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  #1  
May 13th, 2007, 04:58 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Okay.... i just have to ask this. Reading through the polygamy thread on the main board got me thinking. Someone posted that Christians don't follow the Old Testament, because Jesus came and fulfilled those laws or whatever...

And yet, isn't the bible passage everyone quotes against homosexuality ("Thou shalt not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" or whatever) in the Old Testament??

So can someone please explain what i'm missing here?
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  #2  
May 13th, 2007, 05:26 PM
chloe82
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Okay.... i just have to ask this. Reading through the polygamy thread on the main board got me thinking. Someone posted that Christians don't follow the Old Testament, because Jesus came and fulfilled those laws or whatever...

And yet, isn't the bible passage everyone quotes against homosexuality ("Thou shalt not lie with a man as one lies with a woman" or whatever) in the Old Testament??

So can someone please explain what i'm missing here? [/b]
Hmm....I will do my best to answer this since I'm pretty sure it's my post you were referring to....I have a hard time answering this question....it's a little complicated to me even as a Christian....
The post I made was referring to a topic about polygamy, and I was responding specifically to a post saying that the Bible condoned polygamy. I was arguing that it doesn't, it does make reference to plenty of people in the OT who practiced polygamy but it doesn't CONDONE it. But I digress....what I was trying to say is that as Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ came as the Son of God to die for our sins, (as in the whole world's (past and present and future) sins) and as a result we, who have accepted that gift of forgiveness and resulting salvation through CHRIST, don't have to live as though we are bound to the laws of the OT. People in the OT followed the letter of the Law to please God...while Christians should still try to live lives that are pleasing to God, we do so not because we HAVE to, or because we're bound to follow the Law by fear of (eternal) death, but out of love and thankfulness, and a deep desire to please Him who we love more than anyone or anything else. There are books and books of laws in the OT that we are not bound to literally anymore in the same way that those were who were living before Christ came. Christians believe that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law....as in, He came out of recognition that in regards to pleasing God, we all fall short and need a gateway to God. He is that gateway.
For example, one of the laws in the OT states that a woman who commits adultery is to be stoned. In the NT, a group of people gathered round a woman who has committed adultery are about to start stoning her to death as the law stated, when Jesus steps in and stops them, challenging anyone who is without sin to throw the first stone. The crowd, realizing that all fall short because ALL sin, dissipates and the woman's life is saved. this is the kind of change in thinking I'm referring to in the NT. Paul states that we need to stop living as those bound to the Law because we are free in grace. This doesn't mean we stop caring what God's standards are, or stop trying to live a life that is pleasing to God and a good example of love to others, but simply that we do so out of love and thankfulness, not fear of retribution, judgement (of self and others) etc.
that is a mouthful but I hope it makes SOME sense. I have a hard time explaining exactly what I mean in this department. Maybe some other christian sistahs can step in and help me out!!!!
Feel free to correct me if this explanation sucks, too. I realize many of us have differing views on this issue as well!
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  #3  
May 13th, 2007, 07:53 PM
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I'd just like to say that some Christians don't think the Old Testament was done away with.
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  #4  
May 13th, 2007, 08:37 PM
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Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

It can be narrowed down to the application of literal meaning to the passages in the Bible. Understanding the basis of what you're reading is key. For example, Moral Law can be found in various places in the Old Testament, not just the Ten Commandments. Moral Law undoubtably applies to each and every one of us everyday. In Levitical Law, the ceremonial laws that governed the Isrealites no longer applies to us. Since the creation of Earth, God has had a covenant with Man. Levitical Law was God's covenant with Man in the Old Testament. But that changed when Christ sacrificed Himself for the sins of Man. That's what the Old and New Testaments refer to, the Old and the New covenant with Man.

In no way did God do away with the OT. We are no longer bound by Levitical Law, but are under grace. Note that not every principle in the OT falls under Levitical Law. Also, not every moral principle found in Leviticus, etc., fall under Levitical Law. Moral Law is found throughout all 66 books of the Bible, all of which are expected to be upheld today.

You will find many references in the Bible about acts commited by the characters. It's not intended to condone such behavior, but to illustrate how we should and shouldn't live, that we are to strive to be Christ-like. It gets irritating when people try their best to uncover something that really isn't there. Yes, we can eat shellfish; no, it's not a sin to have sex while on your cycle, and the list goes on. It's important to understand the context of God's Law/Moral Law vs. Ceremonial/Levitical Law.

If the OT were truly done away with, then the Ten Commandments need not apply.

ETA:

The passage you're referring to in Leviticus, OP, is a Moral Law.
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  #5  
May 13th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Okay, i think i understand where you guys are coming from better now... Thank you so much for explaining!
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  #6  
May 14th, 2007, 06:12 AM
chloe82
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I'd just like to say that some Christians don't think the Old Testament was done away with.[/b]

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to convey that I think the OT is null and void at all.....we still recognize the laws and do our best to live by them to please God, but with the recognition that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law so we are not bound to it by fear of judgement because we live in the freedom of grace now. But yeah, I wasn't trying to say that I dismiss the OT, just that the coming of christ changed the way I view the Laws of the OT.
Hope that makes more sense.
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  #7  
May 14th, 2007, 06:55 AM
chloe82
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Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

It can be narrowed down to the application of literal meaning to the passages in the Bible. Understanding the basis of what you're reading is key. For example, Moral Law can be found in various places in the Old Testament, not just the Ten Commandments. Moral Law undoubtably applies to each and every one of us everyday. In Levitical Law, the ceremonial laws that governed the Isrealites no longer applies to us. Since the creation of Earth, God has had a covenant with Man. Levitical Law was God's covenant with Man in the Old Testament. But that changed when Christ sacrificed Himself for the sins of Man. That's what the Old and New Testaments refer to, the Old and the New covenant with Man.

In no way did God do away with the OT. We are no longer bound by Levitical Law, but are under grace. Note that not every principle in the OT falls under Levitical Law. Also, not every moral principle found in Leviticus, etc., fall under Levitical Law. Moral Law is found throughout all 66 books of the Bible, all of which are expected to be upheld today.

You will find many references in the Bible about acts commited by the characters. It's not intended to condone such behavior, but to illustrate how we should and shouldn't live, that we are to strive to be Christ-like. It gets irritating when people try their best to uncover something that really isn't there. Yes, we can eat shellfish; no, it's not a sin to have sex while on your cycle, and the list goes on. It's important to understand the context of God's Law/Moral Law vs. Ceremonial/Levitical Law.

If the OT were truly done away with, then the Ten Commandments need not apply.

ETA:

The passage you're referring to in Leviticus, OP, is a Moral Law. [/b]

Specifically what I TRIED to say but beause I left of the word Levitical, made myself sound like I was doing away with all the laws of the OT. You make so much more sense than me!!!
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  #8  
May 14th, 2007, 05:24 PM
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It is my belief that the teachings of the OT have to be understood as a whole, in context, and with the authors' original intentions in mind. I also believe that for a Christian the OT has to be understood in the light of the teaching of the NT and the apostles.

ETA: I just realized that I pretty much summed up what's been already stated. Oh, well...
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  #9  
May 14th, 2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

It can be narrowed down to the application of literal meaning to the passages in the Bible. Understanding the basis of what you're reading is key. For example, Moral Law can be found in various places in the Old Testament, not just the Ten Commandments. Moral Law undoubtably applies to each and every one of us everyday. In Levitical Law, the ceremonial laws that governed the Isrealites no longer applies to us. Since the creation of Earth, God has had a covenant with Man. Levitical Law was God's covenant with Man in the Old Testament. But that changed when Christ sacrificed Himself for the sins of Man. That's what the Old and New Testaments refer to, the Old and the New covenant with Man.

In no way did God do away with the OT. We are no longer bound by Levitical Law, but are under grace. Note that not every principle in the OT falls under Levitical Law. Also, not every moral principle found in Leviticus, etc., fall under Levitical Law. Moral Law is found throughout all 66 books of the Bible, all of which are expected to be upheld today.

You will find many references in the Bible about acts commited by the characters. It's not intended to condone such behavior, but to illustrate how we should and shouldn't live, that we are to strive to be Christ-like. It gets irritating when people try their best to uncover something that really isn't there. Yes, we can eat shellfish; no, it's not a sin to have sex while on your cycle, and the list goes on. It's important to understand the context of God's Law/Moral Law vs. Ceremonial/Levitical Law.

If the OT were truly done away with, then the Ten Commandments need not apply.

ETA:

The passage you're referring to in Leviticus, OP, is a Moral Law. [/b]
So what you are saying is that Saturday(the seventh day) is still the sabbath day.. It is, but that's another topic.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd just like to say that some Christians don't think the Old Testament was done away with.[/b]

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to convey that I think the OT is null and void at all.....we still recognize the laws and do our best to live by them to please God, but with the recognition that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law so we are not bound to it by fear of judgement because we live in the freedom of grace now. But yeah, I wasn't trying to say that I dismiss the OT, just that the coming of christ changed the way I view the Laws of the OT.
Hope that makes more sense.
[/b]
Oh, no problem. I was actually referring to the original post anyways.
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  #10  
May 15th, 2007, 10:24 AM
bright future's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Here's my simple nutshell version...

God's law is God's perfect law. It's everything he wants for humans. It's how to live a perfectly pleasing-to-God life. It's also impossible because of the fall of man. God sent His Son to be a sin sacrifice for us all so we could be reconciled to Him. The law of the OT (there are some 600-something individual commandments in there) is still His law... nothing changes that. What the law does is show us our absolute failing as humans and our utter sinfulness, which then shows each of us our need for a savior and redemption.
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  #11  
May 15th, 2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Here's my simple nutshell version...

God's law is God's perfect law. It's everything he wants for humans. It's how to live a perfectly pleasing-to-God life. It's also impossible because of the fall of man. God sent His Son to be a sin sacrifice for us all so we could be reconciled to Him. The law of the OT (there are some 600-something individual commandments in there) is still His law... nothing changes that. What the law does is show us our absolute failing as humans and our utter sinfulness, which then shows each of us our need for a savior and redemption.[/b]

VERY well put, I was trying to say the exact same thing but couldnt get it on paper with the words that you put. Thank you I agree with you whole heart!!!
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  #12  
May 15th, 2007, 03:55 PM
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Well, as I said in the polygamy thread, I don't feel that God's prophets would BE prophets if having more than one wife had been wrong at some points in the Old Testament. Sexual sin is one of the worst sins and this would be considered adultery and though God does not choose perfect people to be his prophets, but they would be keeping his commands as best they could. God's purposes were fulfilled THROUGH having more than one wife on quite a few occasions. That said, I also believe that unless God commands it, it is wrong, thus in the case of King David and Solomon and they were both punished for this.

Now that I give that background. I feel that when Christ fulfilled the Law it wasn't the entire laws of the Old Testament He referred to. He fulfilled the Law of Moses, which abolished the law of sacrifice of animals and instead the sacrifice is supposed to be our own broken hearts. And the 10 commandments weren't abolished, we still follow them, but the new commandment is as follows "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart.... This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou salt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" Matt 22:36-40 He gave a greater commandment that encompasses them all, but doesn't negate the others.
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  #13  
May 15th, 2007, 04:14 PM
bright future's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Now that I give that background. I feel that when Christ fulfilled the Law it wasn't the entire laws of the Old Testament He referred to. He fulfilled the Law of Moses, which abolished the law of sacrifice of animals and instead the sacrifice is supposed to be our own broken hearts. And the 10 commandments weren't abolished, we still follow them, but the new commandment is as follows "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart.... This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou salt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" Matt 22:36-40 He gave a greater commandment that encompasses them all, but doesn't negate the others.[/b]
Interesting... the separation of the Law of Moses from the rest of the laws... neat point. I totally agree with the greater commandment statement... and I have a question for you (that was sort of brought up earlier in the thread I think):

What does the LDS faith say about observing the Sabbath as part of the 10 commandments?
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  #14  
May 17th, 2007, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Now that I give that background. I feel that when Christ fulfilled the Law it wasn't the entire laws of the Old Testament He referred to. He fulfilled the Law of Moses, which abolished the law of sacrifice of animals and instead the sacrifice is supposed to be our own broken hearts. And the 10 commandments weren't abolished, we still follow them, but the new commandment is as follows "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart.... This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou salt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" Matt 22:36-40 He gave a greater commandment that encompasses them all, but doesn't negate the others.[/b]
Interesting... the separation of the Law of Moses from the rest of the laws... neat point. I totally agree with the greater commandment statement... and I have a question for you (that was sort of brought up earlier in the thread I think):

What does the LDS faith say about observing the Sabbath as part of the 10 commandments?
[/b]

Are you wondering how we keep it holy in regards to following that commandment or are you asking if we observe the Sabbath on Sunday rather than on Saturday as it was done originally?
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  #15  
May 18th, 2007, 09:48 AM
bright future's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Are you wondering how we keep it holy in regards to following that commandment or are you asking if we observe the Sabbath on Sunday rather than on Saturday as it was done originally?[/b]
Both I guess. Christians in general are so divided on what the sabbath is and how it is observed.
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  #16  
May 18th, 2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Are you wondering how we keep it holy in regards to following that commandment or are you asking if we observe the Sabbath on Sunday rather than on Saturday as it was done originally?[/b]
Both I guess. Christians in general are so divided on what the sabbath is and how it is observed.
[/b]

We believe that the Sabbath is a sacred day, a day of rest. It was originally observed on Saturday, but with Christ's resurrection and fulfillment of the laws and rising on Sunday, it changed. Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." We try not to work or spend money on Sunday or make anyone work on the Sabbath. This doesn't mean we don't do the chores that have to be done daily and some people because of their jobs can't help if they have to work on Sunday, but we try to make every effort not to. And on occasion the "ox is in the mire" so to speak and we have to purchase on the Sabbath, but most of the time it can be avoided by planning ahead the day before. We attend our church meetings and spend the rest of the day with family or studying and worshiping. There are general guidelines and others we leave to the individual or family and the Lord.
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