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  #1  
May 1st, 2007, 08:26 PM
::er!ca::'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Another issue brought to my attention from watching tonights episode of Bravo TV's series Work Out is about the United States Military and homosexuals.

In the episode, a gay cast member went on a date with a person who used to be in the military. The date mentioned that while he was in the military (and serving in Iraq) he was not able to mention his sexuality. He also mentioned that one man had been awarded the Purple Heart, but later had it taken away and was kicked out of the military when it became known that he was a homosexual.

I, personally, don't have any proof other than the words out of this man's mouth on this issue. However, I was just curious to see everyone's opinion on this topic.

Do you think a person's sexuality should matter when it comes to serving in the military? Do you think that the military should have the right to remove a person from their service if they are homosexual? Do you think this is discrimination? Does the United States military actually do what was mentioned above?

What proof does anyone have to support (or not support) the above statement?


(Edited for spelling-- It's late!)
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  #2  
May 1st, 2007, 08:30 PM
Lash's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I know what I personally feel is correct, but I also know what the current precedent is, and feel that most people do.. that doesnt mean they shouldnt fight it, but I dont think they should be "surprised" if something happens (stripped of medals and such)
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  #3  
May 1st, 2007, 08:35 PM
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The military policy on homosexuality, implemented by Bill Clinton, is "don't ask, don't tell". Basically, you can be a homosexual and join the military, no one is allowed to ask your sexual oreintation and you are not to discuss your sexual orientation. When I was in the military there were several people I knew, very good friends, that were, openly and obviously, homosexual among our peers. Now, when it came to supervisors, and superiors, even though it was obvious, there was just no discussion at work. Jane couldn't come in and say "yeah, so me and Mary went on a date this weekend".
Quote:
The date mentioned that while he was in the military (and serving in Iraq) he was not able to mention his sexuality. He also mentioned that one man had been awarded the Purple Heart, but later had it taken away and was kicked out of the military when it became known that he was a homosexual.[/b]
True, you are not to discuss your sexuality. I would question the purple heart story, because I only know of one person that got kicked out of the military because of his sexuality, and he disclosed it to our Commander with the sole intent of leaving the military. Another friend of mine who is homosexual is in her 11th year of military service, she even lives with her girlfriend. I know several others, a couple are officers who enjoy a thriving military career. Seriously, in my experience, if you get kicked out because of your sexuality, you have to want to get kicked out because of it.
Quote:
Do you think a person's sexuality should matter when it comes to serving in the military?[/b]
No, not in the least. Though, I understand the intention is to protect everyone.
Quote:
Do you think that the military should have the right to remove a person from their service if they are homosexual?[/b]
No.
Quote:
Do you think this is descrimination?[/b]
Yes.
Quote:
Does the United States military actually do what was mentioned above?[/b]
Yes, people have been discharged because of their sexuality, but as I mentioned, they are usually seeking that outcome.
Quote:
What proof does anyone have to support (or not support) the above statement?[/b]
I am an Air Force veteran, I have my personal experience.
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  #4  
May 1st, 2007, 08:37 PM
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No, I don't think a person's sexuality should matter when it comes to serving in the military.

No, I don't think the military has the right to remove someone from the military because of their sexual preference. I would consider it discrimination.

I don't know if the military actually would strip someone of the awards that they rightfully earned. I hope that they wouldn't do that but I have no proof either way.

I think if someone has rightfully earned a medal or award then their sexual preference has nothing to do with that and it therefore should not be taken away.
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  #5  
May 1st, 2007, 08:39 PM
::er!ca::'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Stacey, I couldn't wait for you to reply to this... since I knew you were a veteran of the Air Force I knew you would have a good reply!

Ok, I'm off to bed... I'll catch up tomorrow!
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  #6  
May 1st, 2007, 08:43 PM
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The military isn't a gay pride parade (it also isn't a Playboy centerfold, on the flip side). If you want to make a statement or stick out like a sore thumb, you're sure looking at the wrong thing to join.

I think homosexuals should be able to do as they please in their relationships in the civilian world, and I agree with giving gay couples rights to civil unions and all that. But I completely agree with the "don't ask don't tell" policy they have now.
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  #7  
May 1st, 2007, 08:56 PM
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I think part of the reason is to protect the homosexuals from what could happen if it got out that they were gay.

ETA: Not to mention---these men sleep, eat, pee,shower, everything together. It could make a lot of people uncomfortable.
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  #8  
May 1st, 2007, 09:19 PM
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Do you think a person's sexuality should matter when it comes to serving in the military? Nope

Do you think that the military should have the right to remove a person from their service if they are homosexual? Nope

Do you think this is discrimination? Yep

Does the United States military actually do what was mentioned above? I think it DOES happen, but not regularly. I think (like Stacey said) you gotta make a deal about it or nobody else makes a deal. I just heard this from others.


Quote:
I think part of the reason is to protect the homosexuals from what could happen if it got out that they were gay.

ETA: Not to mention---these men sleep, eat, pee,shower, everything together. It could make a lot of people uncomfortable.[/b]
A post about the military and I'll ALWAYS see Laura there!
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  #9  
May 1st, 2007, 11:45 PM
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I think "Don't ask, don't tell" is a laughable, almost kindergarten-level concept. It is very much like Bill Clinton (who I admire BTW) to sneak something by like this and have it stick.

Is it discrimination? Hmmm... let me think about that. It's saying that a specific, in-born characteristic that isn't actually harmful to anyone makes someone so different that they shouldn't have the opportunity to take part in an institution or activity that is inherently their right to take part in as a citizen and/or a human being.

Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah - During slavery! Before women's suffrage! During Jim Crow times! "Separate but equal" which we all know ISN'T!!

I don't understand how anyone can deny this is discrimination; outright, inexcusable discrimination.

Keep gays out of the military to protect the heterosexuals? Um, last I heard, most sexual predators ARE heterosexual. Besides, gay people aren't going around trying to hit on straight people, DUH, why would they? They know the straight person isn't interested!

Keep gays out of the military to protect the gays? Well, if the military itself didn't send the clear message that being gay is bad and wrong, perhaps the people IN the military wouldn't hold that view so harshly.

If a gay soldier/sailor/Marine got beat up for being gay - it's his/her fault? Or... could it possibly be the fault of the person or people who beat them up??? And what about the organization that implied the gay person wasn't worthy of respect in the first place?
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  #10  
May 2nd, 2007, 08:03 AM
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I totally think this is discrimination. I did watch that TV show last night and I was so enraged! It seems unbelievable to me that someone could do so much for his country and then get kicked out of the military because he revealed his sexual preference. I think it's wrong.
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  #11  
May 2nd, 2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
I totally think this is discrimination. I did watch that TV show last night and I was so enraged! It seems unbelievable to me that someone could do so much for his country and then get kicked out of the military because he revealed his sexual preference. I think it's wrong.[/b]
I understand everyone's outrage over this story, but believe me when I say, there is more to it than that. I don't know of anyone who was discharged, not kicked out (I said it too, but I just realized the connotation), dishonorably or had their awards taken away as a result of revealing their sexual orientation. The one person I knew, personally, wanted to go to Hawaii and live with his boyfriend and get married. BELIEVE ME, he was not a puzzle, he was very flamboyant and feminine and would even dress in drag when we would go out. He went to his supervisor and the Chief Controller (I was an air traffic controller) and did the big REVEAL, "I am gay, and I want out of the Air Force". It was actually really tiptoed around, because, YES, even the superiors knew he was gay, but they didn't want to be accused of asking him or saying it. They had several meetings with him, asking are you sure this is what you want, are you sure you want out. Because, if mid swing he changed his mind this could come back and bite the superiors in the butt if he wanted to accuse them of asking him. Finally, after a couple of weeks of counseling sessions, they gave him an honorable discharge, and sent him on his way.
My point is, if this guy in the story was kicked out and stripped of his medal, there is much more to that story.
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  #12  
May 2nd, 2007, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I totally think this is discrimination. I did watch that TV show last night and I was so enraged! It seems unbelievable to me that someone could do so much for his country and then get kicked out of the military because he revealed his sexual preference. I think it's wrong.[/b]
I understand everyone's outrage over this story, but believe me when I say, there is more to it than that. I don't know of anyone who was discharged, not kicked out (I said it too, but I just realized the connotation), dishonorably or had their awards taken away as a result of revealing their sexual orientation. The one person I knew, personally, wanted to go to Hawaii and live with his boyfriend and get married. BELIEVE ME, he was not a puzzle, he was very flamboyant and feminine and would even dress in drag when we would go out. He went to his supervisor and the Chief Controller (I was an air traffic controller) and did the big REVEAL, "I am gay, and I want out of the Air Force". It was actually really tiptoed around, because, YES, even the superiors knew he was gay, but they didn't want to be accused of asking him or saying it. They had several meetings with him, asking are you sure this is what you want, are you sure you want out. Because, if mid swing he changed his mind this could come back and bite the superiors in the butt if he wanted to accuse them of asking him. Finally, after a couple of weeks of counseling sessions, they gave him an honorable discharge, and sent him on his way.
My point is, if this guy in the story was kicked out and stripped of his medal, there is much more to that story.
[/b]
I agree. I know a lot of gay and lesbian people in the military, and while they have never come out and said, "I'm gay!" it's not a secret either.

The rule is in place to protect homosexuals. Which you might find silly, but it serves it's purpose.
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  #13  
May 2nd, 2007, 09:12 AM
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I think it is retarded. They have no right to stip them of what they have fought for. They put there life on the line to serve there country and something they love. A persons sexuality should not determine a persons ability to act as a, soldier for this country. Whats next stripping them of ranks because of the color of there skin. All men are to be treated equal.
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  #14  
May 2nd, 2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I totally think this is discrimination. I did watch that TV show last night and I was so enraged! It seems unbelievable to me that someone could do so much for his country and then get kicked out of the military because he revealed his sexual preference. I think it's wrong.[/b]
I understand everyone's outrage over this story, but believe me when I say, there is more to it than that. I don't know of anyone who was discharged, not kicked out (I said it too, but I just realized the connotation), dishonorably or had their awards taken away as a result of revealing their sexual orientation. The one person I knew, personally, wanted to go to Hawaii and live with his boyfriend and get married. BELIEVE ME, he was not a puzzle, he was very flamboyant and feminine and would even dress in drag when we would go out. He went to his supervisor and the Chief Controller (I was an air traffic controller) and did the big REVEAL, "I am gay, and I want out of the Air Force". It was actually really tiptoed around, because, YES, even the superiors knew he was gay, but they didn't want to be accused of asking him or saying it. They had several meetings with him, asking are you sure this is what you want, are you sure you want out. Because, if mid swing he changed his mind this could come back and bite the superiors in the butt if he wanted to accuse them of asking him. Finally, after a couple of weeks of counseling sessions, they gave him an honorable discharge, and sent him on his way.
My point is, if this guy in the story was kicked out and stripped of his medal, there is much more to that story.
[/b]
Still doesn't make the policy right...
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  #15  
May 2nd, 2007, 09:46 AM
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Do you think a person's sexuality should matter when it comes to serving in the military?

-No, if they are making someone uncomfortable then that's a matter of sexual harrassment.

Do you think that the military should have the right to remove a person from their service if they are homosexual?

-Yes, if they decide to come out and openly say that they are homosexual. Usually if someone gets out for being gay it's because they WANT to get out. Nobody is going to go up to someone and say well, we're going to discharge you because we think you're gay.

-Do you think this is discrimination?

No, I don't think kicking someone out for being homosexual is discrimination because it is their choice to keep their sexual orientation to themselves or not. And they know what will happen if they come out.

Does the United States military actually do what was mentioned above?
-I think there is more to the story than that. It also depends on what kind of discharge he got whether he would be able to keep his medals or not.
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  #16  
May 2nd, 2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
-Do you think this is discrimination?

No, I don't think kicking someone out for being homosexual is discrimination because it is their choice to keep their sexual orientation to themselves or not. And they know what will happen if they come out.[/b]


So just because homosexuality is something that "can" be hidden, unlike being female, or black or something, it's all of a sudden not discrimination because the person has a "responsibility" to hide it?? Give me a break...
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  #17  
May 2nd, 2007, 10:20 AM
::er!ca::'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Why is it ok for Johnny to say he has a relationship with Susie, but not ok for Johnny to say he has a relationship with Mike or for Susie to say she has a relationship with Kim?

If it is a "don't ask, don't tell" situation, I think it should be that way straight across the board. Not ok for one, and not the other.

So, if it is known that Johnny is gay but wants to stay in the military, is that ok? Will he be allowed to stay in? Or will they find something else to discharge him for?
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  #18  
May 2nd, 2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Why is it ok for Johnny to say he has a relationship with Susie, but not ok for Johnny to say he has a relationship with Mike or for Susie to say she has a relationship with Kim?

If it is a "don't ask, don't tell" situation, I think it should be that way straight across the board. Not ok for one, and not the other.


So, if it is known that Johnny is gay but wants to stay in the military, is that ok? Will he be allowed to stay in? Or will they find something else to discharge him for?[/b]
That's exactly what i wanted to say, but forgot! lol...

If homosexuals are supposed to hide their sexuality, then so should heterosexuals! Otherwise it IS discrimination, and how a government entity such as the military can support that is COMPLETELY beyond me. Goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for.... and thus, what the military ITSELF is supposed to be standing for, and fighting for...
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  #19  
May 2nd, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I totally think this is discrimination. I did watch that TV show last night and I was so enraged! It seems unbelievable to me that someone could do so much for his country and then get kicked out of the military because he revealed his sexual preference. I think it's wrong.[/b]
I understand everyone's outrage over this story, but believe me when I say, there is more to it than that. I don't know of anyone who was discharged, not kicked out (I said it too, but I just realized the connotation), dishonorably or had their awards taken away as a result of revealing their sexual orientation. The one person I knew, personally, wanted to go to Hawaii and live with his boyfriend and get married. BELIEVE ME, he was not a puzzle, he was very flamboyant and feminine and would even dress in drag when we would go out. He went to his supervisor and the Chief Controller (I was an air traffic controller) and did the big REVEAL, "I am gay, and I want out of the Air Force". It was actually really tiptoed around, because, YES, even the superiors knew he was gay, but they didn't want to be accused of asking him or saying it. They had several meetings with him, asking are you sure this is what you want, are you sure you want out. Because, if mid swing he changed his mind this could come back and bite the superiors in the butt if he wanted to accuse them of asking him. Finally, after a couple of weeks of counseling sessions, they gave him an honorable discharge, and sent him on his way.
My point is, if this guy in the story was kicked out and stripped of his medal, there is much more to that story.
[/b]
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  #20  
May 2nd, 2007, 01:19 PM
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So just because homosexuality is something that "can" be hidden, unlike being female, or black or something, it's all of a sudden not discrimination because the person has a "responsibility" to hide it?? Give me a break...[/b]
Yes it is their responsibility becuause when you join the military you know what you are signing up for and you know the policy on homosexuality in the military. They don't even have to "hide" it, they just can't openly say that they're gay or engage in homosexual activity. And when you take an oath and join the military if you break the rules, you suffer the consequences.
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