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  #1  
October 5th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I received a PM from someone last night, who explained that her husband is just fine and their sex life is good. She didn't understand my statement in another thread, where I said:

"Infant circumcision results in the loss of sexual sensitivity and function."

I wanted to share my response here, on the board as well, as I think many people who are reading may have thought the same thing, and would appreciate further explaination.

---

Just for the record, my DH is also circumcised. He enjoys sex a great deal, and hasn't had any complaints. Does that mean he wasn't damaged by having part of his penis cut off as a baby? Nope.

Just because sex is good, doesn't mean it couldn't be better. The foreskin of an adult contains 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10,000-20,000 specialized nerve endings. The foreskin protects the glans and keeps it supple and sensitive. When the foreskin is removed during circumcision, the glans is permanently and constantly exposed, drying out and over time the layers of skin thicken, causing keratinization.

Here's a list of what's lost when the foreskin is removed:

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Anatomy and Functions of the Male Foreskin:

http://www.noharmm.org/anatomy.htm (WARNING: Very graphic.)

Some drawings of how the foreskin functions during intercourse:

http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

Hope that helps explain things better.

---

The truth is, a man circumcised at birth is sort of like someone who's grown up color blind. There's no way for him to really know what he's missing, and he really doesn't have another choice, other than to just accept his condition.

However, often times when men realize what was done to them, and it was more than just a "snip", they are upset about what was taken from them. The foreskin is a double layered organ, and circumcision removes 1/3-1/2 of the penile skin system, about 15 sq. inches in the average adult. (Imagine a 3x5 card.)

Circumcision=LESS PENIS

Jen
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  #2  
October 5th, 2004, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunflower_Mommy2003@Oct 5 2004, 11:31 AM
Just because sex is good, doesn't mean it couldn't be better.
Exactly!

And who are we to change any aspect of our children's sexuality, with no medical indication, and without their consent?


All the best,

Inferno
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  #3  
October 5th, 2004, 10:59 AM
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There are very few who realise that much more than 'just' skin is removed. With infant circumcision many other important parts are removed or seriously injured as the links given above show.

Even fewer know that what is concidered normal penis looks or function(in circumcising countries)is actual abnormal and caused by circumcision.

The one thing that happens to every man circumcised as an infant is the keratinization of glans. In her great wisdom, mother nature gave as sensitive nervepacked glans. To make sure this nerve gift would stay sensitive and 'joyful' through our lives, mother nature gave protection, many-layered skin ,to keep it from getting damaged and to keep it moist. Men have foreskins, women have clitoral hood. If this protective hood is removed, the skin of glans will start to dry and sensitivity disappear. Many (circumcised)men start to lose sensitivity as early as their 30's. They think it is normal - they are getting older...but it is not normal. Far from it.

I often use this great site to get information.

http://www.infocirc.org/

They have excellent page with pictures with very informative texts(so WARNING! there are pictures of 'adult' penises on the page) about the harm infant circumcision does.

http://www.infocirc.org/townsend/problem.htm
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  #4  
October 5th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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kxsiven---

Thanks for the links! That last one...Oh my!

In one of these threads recently, a poster stated that her husband didn't even know he was circumcised until SHE told him. If some men don't even realize they were circumcised, is it any wonder that most men just consider their penis "normal"?

So, so sad.

And this is done to babies...WHY? Because it's the cultural norm? Because somebody did the same thing to Daddy?



Jen
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  #5  
October 24th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Tossing in this analogy, from another board...

Quote:
A man who is circ'd will inevitably say that he is just fine, that he enjoys sex and that there is nothing wrong with him. He's not desensitised! He will swear up and down that this is the case.

He is like a person with no sense of taste. Sure you can still eat, and probably even enjoy the varying textures, smells and tempratures of the food. they might say "what do you mean food could be better? I love eating, its so satisfying. I couldnt imagine it ever being any better than this." But thats the problem, having never had a chance to experience taste, he woulnt be able to even imagine what he is missing.

Not only that, a person with no sense of taste can still EAT and CHEW as well as anyone, so obviously their mouth works just fine, right? They can blow bubbles with bubble gum, whistle, play a wind instrument... there is nothing WRONG with a mouth that can't taste.

A man having never experienced a foreskin would be unable to imagine that sex could be better. He would have nothing to compare it to. It just isnt possible. Its liek trying to describe colors to a blind person. they might get the vaguest idea of what it is, but they just don't know. Or sound to a deaf person. Or taste to a tasteless person. Its something outside of thier experience.[/b]
Any thoughts?
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  #6  
October 24th, 2004, 12:28 PM
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I often compare being circumcised at birth to being born colorblind. You can still see some really wonderful things, but not the way they were intended to be seen. And you'd never know what you were missing because that's all you've ever known.
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  #7  
January 7th, 2005, 01:24 PM
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I've read those web sites I still don't see the big deal. My moms office [urology] does numerous circs a day, i've only heard a couple baby's cry. My grandparents faught and compromised with my brothers one is one isn't. Niether, to my knowledge, has any problems and from there immaturity days of thinking it was funny to come in my room and drop there pants or towels after there shower they look the same, but then again I wasn't paying ALL that much attention, as I don't care to pay attention to there "private areas" and they always would when I had friends over. In all seriousness, if the blood vessels lost, etc if it was really damageing wouldn't they [the doctor] be required to say something? If a son didn't like what was done to him as a baby, wouldn't he have to sue the parent vs the doctor, or the parent sueing the doctor for misinforming them.
Personally, the way I see it right now -- it doesn't really matter if I have a boy if is or isn't, i'd probably leave it up to him -- it belongs to him he should have control or an opinion over a surgury like that. My dads side of the famiy is Jewish, and my moms is Christian/Luthern, and they had a HUGE say in my brothers I just want to have "back up" for when annd if I have a boy [even though boys arn't common in my family! my brothers are the o nly ones!]
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  #8  
January 7th, 2005, 01:29 PM
BluesCluesMom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fallen2Love@Jan 7 2005, 01:24 PM
I've read those web sites I still don't see the big deal.* My moms office [urology] does numerous circs a day, i've only heard a couple baby's cry.* My grandparents faught and compromised with my brothers one is one isn't.* Niether, to my knowledge, has any problems and from there immaturity days of thinking it was funny to come in my room and drop there pants or towels after there shower they look the same, but then again I wasn't paying ALL that much attention, as I don't care to pay attention to there "private areas" and they always would when I had friends over.* In all seriousness, if the blood vessels lost, etc if it was really damageing wouldn't they [the doctor] be required to say something?* If a son didn't like what was done to him as a baby, wouldn't he have to sue the parent vs the doctor, or the parent sueing the doctor for misinforming them.*
Personally, the way I see it right now -- it doesn't really matter if I have a boy if is or isn't,* i'd probably leave it up to him -- it belongs to him he should have control or an opinion over a surgury like that.* My dads side of the famiy is Jewish, and my moms is Christian/Luthern, and they had a HUGE say in my brothers I just want to have "back up" for when annd if I have a boy [even though boys arn't common in my family!* my brothers are the o nly ones!]
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[/quote]



I'll let Jen or Jamie address this more and they are more versed in the legalities but many lawsuits have been brought and continue to be brought. There is certainly a lack of informed consent and right now that issue is being addressed by advocates and the medical community.

The first rule of medicine is first, do no harm. We don't amputate healthy body parts without valid medical indication so why is cutting off part of a fully functioning penis any different.

Good point, Fallen and like I said, I'll let Jen, Jamie or Talenak give you more detailed info.
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  #9  
January 7th, 2005, 02:22 PM
zonapellucida
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I wanted to add to this, my sister's DH was not circumcized and when he tried to get it done when he was older the Dr wouldn't do it and told him he would lose sensation.
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  #10  
January 7th, 2005, 03:58 PM
TheGeneralsGal
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Quote:
I've read those web sites I still don't see the big deal. My moms office [urology] does numerous circs a day, i've only heard a couple baby's cry.[/b]
How many circs have you been witnesss to? All I know is when Ian and Abigail go in for shots, they cry so hard that they basically stop breathing and I have to blow air into their face or flick a little water. It brings me to tears. There are very few things that I get weepy over.

Quote:
In all seriousness, if the blood vessels lost, etc if it was really damageing wouldn't they [the doctor] be required to say something? If a son didn't like what was done to him as a baby, wouldn't he have to sue the parent vs the doctor, or the parent sueing the doctor for misinforming them.[/b]
I would say so. In fact some men HAVE gone ahead with lawsuits. So look at this and read about Informed consent

Quote:
Personally, the way I see it right now -- it doesn't really matter if I have a boy if is or isn't, i'd probably leave it up to him -- it belongs to him he should have control or an opinion over a surgury like that. My dads side of the famiy is Jewish, and my moms is Christian/Luthern, and they had a HUGE say in my brothers I just want to have "back up" for when annd if I have a boy [even though boys arn't common in my family! my brothers are the o nly ones!][/b]
Yep and don't let them pull the Jewish card on you. I am Jewish and Ian is intact. You however are not Jewish since your mother is not. Good for you for leaving the decision up to your son, if you have one.

I am going to start a new post on informed consent.
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  #11  
January 7th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Sunflower_Mommy2003's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
I've read those web sites I still don't see the big deal. My moms office [urology] does numerous circs a day, i've only heard a couple baby's cry. My grandparents faught and compromised with my brothers one is one isn't. Niether, to my knowledge, has any problems and from there immaturity days of thinking it was funny to come in my room and drop there pants or towels after there shower they look the same, but then again I wasn't paying ALL that much attention, as I don't care to pay attention to there "private areas" and they always would when I had friends over. In all seriousness, if the blood vessels lost, etc if it was really damageing wouldn't they [the doctor] be required to say something? If a son didn't like what was done to him as a baby, wouldn't he have to sue the parent vs the doctor, or the parent sueing the doctor for misinforming them.[/b]
The big deal is that no medical organizaiton in the world recommends routinely circumcising newborn boys. Did you know that if you so much as knick the clitoris of little girl without a medical indication, you'd be violating federal law? Also, circumcision is surgery, which carries risks...including death. Dani was right when she spoke of medical ethics and, "First do no harm." The potential benefits are miniscule and do not outweigh the risks...and this is a surgery performed on a non-consenting minor. And the above reasons for circumcision being wrong/unethical don't even touch on what the foreskin is and how it functions and whether or not it has inherent value.

So, IMO it is an issue of human rights, genital integrity, and gender equality---All things I consider very important, and worth fighting for.

BTW, in regard to lawsuits...It *is* happening. And doctors and hospitals are being sued because it's there DUTY to fully inform the patient or those consenting on behalf of the patient on the risks/benefits and alternatives to any procedure. If doctors neglect to do that, they can be held liable. Here's a link for you: http://www.arclaw.org/

I'm curious what state you live in and why routine newborn circumcisions are being done in a urology clinic...that seems pretty unusual to me, since the majority of circumcisions are done by obgyns or pediatricians.

Quote:
Personally, the way I see it right now -- it doesn't really matter if I have a boy if is or isn't, i'd probably leave it up to him -- it belongs to him he should have control or an opinion over a surgury like that. My dads side of the famiy is Jewish, and my moms is Christian/Luthern, and they had a HUGE say in my brothers I just want to have "back up" for when annd if I have a boy [even though boys arn't common in my family! my brothers are the o nly ones!][/b]
I'm happy to hear that you plan on leaving the decision to him.

Here are some links for Christians on the topic you might find interesting:

NoHarmm, “Circumcision and the Christian Parent”: http://www.noharmm.org/christianparent.htm

CIRP: “Answers from the Bible to Questions About Circumcision”: http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/glass2/

“The Holy Bible, Circumcision False Prophets, and the Christian Parent” by George Hill: http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/christian.html

“Christian Parents and the Circumcision Issue”, by James E. Peron, MS, Ed.D, from Many Blessings, Volume 3, Spring 2000: http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/peron1/

“Why Christians Need Not Be Circumcised”: http://www.circumstitions.com/Xy.html

Christians for Wholeness: http://www.acts15.org/

Jen
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  #12  
January 7th, 2005, 06:47 PM
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I live in NC. In my moms office they do apx 5-10 circs a day on average. I can't go in and see since i'm not a medical whatever employee i've just gone in a couple times with my mom when I was skipping school due to bomb threats/shooting threats --beside the point. I only heard a couple cry. I think they also use a local antesteic *sp* or some type of numbing medication i'm not sure though. I know normally what my mom said is they'll have mom or dad stay and talk to the baby/child and have a childrens book in front of them so they don't see what is going on.

When it comes to laws its so iffy sometimes. LOL! i took law in HS and thought I wanted to be a lawyer no longer is that one true!

I hate the jew--christanity battle my family plays its awful.
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  #13  
January 8th, 2005, 09:26 PM
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Fallen2Love, you probably don't want to see one...it's pretty horrible. Did you see the "Dear Son" thread that describes the procedure? Some doctors due use anesthetic, but most still use nothing. I can't imagine having a "children's book" in front of me so I couldn't see what they were doing to my child...that seems rediculous to me. Like a Dr. Suess book could distract any loving parent from such a thing. If you believe that, you ought to watch a video of the procedure.

There's a recent thead titled "Video". I'd be interested in knowning you thoughts.

Jen
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  #14  
January 9th, 2005, 06:58 PM
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Yeah I read that, it just made me speakless. I'm glad i've never seen one -- personally i'm freaked out at the site of blood in hospital/doctor settings. I tried to get that video to work, it would on my computer not sure why :/ I did see some pictures I couldn't imagine doing that, I don't think that I could willingly force a procedure on a baby that can't even do anything for himself. I just get freaked out at the sight of blood and hospitals, etc.
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  #16  
March 1st, 2005, 09:19 AM
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You know, I think we need a red herring clickable smile face!

I wrote a whole long response, but then I was editing it for splling, and wondered why I wasting my time, when the person could just go ahead and read through all the other red herring comparisons and get her answer there.
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  #17  
March 12th, 2005, 06:29 PM
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Ann---

Why should the fact that the foreskin has sexual functions bear weight in the decision to cut it off a non-consenting child? Are you for real? Um...how about because the penis is the primary male sex organ and it's just not right to surgically damage and desensitize without a medical indication?

I couldn't help but notice your very religious siggy...and wondered if you were familiar with these quotes from God:

1 Corinthians 7:19

19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Galatians 5:6

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Galatians 6:15

15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

Colossians 2:11

11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ

Romans 2:29

29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Philippians 3:2-3

2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh

Also,

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

(NIV version, http://www.biblegateway.com/ )

Yeah, it is hard to think of our children as sexual beings...they are so innocent and pure and precious and, well...perfect. But the fact is at the very most you will be seeing and caring for your son's genitals for the first few years. He's the one it's permanently attached to and yes...will one day be using it sexually.

Is it taboo to recognize that a penis is for more than making wee-wee?

Do we always make the best choices for our children, each and every time? No. Does that excuse harming their most private parts? No.

I wonder how you would react to someone that was making an argument for removing the clitoral hoods and labia of little girls with that argument? Somehow I don't think you'd be excusing it by comparing it to feeding a child a piece of candy.



Why is it people always take this issue so personally? Why does pointing out the many things that are wrong/risky/unethical with circumcision always get translated to "Parents who circ are baaaaaaaaad."? I don't believe that, and I don't know anyone else who opposes routine infant circumcision that does.

Jen
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  #19  
March 13th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Anne07Nov05's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunflower_Mommy2003@Jan 8 2005, 10:26 PM
Fallen2Love, you probably don't want to see one...it's pretty horrible.* Did you see the "Dear Son" thread that describes the procedure?* Some doctors due use anesthetic, but most still use nothing.* <div align="right"><{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[/quote]

First of all, a disclaimer: I am not saying I am for or against circs. I just wanted to post some facts.

It is true that the AAP feels there are potential benefits to circumcision; however, they do not feel there is enough evidence to routinely recommend them.

The new AAP policy states that if parents decide to circ their infant, it is essential that pain relief be provided. So I really hope there aren't still many doctors (or non-medical people, such as religious figures that do it as part of a religious ceremony) who are not using pain meds. I can't imagine why somebody would chose not to provide pain relief if their child underwent a circ.

More info about the APP's stance can be found at:

http://www.babybag.com/articles/circumc2.htm
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  #20  
March 13th, 2005, 09:30 PM
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Anne---You are absolutely right, the AAP says providing pain medication is essential---however, actual studies and surveys have shown that many doctors are still not in compliance with that recommendation. It's also important to keep in mind that even when anesthetic is used, at best it reduces the pain but does not eliminate it...and many doctors use just EMLA cream wich only numbs the very surface of the skin and is inadaquate for surgery.

Brenda---Woo-Hoo! Awesome post! Good for you. Have you ever read this article by Vincent Bach “Vulnerability of Men”: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent...ity_of_men.html ? It gives some good insight into why many circed men are so insistant their sons be circed.

Jen
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