. parental checks. Or for a capable worker who's trying to get work but has fallen on hard times. Nothing is nearly as black and white as your comment makes it sound. Sure, it looks more 'noble' to fund a program that exists to stimulate the birthrate but abuse can be found in all governement funded programs.
I guess that is the difference between Maternity leave being government funded through taxes, or funded through employment insurance, like it is in Canada. Of course there are gonna be bad apples in any crowd, and abuse of every system is a real concern. That said I just can't imagine anyone who is about to have a child NOT WANTING any maternity benefits... or thinking that they will receive too much time off (with or without pay) The idea that the world is gonna be fair for everybody is just not the reality. There will always be someone who draws the short end of the stick because of the choices they make. whether you are married, single, childless, have children, are empty nesters, care for an aging parent... there will always be someone who gets a break when you are stuck trudging through crap at your job, or in life.
I feel awfully lucky because regardless of potential flaws I like the system we have here, I think it works well, and I hope that there isn't any regression regarding the steps taken to benefit those who choose to stay home (at least until the maternity benefits run out) I think that countries with less family based benefits would benefit from a system like this, given they are in a financially stable position to begin with.
I personally don't see any problem with a family choosing to have multiple children back to back to back and claiming benefits to stay home, here however you must have enough hours banked at your job to qualify for EI (mat leave or otherwise) and that would be impossible to do without returning to work between children.
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  #31  
July 23rd, 2012, 06:53 AM
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I'm quite familiar with maternity leave in Quebec, seeing as I'm on it currently
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  #33  
July 23rd, 2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kris~ View Post
Paid maternity leave: moms STAY HOME and get PAID after paying into a system=GAIN for them based on their choice

Childless woman: pays into system and gets NOTHING in return for their choice

In my book, that is penalizing the childless woman.

Just as if I let one kid do something special for no reason and didn't let the other kid, I would view that a punishing/penalizing the one not allowed to do something special.

What if a childless woman wanted to take a year off to travel? Should she get paid for that? I'm sure all people would say no!

There is a HUGE difference from holding a woman's job and offering her time off. I would have no problem with a longer timeframe for that, like 12 weeks. But PAID time off is a totally different thing.
12 weeks is hardly enough time to recover, to be honest. Just because you me feel fine at 12 weeks doesn't mean your body really is. There are many benefits to a mother staying home for much more than 12 weeks, that will benefit everyone as I explained in my earlier post.

Like I said, we all pay taxes that goes to a bunch of things we never use. Saying it penalizes childless women is like saying that paying taxes towards welfare penalizes those who never use it. It doesn't.

Yes I think anyone, man or woman, should be allowed to take time off for what they have paid into. That could be a few weeks to a year depending on how much time they have accumilated, and some businesses do allow that if you've worked x amount of years with no time off, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilymagic View Post
There are two questions I've always had about this. First, who does your job while you're gone, and what happens to them when you get back? Because that job you're doing, it has to get done. And the person that brought in to replace you, where do they go when you come back?

Second, what about women who *gasp* don't want to stay home? I was one, still am, I started going batty around week 6 of mat leave (I got 10 weeks paid). I like to work. I like what I do. And the idea of staying home for a year with baby, makes me itchy. I already have to stand around and defend myself that I don't stay at home (we could tighten our belts and swing it), contesntly saying "Of course I love my children", which annoys me to no end because no one with a penis ever has to denfend that he loves his kids even though he works. So if now the government is willing to pay for me to take a year and I don't, what kind of crap am I (and other women who want to work) going to put up with?

And what about dads? Don't they need to bond? Shouldn't we have paid paternity leave as well?

And (ok I lied about two questions), what about people who adopt? Are they up for the longer paid mat leave? Don't they need to bond with their babies/children?

I'm not neccessarily against it. I see the pros, but I see the cons as well. I don't think right now, the US should estbilish something. Eventually, something, could be nice. But I do worry about people taking advantage of the system. If it works like unemployment, I could be ok with it. You pay into when you are working, taken when you have baby, and then go back to working (or quit reciving money). Rather then just applying and reciving because you gave birth. If you aren't working between the kiddos, you aren't getting a dime.

I work at home for myself so I can't speak for every job out there, but many places will hire a part time employee (like a seasonal worker for that time), or other people cover those shifts. It really depends what the job is.

You do not have to take time off. Maternity leave is not forced upon you, it is your choice. If you wish to take time off, and it doesn't have to be the maximum allowed, you have to fill out some paperwork and then you can. If you don't want to then you don't fill out paperwork or do and only take a few weeks off.

Dads can get paid paternity leave too, it works just like maternity leave. There is a maximum amount that can be done, so if you have lets say 9 months, mom can take off 6 moms and dad can take off 3 months.
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  #34  
July 23rd, 2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
12 weeks is hardly enough time to recover, to be honest. Just because you me feel fine at 12 weeks doesn't mean your body really is. There are many benefits to a mother staying home for much more than 12 weeks, that will benefit everyone as I explained in my earlier post.

Like I said, we all pay taxes that goes to a bunch of things we never use. Saying it penalizes childless women is like saying that paying taxes towards welfare penalizes those who never use it. It doesn't.

Yes I think anyone, man or woman, should be allowed to take time off for what they have paid into. That could be a few weeks to a year depending on how much time they have accumilated, and some businesses do allow that if you've worked x amount of years with no time off, etc.




I work at home for myself so I can't speak for every job out there, but many places will hire a part time employee (like a seasonal worker for that time), or other people cover those shifts. It really depends what the job is.

You do not have to take time off. Maternity leave is not forced upon you, it is your choice. If you wish to take time off, and it doesn't have to be the maximum allowed, you have to fill out some paperwork and then you can. If you don't want to then you don't fill out paperwork or do and only take a few weeks off.

Dads can get paid paternity leave too, it works just like maternity leave. There is a maximum amount that can be done, so if you have lets say 9 months, mom can take off 6 moms and dad can take off 3 months.
You keep talking about how mothers need that time for their body to recover but what I don't think you are understanding about MY argument is that it is THEIR OWN CHOICE to get pregnant and give birth to a child. Why should the country have to fund that choice?
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  #35  
July 23rd, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
Yes I think anyone, man or woman, should be allowed to take time off for what they have paid into. That could be a few weeks to a year depending on how much time they have accumilated, and some businesses do allow that if you've worked x amount of years with no time off, etc.
If you are talking businesses who offer maternity leave as part of their benefits package, thats one thing. Taxpayers paying someone to be a stay at home parent is quite another and basically welfare.
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  #36  
July 23rd, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Babybear4 View Post
You keep talking about how mothers need that time for their body to recover but what I don't think you are understanding about MY argument is that it is THEIR OWN CHOICE to get pregnant and give birth to a child. Why should the country have to fund that choice?
It doesn't matter if it's a choice or not (not all pregnancies happen because a woman made a choice to become pregnant), a woman still needs her body to recover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
If you are talking businesses who offer maternity leave as part of their benefits package, thats one thing. Taxpayers paying someone to be a stay at home parent is quite another and basically welfare.
Maternity leave and being a SAHM are two different things.
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  #37  
July 23rd, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
Like I said, we all pay taxes that goes to a bunch of things we never use. Saying it penalizes childless women is like saying that paying taxes towards welfare penalizes those who never use it. It doesn't.
While there is truth in that people pay into things they will never use, the number of people having kids FAR exceeds the number of people who apply and qualify for welfare. Additionally, most people have kids because they truly want them while people who collect welfare are doing so becasue they NEED to, not because they want to.

Plain and simple, having kids is a WANT, not a need. If you want to stay home with them afterwards, then find a way to pay for it yourself.
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  #38  
July 23rd, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Just crunching some rough numbers here.

US has ~4 million births per year @ $7.25 minimum wage/hour x 40 hrs per week x 52 weeks a year, the US would need $60,320,000,000 to pay for that.

Even divided by the approximately 170,000,000 tax returns filed, that's ~$350/year of extra taxes to be paid. But let's remember that nearly half of tax filers do not actually pay taxes, so you're looking at double that for the people who actually pay!

Of course, that's assuming people would be content with receiving minimum wage for that year.
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  #39  
July 23rd, 2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lilymagic View Post
There are two questions I've always had about this. First, who does your job while you're gone, and what happens to them when you get back? Because that job you're doing, it has to get done. And the person that brought in to replace you, where do they go when you come back?

Second, what about women who *gasp* don't want to stay home? I was one, still am, I started going batty around week 6 of mat leave (I got 10 weeks paid). I like to work. I like what I do. And the idea of staying home for a year with baby, makes me itchy. I already have to stand around and defend myself that I don't stay at home (we could tighten our belts and swing it), contesntly saying "Of course I love my children", which annoys me to no end because no one with a penis ever has to denfend that he loves his kids even though he works. So if now the government is willing to pay for me to take a year and I don't, what kind of crap am I (and other women who want to work) going to put up with?

And what about dads? Don't they need to bond? Shouldn't we have paid paternity leave as well?

And (ok I lied about two questions), what about people who adopt? Are they up for the longer paid mat leave? Don't they need to bond with their babies/children?

I'm not neccessarily against it. I see the pros, but I see the cons as well. I don't think right now, the US should estbilish something. Eventually, something, could be nice. But I do worry about people taking advantage of the system. If it works like unemployment, I could be ok with it. You pay into when you are working, taken when you have baby, and then go back to working (or quit reciving money). Rather then just applying and reciving because you gave birth. If you aren't working between the kiddos, you aren't getting a dime.
Maybe I can answer some questions you have.

1. The person doing my job right now has accepted the contract that covers my maternity leave. She knows when her employment will end and its her responsibility to find another job afterwards.
If I decided to come back to work early, I need to give 2 months notice to my employer.

2. You don't have to take it. In Quebec, you can opt for the long leave, the short leave or only take the amount you want and go straight back to work. It's up to you to decide how you want to take your leave.

3. Dads get 5 weeks paternity leave (in Quebec) and can share the rest of the parental leave with the mother however they see fit.

4. If you adopt, you get the same maternity leave that any parent has.

Bonus answer, if something happened to the baby and you had a stillbirth, you still qualify for the maternity part of the leave (18 weeks) so you can heal both mentally and physically.

But this applies to the parental leave in Quebec. Not sure how it's played out in other provinces.
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  #40  
July 23rd, 2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kris~ View Post
While there is truth in that people pay into things they will never use, the number of people having kids FAR exceeds the number of people who apply and qualify for welfare. Additionally, most people have kids because they truly want them while people who collect welfare are doing so becasue they NEED to, not because they want to.

Plain and simple, having kids is a WANT, not a need. If you want to stay home with them afterwards, then find a way to pay for it yourself.
Maternity leave is not welfare. Having a baby may not be a need, but recovering from childbirth is a need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kris~ View Post
Just crunching some rough numbers here.

US has ~4 million births per year @ $7.25 minimum wage/hour x 40 hrs per week x 52 weeks a year, the US would need $60,320,000,000 to pay for that.

Even divided by the approximately 170,000,000 tax returns filed, that's ~$350/year of extra taxes to be paid. But let's remember that nearly half of tax filers do not actually pay taxes, so you're looking at double that for the people who actually pay!

Of course, that's assuming people would be content with receiving minimum wage for that year.
Not all those people are working mothers, and maternity leave is not 100% of your original pay.
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