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The appropriate way to teach kids about religion


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  #41  
August 8th, 2012, 07:05 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHippy View Post
^ Except you have no idea that your religioun is truth. There are so many flaws in religioun. And not letting them have free reign on what they believe? Wow. That's basically saying they can't be their own person.

What do you mean when you say there are flaws in religion? Also, what do you mean when you say it isn't letting a child be his own person to not give them free reign? That is silly - we are the parents - it is our duty to instruct and guide our children. I cannot imagine someone trying to tell my I am not letting my child be his own person because i do not let him act certain ways or because I am instruct him to behave a certain way because of xyz. It kind of cracks me up because in one sense our society now lets kids get away with being childish for way too long and then in another sense there is no this popular notion that young children should not be treated like children as far as instruction goes but they should be allowed to do anything and think anything and anything goes.
It is also curious if you compare this shift in thought with how our education system has gone into the crapper. It used to be that children were instructed in the early ages on what to think and how to act in the early years and then as they grew older the dialectic and rhetoric was introduced. And it worked very well - you had students who became young adults who not only had a large base of knowledge stored up but also had learned critical thinking skills.
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  #42  
August 8th, 2012, 07:27 AM
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As a parent I will do what I believe is best for my children. I will make my children brush their teeth because it is good for them. It will keep them healthy. They may not want to do it but I will get them to brush their teeth because it is for their best. I will take my children to church and teach them my faith because I feel it is for their best. I will teach my children to be tolerant of others however I will also teach them what I believe to be right. It is not my job as a parent to give my children everything they want to make them happy it is to guide them and teach them.

I have no children on Earth, hopefully I will eventually, but these are my thoughts as a mother of two babies in heaven, as an aunt, and as a teacher.
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  #43  
August 8th, 2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Yes, history is history but you might be surprised how much you find in history book is a bunch of crap. It cracks me up how people just assume that what they read in their history texts book is correct. There is no shortage of disagreements about history. Just the other day I was talking to someone about Galileo and he thought the Catholic Church had a problem with Galileo because he said the earth was round. I couldn't believe it, but he insisted because he had learned it in school. I learned some crazy things in my texts books about the explorers, about European history etc. Yes, history is history but you are super naive if you think it is that straight forward.
yes, and would you please go to all the nations of that world that don't value men and women equally and just simply tell them to just follow logic and reason - it would same a lot of women a lot of pain and suffering.
I didn't say anything about history books. I said video footage. Of ditches of dead bodes, gas chambers, dangerously skinny victims being rescued, etc. I concentrated in history for my major so I know all about how you can't just believe everything you read in a history book.

Those countries aren't being logical or reasonable in this instance. They are following customs and *gasp* religions that allow for such. In a lot of ways they treat women that way because that's tradition and people are uncomfortable stepping away from tradition. Along with this, the men do not want to give up the power they have. As humans we tend to want to hold on to our power once we get it. I can't tell them anything that's going to change that.
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  #44  
August 8th, 2012, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Yes, history is history but you might be surprised how much you find in history book is a bunch of crap. It cracks me up how people just assume that what they read in their history texts book is correct. There is no shortage of disagreements about history. Just the other day I was talking to someone about Galileo and he thought the Catholic Church had a problem with Galileo because he said the earth was round. I couldn't believe it, but he insisted because he had learned it in school. I learned some crazy things in my texts books about the explorers, about European history etc. Yes, history is history but you are super naive if you think it is that straight forward.
yes, and would you please go to all the nations of that world that don't value men and women equally and just simply tell them to just follow logic and reason - it would same a lot of women a lot of pain and suffering.
I'd love some links to back up what you're saying please. Because the ONLY people I've ever met who believe what you're saying are the ones who find no fault in their religion. History books say he was convicted for believing that the earth was not the center of the universe.
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  #45  
August 8th, 2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by plan4fate View Post
I'd love some links to back up what you're saying please. Because the ONLY people I've ever met who believe what you're saying are the ones who find no fault in their religion. History books say he was convicted for believing that the earth was not the center of the universe.
Yeah if I remember correctly they wouldn't even let him be buried in the same place as his family (the main part of the basilica) and instead had him buried in some small room off in a corner somewhere. He wasn't reburied with his family till like 100 years later. Or maybe we just made that up too...
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  #46  
August 8th, 2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plan4fate View Post
I'd love some links to back up what you're saying please. Because the ONLY people I've ever met who believe what you're saying are the ones who find no fault in their religion. History books say he was convicted for believing that the earth was not the center of the universe.
I guess I don't get your point - yes, the history book are wrong - some may say that is was about the earth being the center of the universe. We can agree on that. or are you saying you believe that that is why he was convicted? Again, that just proves my point. This is a whole other topic but when it comes to history we should read original sources.

eta: I don't think I should have to do your research for you. But, I can give you some examples of original sources to go to if you are interested. Just to name a couple: Galileo's Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina, Galileo's Dialogue on the Two World Systems, the writings of Urban the VIII, letters written by Galileo's friend Nicolini written in feb and april of 1633.
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  #47  
August 8th, 2012, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Frozenoj View Post

Those countries aren't being logical or reasonable in this instance. They are following customs and *gasp* religions that allow for such. In a lot of ways they treat women that way because that's tradition and people are uncomfortable stepping away from tradition. Along with this, the men do not want to give up the power they have. As humans we tend to want to hold on to our power once we get it. I can't tell them anything that's going to change that.

I think we are misunderstanding eachother. Will you teach your kids that men and women are equal because that is the customs in our society and what we believe as a society or because you believe to be objectively true? Are you claiming there is objective truth in matters of the value of the human person but that there is no objective truth when it comes to religion? Jesus either walked the Earth or he didn't. Jesus was either God or He wasn't. I could go on and on. So, you feel comfortable teaching your children what you believe to be objective truth as long as it is your truth? I don't get what you are saying.
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  #48  
August 8th, 2012, 10:09 AM
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In a debate, when someone asks for references, it's not their job to go and look up the information. it's your job to show where you got your information. Just saying. So while thank you for the titles, they aren't the links to back up what you're talking about, I still have to go do the work to back up YOUR comments.


When I tried to teach Reme that Jesus rose from the dead he got freaked out that Jesus was a zombie. So ya, I think I'll probably skip that lesson in the future and just say his soul went to heaven regardless of what the church and bible says. I don't need another kid with nightmares.
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  #49  
August 8th, 2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I guess I don't get your point - yes, the history book are wrong - some may say that is was about the earth being the center of the universe. We can agree on that. or are you saying you believe that that is why he was convicted? Again, that just proves my point. This is a whole other topic but when it comes to history we should read original sources.
If he wasn't convicted for heresy, what was he convicted for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I think we are misunderstanding eachother. Will you teach your kids that men and women are equal because that is the customs in our society and what we believe as a society or because you believe to be objectively true? Are you claiming there is objective truth in matters of the value of the human person but that there is no objective truth when it comes to religion? Jesus either walked the Earth or he didn't. Jesus was either God or He wasn't. I could go on and on. So, you feel comfortable teaching your children what you believe to be objective truth as long as it is your truth? I don't get what you are saying.
I believe in objective truth but I don't believe we can always know that truth. I don't see how we can ever really know until we die and find out. Until then the most we can do is make an educated guess. Since I am fallible and this is potentially such an important decision I don't think it's fair to my kids to claim my beliefs are the truth rather than letting them make the decision on their own based on the evidence available.
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  #50  
August 8th, 2012, 10:25 AM
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So because DH wanted to see it, we looked up some of what you said. And what we find still says that he was convicted of hearsay, with his beliefs in the stationary sun and mobile earth as one of the many reasons.

in 2000 the pope apologized for the wrongs of the church: Pope says sorry for sins of church | World news | The Guardian

Quote:
Seeking forgiveness has been a leitmotif of his papacy since his election in 1978. He has apologised for the crusades, the massacre of French Protestants, the trial of Galileo and anti-semitism.
So they apologized for what they did to the poor man, but it didn't really happen according to you?
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  #51  
August 8th, 2012, 10:38 AM
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So letter's to Nicolini. He recanted his beliefs - that was part of his punishment. He wasn't tortured or imprisoned harshly, I'd never once been told that he had been. He was placed under house arrest, exactly what I'd been taught in school.

So far your links aren't convincing me that what I've been taught, that they convited him of Hearsay, was wrong.
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  #52  
August 8th, 2012, 11:08 AM
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I never said that the Church handled the whole situation in the correct way or that an apology wasn't appropriate did I? I am not interested in the truth only if it serves me - I am interested in the truth for the sake of truth.
I didn't bring up Galileo to start a debate about it - it was just the first example I thought of how text books get it wrong or only give a portion of the story. I found, on the internet especially, people just do google searches until they find something that backs up what they want to believe. I'm not interested in that. I won't lose any sleep if I don't convince you the Church's problem with Galileo wasn't that he had a heliocentric hypothesis. They asked him to not try and interpret scriptures for the masses and they asked him to recognize that it was just a hypothesis until more data could be collected (he thought the planets orbited the sun in circles and there was data that contradicted that part) but he would not comply. The difference is that the Church is often made out to be anti science or automatically against things that challenged what they believe to be true. If you really read those documents and others, you will see that the Church did not deny that what he claimed could be correct - the trouble came from the timing, the lack of acknowlegment that it was a hypothesis at that point - which it was - and that Galileo tried to interpret scripture as an authority figure.
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  #53  
August 8th, 2012, 11:40 AM
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I am raising my children in my religion. Evangelical Lutheran. It is a Christian religion that recognizes other religions & recognized that no one has all the answers. We acknowledge we may not have it 100% right. We do not believe that our way is the only way. There are multiple paths to God (or Allah or whatever the higher power may be named)

That being said, I am not forcing my religion on my kids. I take them to church & Sunday school so they are exposed to it. I don't drag them there kicking & screaming like a giant time out. Exposing a child to religion isn't forcing them. If at some point, they decide that they no longer want to participate, I will respect that decision no matter how young they are.

Using the soccer example, there is a difference between signing your kid up for soccer & encouraging them to try it and making them play. I don't understand why teaching your kids religion is forcing it on them. I teach my kids a lot of things that they will never use in their adult lives. That doesn't mean I shouldn't teach it because at this point, I don't know what path they are going to take and what they might need to know.
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  #54  
August 8th, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Frozenoj View Post


I believe in objective truth but I don't believe we can always know that truth. I don't see how we can ever really know until we die and find out. Until then the most we can do is make an educated guess. Since I am fallible and this is potentially such an important decision I don't think it's fair to my kids to claim my beliefs are the truth rather than letting them make the decision on their own based on the evidence available.
So, I'm still trying to figure out what you are saying. Are you saying you believe that it is a truth that men and women are equal but because we can't ever know the truth until we die you won't claim that to be a truth to your kids - just that you believe it to be the truth? Or are you saying that the fact that men and women are equal is a truth that you can be sure of before you die but other truths you cannot know? If that is the case, how do you determine what truths you can know and which ones you can't? And are you claiming to know what truths can be understood by everyone and which ones can't or are you just saying that some truths YOU feel comfortable teaching as such and others you aren't so sure about?
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  #55  
August 8th, 2012, 12:16 PM
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The thing that is being overlooked here is that, for people who are strongly religious, it is fact.
The only way I can explain this is to compare it to love. You love your child/children. Can you prove it? Can you show it to me? No. You have no physical evidence and yet it is a guiding force in your life. You would not tell you child. I beleive I love you and that love exists but you can beleive whatever you want. You love is real, it is a fact, you know this because you can feel it.
This is what faith is for many people. Some things I know because I can feel it. I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it. It would be like trying to explain love to someone who hadn't felt it. People call it many things: confirmation of spirit, convertion, still small vioce. Whatever you call it there is a feeling like nothing else that confirms to you when something is real.
We teach our children the way we beleive is best. Even if that means teaching them no religion at all. It doesnt make any of us more or less intelegent. In the end our children, ALL of our children WILL make up their own minds. No matter what we teach them. I hear so many people talk of how they would never "force" their children into specific beleifs because thats what their parents did. Obviously, whatever your parents did, you made your own choices. We arent talking brain washing here just try to be the best parent we can.
It is not my place to decide weather your parenting choices are correct and its not any of your place to belittle someone else for stating what they beleive.
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  #56  
August 8th, 2012, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
What do you mean when you say there are flaws in religion? Also, what do you mean when you say it isn't letting a child be his own person to not give them free reign? That is silly - we are the parents - it is our duty to instruct and guide our children. I cannot imagine someone trying to tell my I am not letting my child be his own person because i do not let him act certain ways or because I am instruct him to behave a certain way because of xyz. It kind of cracks me up because in one sense our society now lets kids get away with being childish for way too long and then in another sense there is no this popular notion that young children should not be treated like children as far as instruction goes but they should be allowed to do anything and think anything and anything goes.
It is also curious if you compare this shift in thought with how our education system has gone into the crapper. It used to be that children were instructed in the early ages on what to think and how to act in the early years and then as they grew older the dialectic and rhetoric was introduced. And it worked very well - you had students who became young adults who not only had a large base of knowledge stored up but also had learned critical thinking skills.
There are tons of flaws in EVERY religioun. I don't have the time now to dig up links because I'm on my way out, but maybe I can tonight. The Bible itself has flaws in it because it says one thing here and then says the opposite thing here. Yes I've read the Bible as I use to attend church and Sunday School as a child.

I guide my children as well. I let them know what is right and wrong based on our society/laws/etc. But I do not tell them what to think. Instead I give them guidence and resources about all the different things out there, even religioun, and let them decide what they believe. Since I homeschool them I am big on research and facts, but I also know in some subjects, religioun being one of them, we don't have facts. We can come to a conclusion, and we can believe in what we'd like, but we can't say "this is fact" because it's not proven to be fact.

I don't care if my children want to be Jewish, Catholic, Islamic or Athiest (and so on). Those are all valid in my opinion and it is a belief that anyone has the right to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anexia View Post
The thing that is being overlooked here is that, for people who are strongly religious, it is fact.
The only way I can explain this is to compare it to love. You love your child/children. Can you prove it? Can you show it to me? No. You have no physical evidence and yet it is a guiding force in your life. You would not tell you child. I beleive I love you and that love exists but you can beleive whatever you want. You love is real, it is a fact, you know this because you can feel it.
This is what faith is for many people. Some things I know because I can feel it. I don't know if I can describe it to someone who hasn't felt it. It would be like trying to explain love to someone who hadn't felt it. People call it many things: confirmation of spirit, convertion, still small vioce. Whatever you call it there is a feeling like nothing else that confirms to you when something is real.
We teach our children the way we beleive is best. Even if that means teaching them no religion at all. It doesnt make any of us more or less intelegent. In the end our children, ALL of our children WILL make up their own minds. No matter what we teach them. I hear so many people talk of how they would never "force" their children into specific beleifs because thats what their parents did. Obviously, whatever your parents did, you made your own choices. We arent talking brain washing here just try to be the best parent we can.
It is not my place to decide weather your parenting choices are correct and its not any of your place to belittle someone else for stating what they beleive.
Love has actually been proven by a cocktail of hormones, called the "love hormones". Love can also be seen in a physical sense. By facial expressions, hand holding, kissing, etc. And certain "love acts" can be seen physically too. But I'm sure you don't want me to get into all that
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  #57  
August 8th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bellasky View Post
I will raise my children Catholic and teach them all that the Catholic Church teaches. I love my faith and believe completely in it. I have been to other churches and haven't felt as strongly about them as I have the Catholic Church. I am very passionate about my faith and plan to pass that passion on to my children. Yes, I will make my children go to mass with me and they will go to Sunday school, but I will also talk with them about the church and why we believe the things we believe. I don't see how giving children something to have faith in is a bad thing.
For me faith is a belief, a hope, in things not seen.
You don't need religion for that. One can have faith in many aspects of life and never once find "religion".

I was not raised in a church, by my parents, but I attended church every Sunday, every Wednesday evening once I turned 12 for young women's, and every morning before school once I turned 14. I attended girl's camp, youth conference, especially for youth, stake conferences, and pretty much any other activity one could participate in. A very good friend of my mom and her husband are the ones who took me to church, from the day I got out of the hospital after being born, without fail. They brought me up, if you will, in their religion. However, they never pushed, they never poked, they never prodded, they never told me "our way, or no way", etc...
I may no longer attend that church, or consider myself to have any religion by any measurable definition, but there are many things I learned growing up in that church. One of them happens to be that despite one's convictions and beliefs, no single person will always be right. Humans are not infallible, ever, no human will ever be, either. That church also, like most, teaches that their way is the right way. They could very well be right. They could also be dead wrong.
I am smart enough to know this, and I'd expect any other grown adult to also know this.

Now, if your faith(whatever it may be to you) tells you deep within your soul that what you believe in, what you do, how you think, is the absolute truth, I am happy for you. I am happy that you are strong enough in your faith to have such convictions. In fact, I even find it admirable, whether or not I agree. What I think, doesn't really matter though. Deep down all that matters is what you believe.

Me, I believe in choice, freedom, room to grow and learn. I believe in being given the chance to learn for oneself, make mistakes and figure out what path is best for you. I believe that ALL humankind, deserves this. I believe this starts at home, well, it should. I cannot imagine myself NOT teaching this. I also won't pretend I understand why others choose not to. But, that is them, and I am me, and we'll likely never see eye to eye.

I never expect that anyone will agree with my opinions and thoughts on things. I do go into many, most even, topics with a very open mind. Religion very well may not be one I am as open on. There are all kinds of reasons though. But my bottom line is that faith, in whatever you deem it to be, does not come hand in hand with religion. It can, but, imo, it shouldn't.
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  #58  
August 8th, 2012, 02:19 PM
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Happiness and love can certainly be proven through action and even with chemical hormones that are released in your body. Oxytocin, hello!!
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  #59  
August 8th, 2012, 03:23 PM
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I should probably elaborate on my last statement a bit, it's just a tad indifferent the way I typed it up.

I do very strongly believe that faith does not, nor should it, go hand in hand with religion. I believe this because I believe faith is something that cannot be taught. It is not something mom or dad can ingrain in us from birth. Though most parents try, to some degree, in fact I think we all do, teach their children about faith(again I am separating faith from religion here), I believe we fail pretty miserably at it. Why? Because we pass on what faith is to us and we assume, quite wrongly, that our children should also know this same faith, feel it, believe in it, and hold fast to it. Some of us feel VERY strongly about this too. I think this is a huge mistake so many of us make. Some, probably most, won't agree though. They believe passing on their own beliefs can be a huge achievement actually. In fact many feel so very strongly about teaching their own beliefs that they lose sight of the fact that this is not their own self they are trying to convince, but another person. No two people can EVER have the same faith, imo. No two people will EVER have all the same convictions. Even when we try desperately to do so( consciously or otherwise), we fail at this too. But failure isn't always a bad thing, so please don't think I am saying that, I'm not. My parents failed at teaching me about faith too. Like I said, I think all parents do. Not because they never teach about religion(as I already pointed out, faith for me has nothing at all to do with religion) but because they do teach about it and more often than not they teach that faith goes hand in hand. TO the point that many children(who grow into adults) believe the words are synonymous. To be in a religion, you must have faith in it, in it's teachings, in your deity whatever he or she may be, etc... These are lessons parents teach their children. What they fail to do, is separate the faith from the religion-this is what so many teach, without even realizing it.
You can just as easily learn about and gain faith in things hoped for but not seen, without religion. You can just as easily learn about religion, and never truly have faith. I do not find the two to be all encompassing of one another. I do not feel it's impossible to separate the two. In fact, I think everyone SHOULD separate the two. Though you can have faith in your religion, and in finding religion find some faith, in something. That doesn't mean they go hand in hand, it simply means at times, in life, they could cross paths.

I fail just as miserably as everyone else at teaching faith. Why? Because faith simply cannot be taught. It must be learned, on our own time, in our own ways. Despite knowing this, I still fail at teaching it. Something I think every single parent is destined to do. I don't find it to be a bad thing, necessarily, but I also know it's not always a good thing either.

I try my hardest to teach my kids about the faith others have, outside of religion, and why they have that faith. It's a difficult task, because it's something we can never fully understand. It's nearly impossible to teach, or even teach about. I can teach them all day about religion and why people believe what they believe, why they feel as they do, and why they choose the paths they choose. That's actually a very simple task. What I can't do, is teach them about faith, without injecting my own, or even some other person's, into the conversation. I also can't teach them about others' faith without incorporating religion because so many have intertwined the two.
Faith is not a subject that belongs in a textbook or on a website somewhere. It's something that lives within each individual-for lack of better term. It will never be the same as another's, ever. My kids know all about my faith on many, many topics, including religion. They're still discovering their own faith, though. Also something I think we do our whole lives through. No one ever masters faith, it's not some grand level in the best game ever. It's not a tangible goal. It's not even really an intangible goal, it can never be fully reached, imo. Varying degrees of faith, sure, 100% faith, nope, I don't think anyone can possibly have that.

I do not equate faith with religion. Because to me that would be saying religion is the most important topic one can have faith in. I don't believe that to be so.
I am absolutely terrible at discussing this, because it's almost impossible to convey my thoughts without hurting feelings. People get very butthurt when they feel as though you're stepping on their faith. Which simply proves to me that faith is something that belongs to us, as individuals and it's something we shouldn't try and make others own/feel/understand too, including our children. Those who often feel the most insulted, I have found, are usually the ones with the most shaky faith-despite what they say. I understand that point of view all too well. My faith in anything is not rock solid, and it never will be-it shouldn't be. I get just as butthurt when someone says something that might point this fact out to me, as everyone else does, at times. That part goes along with my whole "no human is infallible" theory.
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August 8th, 2012, 04:23 PM
K.A.T's Avatar Enjoying her Sticky Bun
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I'm curious here. For the posters who feel that their religion is the one true religion, how would you react if your children decided that the didn't agree with your religion and either turned towards another religion or became a complete non believer? The way I see things, having your children go with you to church as long as they live with you is the same as forcing your religion on them. That "forcing" can backfire in the end. Just look at the adults that have strayed from their parents religion. The usual reason is because they felt forced into it, not because they no longer had faith is said religion.
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