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consequences in the military


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  #1  
May 18th, 2007, 06:21 AM
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Should a military member that cheats or abuses their spouse automatically lose rank???
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  #2  
May 18th, 2007, 08:08 AM
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It is not an automatic punishment. But, in the cases where the abuser/adulterer is punished, then yes it is suitable. In the AF our core values were: Intergrity first, service before self and excellence in all we do. The previously named infractions do not uphold any of these values. These are clearly stated in the UCMJ to be punishable offenses, and it is no secret. If someone thinks a piece of a** is worth their career, then that is on their head. As far as spousal abuse, there is ZERO excuse for that, they should be court martialed and dishonarably discharged.
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  #3  
May 18th, 2007, 08:10 AM
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I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.
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  #5  
May 18th, 2007, 09:00 AM
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Yeah I agree with losing rank. If you cannot hold up to the standards you shouldn't have rank. I've also seen restriction, extra duty, and loss of pay handed out all at the same time. There is absoloutly no excuse for cheating on or abusing a spouse!
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  #6  
May 18th, 2007, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.[/b]

I agree! Abuse is something that you can be charged with and jailed for whether you are civilian or military. I think if you are convicted of abuse you should lose rank or be completely removed from the military. However, cheating is something that I see as a more private matter. I know they are supposed to uphold certain standards but I still believe it is a personal issue. I find cheating to be very hard to judge because you hardly ever know the whole story.
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  #7  
May 18th, 2007, 09:52 AM
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I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.[/b]

I agree! Abuse is something that you can be charged with and jailed for whether you are civilian or military. I think if you are convicted of abuse you should lose rank or be completely removed from the military. However, cheating is something that I see as a more private matter. I know they are supposed to uphold certain standards but I still believe it is a personal issue. I find cheating to be very hard to judge because you hardly ever know the whole story.
[/b]
When you are in the military, very little is a private matter, because it does affect those around you. Example and true story, one of my DHs coworkers last year was on the advanced team to go to Iraq, they left a few weeks earlier than everyone else to relieve some other troops. The week after he left his wife began sleeping with another guy in the same squadron...in the same shop, one of his friends. So, let me break it down. He is sitting in Iraq, in a hostile zone, and finds out his beloved wife is cheating on him with a friend and coworker. Do you think he was 100%? Do you believe that his head could possibly have been where it was supposed to be? Do you understand that this endangers those that are working with him? The same goes for the wife banging friend, he was under the microscope and pressure because people, including his friend, her husband, knew about it.

The reason adultery is a violation of the UCMJ is because the military must live everyday as if it is war. There cannot be one set of written rules for peace time and then when war happens the new "war rules" is broken out. There is a moral code and it is in place for a reason. Personally, I have never seen this particular article of the UCMJ enforced, not in the slightest, and I have seen my fair share of cheaters in the military. However, it is there for a reason. Such behaviors do have an affect on one's psyche, and if one person is distracted by these actions, it endangers everyone around him/her.
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  #8  
May 18th, 2007, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.[/b]

I agree! Abuse is something that you can be charged with and jailed for whether you are civilian or military. I think if you are convicted of abuse you should lose rank or be completely removed from the military. However, cheating is something that I see as a more private matter. I know they are supposed to uphold certain standards but I still believe it is a personal issue. I find cheating to be very hard to judge because you hardly ever know the whole story.
[/b]
When you are in the military, very little is a private matter, because it does affect those around you. Example and true story, one of my DHs coworkers last year was on the advanced team to go to Iraq, they left a few weeks earlier than everyone else to relieve some other troops. The week after he left his wife began sleeping with another guy in the same squadron...in the same shop, one of his friends. So, let me break it down. He is sitting in Iraq, in a hostile zone, and finds out his beloved wife is cheating on him with a friend and coworker. Do you think he was 100%? Do you believe that his head could possibly have been where it was supposed to be? Do you understand that this endangers those that are working with him? The same goes for the wife banging friend, he was under the microscope and pressure because people, including his friend, her husband, knew about it.

The reason adultery is a violation of the UCMJ is because the military must live everyday as if it is war. There cannot be one set of written rules for peace time and then when war happens the new "war rules" is broken out. There is a moral code and it is in place for a reason. Personally, I have never seen this particular article of the UCMJ enforced, not in the slightest, and I have seen my fair share of cheaters in the military. However, it is there for a reason. Such behaviors do have an affect on one's psyche, and if one person is distracted by these actions, it endangers everyone around him/her.
[/b]

I HAVE seen it enforced. Unfortunately. The guy lost rank, pay, and was nearly court marshaled.

I'm iffy on the cheating. I think that cheating shouldn't be tolerated anywhere, but I think you punish the family, including the children, when you take away pay.
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  #9  
May 18th, 2007, 10:21 AM
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I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.[/b]

I agree! Abuse is something that you can be charged with and jailed for whether you are civilian or military. I think if you are convicted of abuse you should lose rank or be completely removed from the military. However, cheating is something that I see as a more private matter. I know they are supposed to uphold certain standards but I still believe it is a personal issue. I find cheating to be very hard to judge because you hardly ever know the whole story.
[/b]
When you are in the military, very little is a private matter, because it does affect those around you. Example and true story, one of my DHs coworkers last year was on the advanced team to go to Iraq, they left a few weeks earlier than everyone else to relieve some other troops. The week after he left his wife began sleeping with another guy in the same squadron...in the same shop, one of his friends. So, let me break it down. He is sitting in Iraq, in a hostile zone, and finds out his beloved wife is cheating on him with a friend and coworker. Do you think he was 100%? Do you believe that his head could possibly have been where it was supposed to be? Do you understand that this endangers those that are working with him? The same goes for the wife banging friend, he was under the microscope and pressure because people, including his friend, her husband, knew about it.

The reason adultery is a violation of the UCMJ is because the military must live everyday as if it is war. There cannot be one set of written rules for peace time and then when war happens the new "war rules" is broken out. There is a moral code and it is in place for a reason. Personally, I have never seen this particular article of the UCMJ enforced, not in the slightest, and I have seen my fair share of cheaters in the military. However, it is there for a reason. Such behaviors do have an affect on one's psyche, and if one person is distracted by these actions, it endangers everyone around him/her.
[/b]
I do understand that it could affect the way the person performs his/her job. However, if that wife had cheated with someone who wasn't in the military the husband would have felt just as poorly but nothing really could have been done about it. There are plenty of jobs that can be potentially dangerous if the worker is distracted. For instance, I'm not sure I'd want to be on a plane with a pilot who just found out his wife was cheating.

Cheating is of course wrong. I just don't think it is something that should be punishable at the person's job (unless the person was cheating with a coworker at a place that forbids employee to employee relationships).
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  #10  
May 18th, 2007, 11:12 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhmomofmany @ May 18 2007, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>I'm civilian and so I almost hesitate to give my opinion. I will anyway, though. My answer is, no, they shouldn't automatically lose rank. Obviously if the situation is spousal abuse, the perp should go to prison and that would lead to loss of rank and/or discharge, I would think. But if the situation is infidelity, I don't think there should be professional ramifications unless it either causes public scandal or was occuring within the workplace.[/b]

I agree! Abuse is something that you can be charged with and jailed for whether you are civilian or military. I think if you are convicted of abuse you should lose rank or be completely removed from the military. However, cheating is something that I see as a more private matter. I know they are supposed to uphold certain standards but I still believe it is a personal issue. I find cheating to be very hard to judge because you hardly ever know the whole story.
[/b]
When you are in the military, very little is a private matter, because it does affect those around you. Example and true story, one of my DHs coworkers last year was on the advanced team to go to Iraq, they left a few weeks earlier than everyone else to relieve some other troops. The week after he left his wife began sleeping with another guy in the same squadron...in the same shop, one of his friends. So, let me break it down. He is sitting in Iraq, in a hostile zone, and finds out his beloved wife is cheating on him with a friend and coworker. Do you think he was 100%? Do you believe that his head could possibly have been where it was supposed to be? Do you understand that this endangers those that are working with him? The same goes for the wife banging friend, he was under the microscope and pressure because people, including his friend, her husband, knew about it.

The reason adultery is a violation of the UCMJ is because the military must live everyday as if it is war. There cannot be one set of written rules for peace time and then when war happens the new "war rules" is broken out. There is a moral code and it is in place for a reason. Personally, I have never seen this particular article of the UCMJ enforced, not in the slightest, and I have seen my fair share of cheaters in the military. However, it is there for a reason. Such behaviors do have an affect on one's psyche, and if one person is distracted by these actions, it endangers everyone around him/her.
[/b][/quote]

I do understand that it could affect the way the person performs his/her job. However, if that wife had cheated with someone who wasn't in the military the husband would have felt just as poorly but nothing really could have been done about it. There are plenty of jobs that can be potentially dangerous if the worker is distracted. For instance, I'm not sure I'd want to be on a plane with a pilot who just found out his wife was cheating.

Cheating is of course wrong. I just don't think it is something that should be punishable at the person's job (unless the person was cheating with a coworker at a place that forbids employee to employee relationships).
[/b][/quote]
Well, then it just goes back to the argument that everyone that is in the military knows that adultery is a violation of the UCMJ. If you think that losing rank and taking a paycut is worth taking that risk then that person, alone, is responsible for those actions. The military is not anything like a civilian job, the rules are completely different. A pilot finding out his wife just cheated is not as risky as someone on the front lines standing next to you dealing with it or involved in it.
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  #11  
May 18th, 2007, 11:41 AM
Butter's Avatar Heather the Mama Duk
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Depends on the situation. Of course if they have gone into it knowing the rules, then they should suffer the consequences.
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  #12  
May 18th, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Well, then it just goes back to the argument that everyone that is in the military knows that adultery is a violation of the UCMJ.[/b]
Okay, I'm not sure what UCMJ stands for... is it some type of code of conduct or ethics that military personnel are bound to? (Sorry to ask such an ignorant question...)
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  #13  
May 18th, 2007, 12:29 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Well, then it just goes back to the argument that everyone that is in the military knows that adultery is a violation of the UCMJ.[/b]
Okay, I'm not sure what UCMJ stands for... is it some type of code of conduct or ethics that military personnel are bound to? (Sorry to ask such an ignorant question...)
[/b][/quote]
It is the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Adultery violates General Article (Article 134)
It is not that easy to prove, much less punish.
Elements.

(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;

(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and

(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

Explanation.

(1) Nature of offense. Adultery is clearly unacceptable conduct, and it reflects adversely on the service record of the military member.

(2) Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline or of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. To constitute an offense under the UCMJ, the adulterous conduct must either be directly prejudicial to good order and discipline or service discrediting.


Adulterous conduct that is directly prejudicial includes conduct that has an obvious, and measurably divisive effect on unit or organization discipline, morale, or cohesion, or is clearly detrimental to the authority or stature of or respect toward a servicemember. Adultery may also be service discrediting, even though the conduct is only indirectly or remotely prejudicial to good order and discipline. Discredit means to injure the reputation of the armed forces and includes adulterous conduct that has a tendency, because of its open or notorious nature, to bring the service into disrepute, make it subject to public ridicule, or lower it in public esteem. While adulterous conduct that is private and discreet in nature may not be service discrediting by this standard, under the circumstances, it may be determined to be conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline. Commanders should consider all relevant circumstances, including but not limited to the following factors, when determining whether adulterous acts are prejudicial to good order and discipline or are of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces:

(a) The accused's marital status, military rank, grade, or position;

(B) The co-actor's marital status, military rank, grade, and position, or relationship to the armed forces;

© The military status of the accused's spouse or the spouse of co-actor, or their relationship to the armed forces;

(d) The impact, if any, of the adulterous relationship on the ability of the accused, the co-actor, or the spouse of either to perform their duties in support of the armed forces;

(e) The misuse, if any, of government time and resources to facilitate the commission of the conduct;

(f) Whether the conduct persisted despite counseling or orders to desist; the flagrancy of the conduct, such as whether any notoriety ensued; and whether the adulterous act was accompanied by other violations of the UCMJ;

(g) The negative impact of the conduct on the units or organizations of the accused, the co-actor or the spouse of either of them, such as a detrimental effect on unit or organization morale, teamwork, and efficiency;

(h) Whether the accused or co-actor was legally separated; and

(i) Whether the adulterous misconduct involves an ongoing or recent relationship or is remote in time.

(3) Marriage. A marriage exists until it is dissolved in accordance with the laws of a competent state or foreign jurisdiction.

(4) Mistake of fact. A defense of mistake of fact exists if the accused had an honest and reasonable belief either that the accused and the co-actor were both unmarried, or that they were lawfully married to each other. If this defense is raised by the evidence, then the burden of proof is upon the United States to establish that the accused's belief was unreasonable or not honest.".

These violations all fall under the same General Article:
Abusing public animal.
Indecent exposure.
-Adultery.
-Indecent language.
-Assault, indecent.
-Indecent acts w/ another.
-Assault, w/ intent to murder, rape, etc.
-Jumping from vessel into water.
-Bigamy.
-Kidnapping.
-Bribery & graft.
-Mail: taking, opening, destroying, stealing.
-Burning w/ intent to defraud.
-Mail: depositing obscene matters in.
-Check, worthless, making & uttering.
-Misprision of serious offense.
-Cohabitation, wrongful.
-Obstructing justice.
-Debt, dishonorable failure to pay.
-Wrongful interference admin proceeding.
-Disloyal statements.
-Pandering & prostitution.
-Disorderly conduct, drunkeness.
-Perjury, subomation.
-Drinking liquor w/ prisoner.
-Public record: altering, destroying, etc.
-Drunk prisoner.
-Quarantine: medical, breaking.
-Drunkenness, incapacitation for duty.
-Restriction, breaking.
-False or unathorized pass.
-Seizure of property: preventing.
-False pretenses, obtaining services under.
-Sentinel or lookout: offenses against or by.
-False swearing.
-Soliciting another to commit an offense.
-Firearm, discharging through negligence.
-Stolen property: knowing receipt, etc.
-Firearm, willfully discharging, endangering life.
-Straggling.
-Fleeing scene of accident.
-Testify: wrongful refusal.
-Fraternization.
-Threat or hoax: bomb.
-Gambling w/ subordinate.
-Threat, communicating.
-Homicide, negligent.
-Unlawful entry.
-Impersonating Officer, WO, NCO, or official.
-Weapon, concealed carrying.
-Indecent acts or liberties w/ child.
-Wearing unauthorized insignia, badge, etc.

www.usmilitary.about.com
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  #14  
May 18th, 2007, 03:35 PM
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Thanks, Stacey!
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  #15  
May 18th, 2007, 07:50 PM
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I know to prove someone is cheating you have to have evidence... its almost necessary... they will not investagate you on say so... I know my exhubby cheated and I did not say a dang word... I kept my mouth shut because I KNOW the military would have made OUR lives miserable. I dealt with it and divorced him. I don't want the military in my life more than they are now... THAT IS MY OPINION... if you are EVER under investigation it follows you. But adultery in the military is NOT uncommon prior to contrary belief...
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