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America, isn't it wonderful?


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  #1  
May 11th, 2007, 01:23 PM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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Recently 6 men were arrested on suspicion of planning an attack on Fort Dix (NJ military base). The men were from Jordan, Turkey, and the former Yugoslavia. Three of them were in the country illegally!

They were all provided with court appointed attorneys. So you can plan an attack against America and apparently we will pay for you to defend yourself! I find something irritating about that especially for the ones who weren't even here legally. I say if you aren't here legally you don't deserve the right to a court appointed attorney!

I wonder if I went to Jordan, Turkey, or the former Yugoslavia and planned an attack on their military and I got caught if I would be given the same courtesies. Somehow, I doubt it.

I don't know why these people hate America. I would think they'd think it was fabulous that they can come here and commit crimes and then have their defense paid for!

Does anyone else find this absurd?
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  #2  
May 11th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Pure Innocence
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Hm....I don't know where I stand on this one...
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  #3  
May 11th, 2007, 01:36 PM
jodi16ss's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I am not sure about this one, either, but it does bring to mind something one of my very best friends said to me not too long ago. He recently moved to Brazil for work (will be there for a year). He told me that he has learned that the US (and Canada, I am sure!) is amazing compared to the rest of the world. He told me that even though Americans complain about this and complain about that, we have no idea how great we have it. So, while the link may anger you, I am so proud to be an American. The system has its flaws, our politicians and healthcare system may be wacko, but we sure do still have it pretty darn good. Sorry to go so far OT, but whenever I hear people complain about the US, it always makes me think of this story.
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  #4  
May 11th, 2007, 01:38 PM
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Can I think on this one... since I just returned from Fort Dix from a month of training um.... I was there monday of this week
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  #5  
May 11th, 2007, 01:50 PM
chloe82
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Quote:
Recently 6 men were arrested on suspicion of planning an attack on Fort Dix (NJ military base). The men were from Jordan, Turkey, and the former Yugoslavia. Three of them were in the country illegally!

They were all provided with court appointed attorneys. So you can plan an attack against America and apparently we will pay for you to defend yourself! I find something irritating about that especially for the ones who weren't even here legally. I say if you aren't here legally you don't deserve the right to a court appointed attorney!

I wonder if I went to Jordan, Turkey, or the former Yugoslavia and planned an attack on their military and I got caught if I would be given the same courtesies. Somehow, I doubt it.

I don't know why these people hate America. I would think they'd think it was fabulous that they can come here and commit crimes and then have their defense paid for!

Does anyone else find this absurd?[/b]
No, because isn't it "innocent until proven guilty"????
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  #6  
May 11th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Frozendesire's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Although it might seem stupid... you have to remember how your court system works. You are innocent until proven guilty, and I believe it's something like everyone is entitled to a lawyer or something? Sorry I don't remember your laws
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  #7  
May 11th, 2007, 02:01 PM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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Quote:
I am not sure about this one, either, but it does bring to mind something one of my very best friends said to me not too long ago. He recently moved to Brazil for work (will be there for a year). He told me that he has learned that the US (and Canada, I am sure!) is amazing compared to the rest of the world. He told me that even though Americans complain about this and complain about that, we have no idea how great we have it. So, while the link may anger you, I am so proud to be an American. The system has its flaws, our politicians and healthcare system may be wacko, but we sure do still have it pretty darn good. Sorry to go so far OT, but whenever I hear people complain about the US, it always makes me think of this story.[/b]

I don't mean it as a complaint against America. I'm glad that we have it so good here. I just bugs me that our same freedoms are given to people who are in this country illegally with the intent to perpetrate crimes against American and Americans. I highly doubt that if I went to their countries I'd be afforded the same rights.

Quote:
Can I think on this one... since I just returned from Fort Dix from a month of training um.... I was there monday of this week[/b]

Yikes, that had to have been scary. Thank God those men were caught before they could carry out their plan.
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  #8  
May 11th, 2007, 02:04 PM
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Nah... it wasn't scary... it was kinda funny because we rode around with 50cal's on our trucks the whole time we were training... who is going to get into a fight with that gun... COME ON... they would have never lasted...
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  #9  
May 11th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Pure Innocence
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Nah... it wasn't scary... it was kinda funny because we rode around with 50cal's on our trucks the whole time we were training... who is going to get into a fight with that gun... COME ON... they would have never lasted...[/b]
lol!!!
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  #10  
May 11th, 2007, 02:30 PM
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Especially me shooting it... I can't even see over the top of it and I still got to play with it... These people are getting on my nerves trying to kill me and don't even know me... come on... I am not that bad... get this... NOW go look at this
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/11...rity/index.html

I AM IN GERMANY.... Are they following me... jeez...
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  #11  
May 11th, 2007, 04:46 PM
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Probably not. I bet they'd order you be put to death immediately. Some countries are not that nice when tolerating crime of any sort especially terrorism type crime.
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  #12  
May 11th, 2007, 05:27 PM
Mia&Mattea'sMom's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Ok this really bothers me because I knew 3 of them personally (The Duka brothers. They used to own a pizza place right next to my work . They also lived only 20 minutes away from me which is very scary. I spoke with them on a daily basis and had never imagined that they could even think to do something like this. I didn't know until I read this if they had hired attroneys or if they had them court appointed. As sad as it is Your are inncocent until proven guilty. So I guess it is one of their rights to have a court appointed attroney.
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  #13  
May 11th, 2007, 07:27 PM
tevinsangel
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As angry as this makes us, I can see why they'd need court appointed attorneys. Can you imagine what a day in court would be like not only for them but for the judge, jury, spectators etc.? Trying to listen to someone (who quite possibly does not know how court proceedings go here, someone who might not even speak the English language fluently). It sucks that they have to use our dime to have an attorney but if they were just returned to their countries, they'd probably be welcomed back as heroes. At least here (hopefully) they will be punished.
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  #14  
May 11th, 2007, 07:34 PM
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Chances are if you commited a crime within another country (depending on the country and if they were apart of the United Nations) you would be provided a court appointed attorney. If not, you could always contact your local Embassy and they would get one assigned to you. With that being said, despite whether their national country would extend the same courtesy and uphold the UN Human Rights to appoint you a court appointed lawyer, it's a moot point. The US is a UN member and needs to be accountable and uphold the agreement they signed when they joined the UN.

Ironically, the US is under scrutiny by the United Nation in regards to Human Rights Issues when it comes to counter-terrorism tactics and trials (other countries under scrutiny include China, India, Egypt, Georgia, UK, Indonessia, Russia, Spain, and Uzbekistan) so the fact that they assigned these men a court appointed lawyer is a good thing and something the Geneva Treaty mandates (as found in Article 7, 10 & 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights from the UN).

UN Counter-Terrorism Concerns
UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
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  #15  
May 11th, 2007, 09:16 PM
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I understand the innocent until proven guilty thing, but for the ones that were in the country illegally, I don't think that their defense should be paid for.
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  #16  
May 11th, 2007, 09:39 PM
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Sorry...I can't resist, but how are illegals getting into the country if the security is increased? What is classified as illegal (expired tourist visa)? It's not like people from Turkey, Jordan, and Serbia and Montenegro (since the name Yugoslavia was abolished in 2003) are slipping in without a passport and papers under the guise of night! They're flying in...so perhaps the customs officials who allow them into the country should also be looked at.

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  #17  
May 11th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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We have rights for a reason... Just because someone is accused of a terrorist act doesn't mean those rights should be bypassed. Can you imagine what a slippery slope that could become?
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  #18  
May 11th, 2007, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
We have rights for a reason... Just because someone is accused of a terrorist act doesn't mean those rights should be bypassed. Can you imagine what a slippery slope that could become? [/b]
Exactly!

It's amazing how fast people would cry injustice if the tables were turned and an American slipped into another country, and was denied due process.
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  #19  
May 11th, 2007, 11:46 PM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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I understand the innocent until proven guilty thing, but for the ones that were in the country illegally, I don't think that their defense should be paid for.[/b]

This is how I feel too! Yes, you are innocent until proven guilty. Since they are in this country illegally that is already one crime committed that they have proof for. I just have trouble with the fact that someone can come into this country illegally and still be given the same rights as those who live here legally.
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  #20  
May 11th, 2007, 11:52 PM
SusieQ2's Avatar Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Ok this really bothers me because I knew 3 of them personally (The Duka brothers. They used to own a pizza place right next to my work . They also lived only 20 minutes away from me which is very scary. I spoke with them on a daily basis and had never imagined that they could even think to do something like this. I didn't know until I read this if they had hired attroneys or if they had them court appointed. As sad as it is Your are inncocent until proven guilty. So I guess it is one of their rights to have a court appointed attroney.[/b]

I didn't realize you were from NJ too! That is kinda scary that they were so close to you. It makes it so hard not to then scrutinize everyone you know. Once someone has made you think they are one way and you find out that they are completely different it sometimes makes you doubt your own judgment.

Quote:
We have rights for a reason... Just because someone is accused of a terrorist act doesn't mean those rights should be bypassed. Can you imagine what a slippery slope that could become? [/b]

Yes, we have rights for a reason. I am all for everyone of those rights. However, I believe that those rights belong to Americans and anyone who has come into this country legally! If a person decides to come here illegally that to me shows that they have no respect for our laws until they need them for their own protection when they get caught. Laws and rights aren't a thing of convenience. You don't avoid them when you feel like it and then lean on them when you need them!
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