Abortion is a sin

#1 June 30th, 2007, 05:40 PM

I've read the Bible.. Where does it say abortion is a sin?

#2 June 30th, 2007, 05:45 PM

I'm assuming it's an interpretation of one passage or another but not directly quoted out of the Bible? I'm not sure...

Gina1978 · #3 June 30th, 2007, 06:06 PM

I would never use those words to describe it...but I do think its wrong.Especially when people use abortion as a form of "birth control"

(Iv seen it happen).
Iv never read the bible,so I dont know about where it would say that...but Im asuming that way back then,it didnt even exsist so why would it even be in there kwim?

Banned-pumpkinandpudding · #4 June 30th, 2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

I've read the Bible.. Where does it say abortion is a sin?[/b]

It's doesn't. The belief that the bible itself forbids abortion is a myth. In fact, the bible never once touches on the issue of abortion, although abortion was not at all uncommon at the time. In at least one place in the bible, it can be argued that a fetus was not considered endowed with the same rights of personhood. (Exodus 21:22) Although I do believe that different denominations interpret that passage differently, while other denominations will maintain that the Old Testament was an Old Law and therefore no longer relevant. But, if that is the case, then the fact that the Bible never again mentions abortion (again, although it was certainly a consideration in that time) can be somewhat construed as significant.

Which only leaves the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill", which is a rule that every society can agree with. No one can deny that the taking of another's life is reprehensible, regardless of religious beliefs. But, it can also be argued that one cannot break the commandment if there is not person that has been killed. The theological challenge here has been to find Biblical text that will definitively declare when a fetus becomes ensouled, and then, by Biblical standards, a person.

Where I've read and been told that some Christians will argue that when ensoulment (or the becoming of a person) is irrelevant because the zygote is still human life and so killing it is wrong. But, it's relevant to note that the Hebrew term for this commandment is rasach which most accurately translated means "murder" and is in itself a relative term. At the time of the commandments many forms of killing were considered legal and according to Biblical texts God sanctioned Israel permisson to kill - including men, women, children and infants.

Which then brings us to Levitical law (OK, I know, NO ONE is surprised I made it back to law in this topic

) Levitical law in the Bible has huge gaps and is it is acknowledged by theologians that the levitical law is incomplete. So, if abortion was ever a part of Levitical law, we'll never know what it was exactly.

We can, however, in these instances, look to Jewish law to find out what the rules/laws for the time were to get some idea.

Under Jewish law, an embryo is not a viable living thing until thirty days after it's birth. (Kayama, I believe, is a sect of Judaism that believes somewhat differently.) Jewish law goes so far as to say that one is not allowed to observe mourning for a miscarriage. Which means that under Jewish law, an abortion is not murder, since a child must be alive for 30 days to be considered a person. Jewish scholars have often agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law.

Even under most Christian interpretations, life for Adam began not when God created his body, but when he gave Adam the breath of life.

And then, we've come full circle to the body/soul dichotomy. The flesh is transient, but the soul everlasting. But if the soul is everlasting, then what harm to the soul if the corporeal being is disposed of?

And, now, I am off to read more from my theology texts to see read up on this some more. I remember this being a huge topic in my classes at the time.

ETA: It's interesting to note that abortion was never outlawed by a church (or the church forbid the practice of abortion) as part of it's dogma until 1581AD, when it was rescinded three years later. It wasn't religiously outlawed again until 1891AD and that was a political move, not on the religious and biblical basis.

#5 June 30th, 2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Under Jewish law, an embryo is not a viable living thing until thirty days after it's birth. (Kayama, I believe, is a sect of Judaism that believes somewhat differently.) Jewish law goes so far as to say that one is not allowed to observe mourning for a miscarriage. Which means that under Jewish law, an abortion is not murder, since a child must be alive for 30 days to be considered a person. Jewish scholars have often agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law.[/b]

***...

Banned-pumpkinandpudding · #6 June 30th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Quote:

Under Jewish law, an embryo is not a viable living thing until thirty days after it's birth. (Kayama, I believe, is a sect of Judaism that believes somewhat differently.) Jewish law goes so far as to say that one is not allowed to observe mourning for a miscarriage. Which means that under Jewish law, an abortion is not murder, since a child must be alive for 30 days to be considered a person. Jewish scholars have often agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law.[/b]

***...
[/b][/quote]

Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write Jewish law.

ETA - I do believe though that while the mourning of one under the age of thirty days is not allowed that the beliefs in most sects of Judaism is now that it is a person when the head emerges from the womb, or something similar. I'm not a Jewish scholar, by any means, but I do think that is the belief of most.

wifey2kevin · #7 June 30th, 2007, 07:07 PM

here is a website that explains very well, what i believe about abortion from a religious stand point.
http://www.carm.org/questions/abortion.htm
it answers a lot of questions.

eta.....remember that this IS a christian website, but this is where i come from.

pinkpercolator · #8 June 30th, 2007, 07:21 PM

The word abortion I think is not in the bible. But indirectly I think the bible teaches to have respect for life. So that is where the abortion is a sin came in. I don't know where in the bible it says things about respecting life.

#9 June 30th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

The word abortion I think is not in the bible. But indirectly I think the bible teaches to have respect for life. So that is where the abortion is a sin came in. I don't know where in the bible it says things about respecting life.[/b]

I don't think anyone who has an abortion doesn't have respect for life. I'm pro-choice but I have a huge amount of respect for life.

Banned-Mommieof3 · #10 June 30th, 2007, 07:29 PM

I pic and choose from the Bible anyway, but just for the hell of it...

What about the passage(s)--I don't remember which one--that states that God made the person while in the womb..., it insinuated (if not outrightly said) that the person was a whole person (with a soul) before birth?

As far as Judiasm...isn't Sharon against abortion? Doesn't she believe that the unborn are to be respected as (potential) life at the very least (barring extreme circumstances)?

Judiasm truly prohibits the mourning of a miscarriage/stillbirth/neonatal death?? I have never got that impression from any of Sharon's posts.

Edited because one of my letters is not wor_ing (see?) so I just edited the word out (it produced an entirely different word).

Banned-pumpkinandpudding · #11 June 30th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Quote:

I pic and choose from the Bible anyway, but just for the hell of it...

What about the passage(s)--I don't remember which one--that states that God made the person while in the womb...lie, it insinuated (if not outrightly said) that the person was a whole person (with a soul) before birth?[/b]

Psalms 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

This is part of a Psalm of David's. The idea of being woven from the earth was not unique to David, and was actually a common belief about pregnancy throughout the lands at that time. Much of Israel, including it's most respected philosophers (Heck, even Plato believed) that infants were woven together from the soil underground and were then somehow - magically, mystically, supernaturally, and for David apparently, divinely, lifted from the ground into the mother's womb fully formed.

On it's own, however, the passage itself is not indicative of God's command against abortion. Merely David's belief that God had a hand in his underground formation.

Mom2DavidandAaron · #12 June 30th, 2007, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Under Jewish law, an embryo is not a viable living thing until thirty days after it's birth. (Kayama, I believe, is a sect of Judaism that believes somewhat differently.) Jewish law goes so far as to say that one is not allowed to observe mourning for a miscarriage. Which means that under Jewish law, an abortion is not murder, since a child must be alive for 30 days to be considered a person. Jewish scholars have often agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law.[/b]

I don't know where you got that info, but it's not exactly true. Yes, Judaism doesn't ban all abortions, but it allows it under very special circumstances. Under Jewish Law a child is "alive" before that. 40 days after conception part of the soul enters so it's considered a "potential" life. What we call the neshamah or "G-dly soul" enters when girla are born and when boys have their brit milah.
However, abortion isn't legal in Judaism except on certai nconditions. Since this is a potential life, it has to be respected. It's also considred G-d's will and soul that needs to fulfill a mission, therefore we cannot end it's life just because we fill like it. Abortion is acceptable in Judaism when the life of the mother is in danger as a direct consequence of being pregnant. Why? Because a "complete" life has preference over a "potential" life. But abortion as birth control or even due to genetic defect isn't permitted, although each case has to be evaluated individually. Most authorities agree that psychological factors may be considered a threat to the mother and therefore an abortion is permitted.
Here's some info:

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenat..._Jewish_Law.asp

Sharon

Banned-pumpkinandpudding · #13 June 30th, 2007, 07:49 PM

Quote:

I pic and choose from the Bible anyway, but just for the hell of it...

What about the passage(s)--I don't remember which one--that states that God made the person while in the womb...lie, it insinuated (if not outrightly said) that the person was a whole person (with a soul) before birth?

As far as Judiasm...isn't Sharon against abortion? Doesn't she believe that the unborn are to be respected as (potential) life at the very least (barring extreme circumstances)?

Judiasm truly prohibits the mourning of a miscarriage/stillbirth/neonatal death?? I have never got that impression from any of Sharon's posts.

[/b]

I missed this while responding earlier. Again, I'm not an expert on Judaism. I was referencing Jewish law that was known to be common at that time. I do believe (although I don't know for certain) that Judaism (although my understanding is that different sects have slightly different beliefs) that life begins when the child exits the womb - or something to that effect. I've no idea what the current belief on mourning is.

I'm sorry to have caused that confusion.

Mom2DavidandAaron · #14 June 30th, 2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Judiasm truly prohibits the mourning of a miscarriage/stillbirth/neonatal death?? I have never got that impression from any of Sharon's posts.

[/b]

No, of course not. It's a loss and you're allowed to mourn it. I think the confussion lies in the laws of mourning in Judaism. When a person dies, the direct relatives (paretns, siblings, spouse and children) sit "shivah" for 7 days. That's the mourning period according to Jewish Law and this period has its own set of rules and traditions. It is a way of helping the mournesrs get back together, but spiritually speaking, it's also a way to help the departed's soul to reach its place in the World to Come.
Since a newborn (up to a child under 13, I think) doesn't require that aid, as it goes directly to "Heaven" (for lack of a better word), those 7 days aren't needed, therefore the mourners only observe the laws of shivah for 1 day. That doesn't mean that they're not allowed to mourn, and a newborn is certainly buried.

Sharon

Banned-Mommieof3 · #15 June 30th, 2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote:

Under Jewish law, an embryo is not a viable living thing until thirty days after it's birth. (Kayama, I believe, is a sect of Judaism that believes somewhat differently.) Jewish law goes so far as to say that one is not allowed to observe mourning for a miscarriage. Which means that under Jewish law, an abortion is not murder, since a child must be alive for 30 days to be considered a person. Jewish scholars have often agreed that abortion was legal under Jewish law.[/b]

I don't know where you got that info, but it's not exactly true. Yes, Judaism doesn't ban all abortions, but it allows it under very special circumstances. Under Jewish Law a child is "alive" before that. 40 days after conception part of the soul enters so it's considered a "potential" life. What we call the neshamah or "G-dly soul" enters when girla are born and when boys have their brit milah.
However, abortion isn't legal in Judaism except on certai nconditions. Since this is a potential life, it has to be respected. It's also considred G-d's will and soul that needs to fulfill a mission, therefore we cannot end it's life just because we fill like it. Abortion is acceptable in Judaism when the life of the mother is in danger as a direct consequence of being pregnant. Why? Because a "complete" life has preference over a "potential" life. But abortion as birth control or even due to genetic defect isn't permitted, although each case has to be evaluated individually. Most authorities agree that psychological factors may be considered a threat to the mother and therefore an abortion is permitted.
Here's some info:

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenat..._Jewish_Law.asp

Sharon
[/b]

Thanks Sharon. I got a little confused.

ETA: the 'k', it wasn't working before.

bright future · #16 June 30th, 2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Thans (stupid letter isn't worin) Sharon. I got a little confused.[/b]

ROFLOL, I can't help but laugh at your K problem... sorry... back to the topic... a very interesting conversation

Momo · #17 June 30th, 2007, 10:43 PM

While the Bible doesn't have the word "abortion" in it there are instances where it is clear that God is intimately involved in the creation process of an unborn child.

"Before I formed you in the womb I new you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jer. 1:5

Here we see that God formed Jeremiah in the womb, he was actively involved in this process. I see it as an act of love. Not only that but even while in the womb God has a plan for people's lives. Jeremiah was to become a powerful prophet. Is it just Jeremiah that God formed and created a plan for?

Likewise in the old testament 2 Chronicles 28:3 speaks of the detestable practice of child sacrifice that the followers of Baal practiced. Is not abortion similar? It is merely sacrificing to other "gods" whatever the reason may be, aside from health reasons.

Jesus emphasizes the importance of allowing little children to come to him. How can they if they aren't given a chance to come into this world?

Banned-Mommieof3 · #18 June 30th, 2007, 11:29 PM

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<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote:

Thans (stupid letter isn't worin) Sharon. I got a little confused.[/b]

ROFLOL, I can't help but laugh at your K problem... sorry... back to the topic... a very interesting conversation[/b]

I didn't know if anyone would understand what was going on! lol

Quote:

While the Bible doesn't have the word "abortion" in it there are instances where it is clear that God is intimately involved in the creation process of an unborn child. "Before I formed you in the womb I new you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jer. 1:5Here we see that God formed Jeremiah in the womb, he was actively involved in this process. I see it as an act of love. Not only that but even while in the womb God has a plan for people's lives. Jeremiah was to become a powerful prophet. Is it just Jeremiah that God formed and created a plan for? Likewise in the old testament 2 Chronicles 28:3 speaks of the detestable practice of child sacrifice that the followers of Baal practiced. Is not abortion similar? It is merely sacrificing to other "gods" whatever the reason may be, aside from health reasons.Jesus emphasizes the importance of allowing little children to come to him. How can they if they aren't given a chance to come into this world?[/b]

YES THAT ONE!!! lol, that was the one I was thinking of!

Niamh ૐ · #19 July 1st, 2007, 10:32 AM

Just some interesting articles a friend of mine left on another forum site to explain how one could be pro-choice and a Christian. (these are not necessarily my views, just interesting articles):

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/christianperspectives.pdf

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/abortion

http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/...hristians_.html

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/abortion.html

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/abortion/index.htm

Banned-pumpkinandpudding · #20 July 1st, 2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

While the Bible doesn't have the word "abortion" in it there are instances where it is clear that God is intimately involved in the creation process of an unborn child.

"Before I formed you in the womb I new you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jer. 1:5

Here we see that God formed Jeremiah in the womb, he was actively involved in this process. I see it as an act of love. Not only that but even while in the womb God has a plan for people's lives. Jeremiah was to become a powerful prophet. Is it just Jeremiah that God formed and created a plan for?

Likewise in the old testament 2 Chronicles 28:3 speaks of the detestable practice of child sacrifice that the followers of Baal practiced. Is not abortion similar? It is merely sacrificing to other "gods" whatever the reason may be, aside from health reasons.

Jesus emphasizes the importance of allowing little children to come to him. How can they if they aren't given a chance to come into this world?[/b]

Except that, in a historical biblical sense, this passage was designed to address one specific person, Jeremiah, who was called upon by God to be a prophet and do miraculous works through his powers as a prophet to the world. In this instance, God was addressing the one man, not all men. In context of much of the bible, God is very specific when addressing a singular person versus the whole of mankind. In the simplest of terms (assuming that we pick and choose which half of the bible one should adhere to - OT or NT - and the book of Jeremiah is OT) then we can discount this as a message to all for what is expected of them on the basis that not all of man is pre-ordained to be a prophet of God.

Also, in 2 Chronicles 28 God is speaking about the people he had cast out of Israel who were killing their children in the name of a false god. It was all of their actions combined which led God to tell the people they were to do none of these things in the name of worshiping false gods. The man in question, IIRC, is King Azah (spelling questionable here) who did evil things in defiance of God.