[~*sierra*~]

I was just reading angela's thread about looking for a pediatrician and it occured to me that i have no clue what the deal with vaccines is. Why do people choose to/not to vaccinate? Is it really a choice? Like why would some doctors force vaccines on children if the parents don't want it? I remember reading another birth story thread in here about how the nurses and doctors were giving the mom he!! about vaccinating her baby after just having given birth, even though she didnt want to. I felt that was totally out of line and unprofessional of the medical staff, but I guess my question really is what are the pros and cons of vaccinating and not vaccinating?

(ps. no debating - but i know you ladies won't )

[Oriyan]

Because there isn't a 100% answer on if vaccines are safe or not, mom's these days are being more careful about what they are putting in their children's bodies -- especially when you have a shot like MMR where the research surrounding it is SO conflicting Yes autism rates are higher, no its not! Yes it is! Not its not! Blame Mercury! Don't blame mercury blame the rhoGAM shot! Its enough to make a mom's head spin. So what happens is mom decides "Ok i am going to wait" or "this isn't for my child". Children do a lot of big time important developing in the first year of life and some people believe that vaccines can harm certain developments or cause certain problems.

There are some other people who believe, well, I got all my shots as a kid and I am fine so my kid will be fine too! And vaccinate their kids and then their kids are just fine.

The main pro to vaccinating is your child is protected against a disease that can potentially be fatal.

The main con is the unknown. No one can FOR SURE say that vaccines are safe.


So mom's are forced to make big time decisions regarding their childrens health with facts from all over the place.

Now, medical staff pushing shots on mom and baby -- WRONG WRONG WRONG. I'm not sure what I am gonna do about the Vit K shot and eye ointment, its a state law for me that I can't say no to apparently

[~*sierra*~]

Wow - that is so crazy. i cant believe its an actual law that you have to put stuff on your baby after birth. what about if you had an unassisted home birth? are you breaking laws if you just have your baby that way and stay home where the docs and nurses cant enforce that law?

i can see why moms would jsut say 'forget it' when it comes to vaccines, with all that conflicting info... it must be overwhelming.

thanks for all the info

[bittersweet]

Well, the answer you get for the pro/con question is going to be varied depending on who you ask.

For me...vaccines are not totally benign, but they are shown to be safe and effective for MOST. With that said, like any drug or medical procedure, there will be some people who have adverse reactions to vaccinations or dont achieve the desired effect. Yes, vaccines do contain very small amounts of potentially harmful substances, but so does the produce we eat, the air we breath, any many things we ingest in general.

You cannot argue the fact that vaccines have eradicated or significantly decreased multiple horrible, torturous, and fatal illnesses. Most people now a days havent seen a child suffer and die from polio, small pox, tetanus, etc But everything is a cycle. If everyone stopped vaccinating, these diseases will destroy lives again....and then everyone will want vaccinations once again. I work in a pediatric intensive care unit and we've have a too many cases of babies nearly dieing and having to be supported for weeks on a ventilator and pressors from things like bacertial menningitis and epiglottitis caused by haemophilus influenzae B (and not getting their HIB vaccine). My point is vaccines protect against very real things, but this is forgotten b/c most people and even drs. dont see these diseases any more. But that is only b/c of most people being vaccinated.

With that said, I think you just need to weigh the risks and benefits for your children. I almost died from a paticular vaccine as a baby and so did multiple cousins in my family. So for me, I know this paticular vaccine causes problems for us, so I will not give it to my child.

Most Drs will tell you to get them all of them on time. So if you think you may not want to, you will be on your own to educate yourself. But whatever you decide, I hope your provider will support your choices.

[Oriyan]

Originally Posted by sarahmarina

Wow - that is so crazy. i cant believe its an actual law that you have to put stuff on your baby after birth. what about if you had an unassisted home birth? are you breaking laws if you just have your baby that way and stay home where the docs and nurses cant enforce that law?

i can see why moms would jsut say 'forget it' when it comes to vaccines, with all that conflicting info... it must be overwhelming.

thanks for all the info

I've been thinking about it.... but i live in an apartment -- not sure my neighbors wanna hear me giving birth Having a home birth, i'd need a midwife at least, and with that my child wouldn't need anything -- when the doctor asks if the child had received all its "at birth" things, all I'd need to say is "my midwife did everything requested". DH isn't really on board yet......

[IamMom]

Originally Posted by bittersweet

Well, the answer you get for the pro/con question is going to be varied depending on who you ask.

For me...vaccines are not totally benign, but they are shown to be safe and effective for MOST. With that said, like any drug or medical procedure, there will be some people who have adverse reactions to vaccinations or dont achieve the desired effect. Yes, vaccines do contain very small amounts of potentially harmful substances, but so does the produce we eat, the air we breath, any many things we ingest in general.

You cannot argue the fact that vaccines have eradicated or significantly decreased multiple horrible, torturous, and fatal illnesses. Most people now a days havent seen a child suffer and die from polio, small pox, tetanus, etc But everything is a cycle. If everyone stopped vaccinating, these diseases will destroy lives again....and then everyone will want vaccinations once again. I work in a pediatric intensive care unit and we've have a too many cases of babies nearly dieing and having to be supported for weeks on a ventilator and pressors from things like bacertial menningitis and epiglottitis caused by haemophilus influenzae B (and not getting their HIB vaccine). My point is vaccines protect against very real things, but this is forgotten b/c most people and even drs. dont see these diseases any more. But that is only b/c of most people being vaccinated.

With that said, I think you just need to weigh the risks and benefits for your children. I almost died from a paticular vaccine as a baby and so did multiple cousins in my family. So for me, I know this paticular vaccine causes problems for us, so I will not give it to my child.

Most Drs will tell you to get them all of them on time. So if you think you may not want to, you will be on your own to educate yourself. But whatever you decide, I hope your provider will support your choices.

- these are all the reasons I am pro-vaccination!

[~Jess~]

I am very pro-vaccine. However, I am very ANTI-current vaccine schedules. It's too much, too soon. All vaccines contain added ingredients to make the vaccine more effective. Some of these ingredients include aluminum & formaldehyde, as well as many others. When given one-at-a-time, the risk of toxicity is fairly low, but babies are being given 3-4 shots just in 1 visit, a dosage that would be overwhelming to a mature immune system, let alone a teensy baby's immature immune system.

I strongly suggest reading Dr. Robert Sears "Vaccine Book." It lays out all the facts, ingredient lists, stats for each disease, etc. so that you can make your own educated decision without being pressured one way or another. Most vaccine books are made to scare the crap out of you--either for vaxing, or against it--but Dr. Sears book gives you the facts without the scare tactics so that you can make your own decision.

We personally delay vax. I was going to delay them all until she was over a year old, but since I'm working again and she's in childcare, I'm getting her a couple vaxes now and then the rest when she's 3-4 years old. I intend to have her caught up by the time she starts school.

She's getting pneumococcal (sp?) at 6 mos.
Dtap (mostly for the pertussis) at 7 mos (that appt is today, actually!)
pneumococcal 8 mos.
Dtap 9 mos
etc. alternating until she has the full dose of each.

We're skipping HIB, chickenpox, rotovirus, and flu shots altogether. All the others she'll start getting at 3 years of age when her immune system is more mature and her risk of contracting the diseases goes up. I won't give Hep B until she's a tween, I don't expect her to participate in IV drug use or premarital sex before that age. lol.

[~*sierra*~]

Sam -i wonder if a hospital birth with a midwife would require your baby to get all the meds right then? my sis works in paeds and ob as a nurse and says that the midwife births are pretty self contained and the nurses/doc's pretty well leave them alone...i dont know for sure what goes on, just a thought!

And thanks ladies for the info & book reccomendation. I hadn't realized that the schedule part of it was really a big issue. i have a lot of food for thought here - good thing i'm waiting till the end of the year! aww i just luv u ladies!

[soImarriedAnerd]

First I would like to point out its state by state for the laws of whats the required and whats recommended. Also the pushy factor is staff specific....I worked with people on both sides, so I don't think its just the state....it does tend to be a hospital though--but not always. For birthing centers they do tend to be more relaxed about it. For homebirths they don't give vaccines at home...so its up to your pediatrician.
My stance is kind of a combo of the above ones.
I believe SOME vaccines are wonderful---I'm am not anti-vaccines. I believe vaccines that had epidemics that killed millions are a good thing. I think vaccines for things that rarely kill aren't good things (chicken poxs for example). I think if your going to live a live that puts you at risk for certain disease then you should get the vaccine to protect yourself (like a nurse working with Hep B patients), or a baby traveling to locations with active polio. I don't like the age we give them because the immune system is still developing. I didn't/don't take drugs while pregnant because I don't want to mess with little bugs major developements. So I weigh the risks---possible messing with development vs getting the disease (and vaccine are NOT 100%). So even though I will wait to get most vaccines for child till 3-5 yrs old I WILL get them their polio before we go to a polio active country. I don't like the schedule at all. I don't think newborns need a Hep B vaccine for something I didn't need till I worked in a hospital. I don't like giving multiple shots on one day. That just doesn't sit well with me. Example-baby gets- DTaP, Polio, MMR, and HIB on their 4th month visit. Thats 8 different diseases. Now you go home and baby spikes a huge fever and has a sizure and ends up in the hospital. Which drug caused it? You can't know! So then what do you do. You have two options. Give no more and don't take the chance or give one at a time with space in between HOPING AND PRAYING the reaction the second time doesn't permenantly harm them (second reactions are usually stronger then first!). I hate that....I don't like the all or non. I choose to look at each shot and weigh the risks of each on for each child. If I have a healthy child thats different then one that has issues...each kid is different also. Then there is the blanket giving.....example --Hep B is three doses. They came up with that because the general public needed three to pass their titer test (levels of antibodies for the disease). Some people can pass with two, some people-like me-need more (i needed 6 to pass!). So THATS my main reasons. Then yes some children do have reactions. Heck I myself am a reaction to a MMR baby---and I have permanent issues because of it. Its rare but it does happen....as with all drugs. But I think a older more developed immune system is more likely to tolerate it then a baby. Also the shot dose is the same for a 12hr newborn as it is for a 300 lb adult....vaccines are the only med that size doesn't matter. Which bugs me also. And finally...the vaccines we are giving for some things I think is just dumb. I WANT my children to get the chicken poxs.....I don't want my kids to have vaccine for everything. I'm in the belief that natural immunity is better and that it builds a stronger immunity. I will also be THAT mom who doesn't use anti-bacterial stuff, I will let them touch everything and put it in their mouth (on a clean point-not a size/dangerous point), I think kids need to get sick some times.....other wise mother nature will do its thing----and invent a new disease that will wipe us out. Wipe out vaccines (polio/small poxs/etc) I'm FOR, rarely deadly vaccines (rotovirus/chicken poxs/flu) I would rather my kids got on its own.

So for me.....I look at each kid, each vaccine and decide. I don't like all or nothing theory...each vaccine deserves to stand on its own "feet". And weither I get them or not---all diseases moms should know.....most when caught are very treatable, unfortunately people assume if you HAVE the vaccines you couldn't possible have the disease--but it happens... so they wait to long for treatment.

Thats my opinion on my family at least. Oh and I only get the polio booster, but Troy (with kidney issues) has every vaccine offered in the USA but yellow fever.

First I would like to point out its state by state for the laws of whats the required and whats recommended. Also the pushy factor is staff specific....I worked with people on both sides, so I don't think its just the state....it does tend to be a hospital though--but not always. For birthing centers they do tend to be more relaxed about it. For homebirths they don't give vaccines at home...so its up to your pediatrician.
My stance is kind of a combo of the above ones.
I believe SOME vaccines are wonderful---I'm am not anti-vaccines. I believe vaccines that had epidemics that killed millions are a good thing. I think vaccines for things that rarely kill aren't good things (chicken poxs for example). I think if your going to live a live that puts you at risk for certain disease then you should get the vaccine to protect yourself (like a nurse working with Hep B patients), or a baby traveling to locations with active polio. I don't like the age we give them because the immune system is still developing. I didn't/don't take drugs while pregnant because I don't want to mess with little bugs major developements. So I weigh the risks---possible messing with development vs getting the disease (and vaccine are NOT 100%). So even though I will wait to get most vaccines for child till 3-5 yrs old I WILL get them their polio before we go to a polio active country. I don't like the schedule at all. I don't think newborns need a Hep B vaccine for something I didn't need till I worked in a hospital. I don't like giving multiple shots on one day. That just doesn't sit well with me. Example-baby gets- DTaP, Polio, MMR, and HIB on their 4th month visit. Thats 8 different diseases. Now you go home and baby spikes a huge fever and has a sizure and ends up in the hospital. Which drug caused it? You can't know! So then what do you do. You have two options. Give no more and don't take the chance or give one at a time with space in between HOPING AND PRAYING the reaction the second time doesn't permenantly harm them (second reactions are usually stronger then first!). I hate that....I don't like the all or non. I choose to look at each shot and weigh the risks of each on for each child. If I have a healthy child thats different then one that has issues...each kid is different also. Then there is the blanket giving.....example --Hep B is three doses. They came up with that because the general public needed three to pass their titer test (levels of antibodies for the disease). Some people can pass with two, some people-like me-need more (i needed 6 to pass!). So THATS my main reasons. Then yes some children do have reactions. Heck I myself am a reaction to a MMR baby---and I have permanent issues because of it. Its rare but it does happen....as with all drugs. But I think a older more developed immune system is more likely to tolerate it then a baby. Also the shot dose is the same for a 12hr newborn as it is for a 300 lb adult....vaccines are the only med that size doesn't matter. Which bugs me also. And finally...the vaccines we are giving for some things I think is just dumb. I WANT my children to get the chicken poxs.....I don't want my kids to have vaccine for everything. I'm in the belief that natural immunity is better and that it builds a stronger immunity. I will also be THAT mom who doesn't use anti-bacterial stuff, I will let them touch everything and put it in their mouth (on a clean point-not a size/dangerous point), I think kids need to get sick some times.....other wise mother nature will do its thing----and invent a new disease that will wipe us out. Wipe out vaccines (polio/small poxs/etc) I'm FOR, rarely deadly vaccines (rotovirus/chicken poxs/flu) I would rather my kids got on its own.

So for me.....I look at each kid, each vaccine and decide. I don't like all or nothing theory...each vaccine deserves to stand on its own "feet". And weither I get them or not---all diseases moms should know.....most when caught are very treatable, unfortunately people assume if you HAVE the vaccines you couldn't possible have the disease--but it happens... so they wait to long for treatment.

Thats my opinion on my family at least. Oh and I only get the polio booster, but Troy (with kidney issues) has every vaccine offered in the USA but yellow fever.

[*Anna*]

I know for me- when baby comes in a few weeks, we are declining the Hep B and Vit K shot (Will do Vit K if there was trauma to baby's head or bruises where she will need that) I am also declining the eye ointment. We will do the PKU test just prior to gettting discharged. And I'm for vaccines, but at a delayed rate, and a seperation, not more than 1-2 at a time. In case of a reaction as Angela and the others said.

Oh and where I am delivering, they are pretty good about letting DH and I pick what we want after the birth... but my BFF had her baby at a Beaumont hospital, and she was given a hard time at first with declining any of it... she even was told by her nurse and midwife that she could be seen by officials for abuse for not giving vaccines. Crazy. She found all kinds of info on line, and showed it to them, and they eventually got off her back a little bit. So if you believe in something, fight for it... its your child... and depending on the law/hospital standards, do what you feel is best!

[Adriana's Mommy]

You should decided what's best for your baby.. There's pro's and con's to both sides..

I personally choose to have my daughter vaccinated on time and she's still perfectly normal.. There are a few vaccines I will decline, like the one for cervical cancer.. But that's many years down the road.. No need to worry about that now..

Oh, one thing to consider is.. The more people choosing not to vaccinate means there's a big chance all those nasty bugs will come back..

[**Jenn**]

I'm with Jess on this one. I am pro vaccinating just not on their schedule. We had Liam vaccinated on the standard schedule and while he's perfectly fine and never had an adverse effect to any of them it just didn't sit right with me. We were going along with the standard schedule for Lochlann becuase I'm easily intimidated at the doctor and couldn't find my voice. After his 9 month ones though I had the most horrible fear/gut instinct telling me to back off for a while. Now he's never had a problem with the vaccines either it was just something in me telling me to hold off. It was so strong I couldn't ignore it, I was literally in panic mode and tears over this overwhelming feeling. So he won't be getting anymore until he's 3. We have also decided that our next baby will not receive any vaccines until he/she is 3 (except the vitamin K shot if we have another boy because he will be circumcised). It really is something you need to decide for yourself for each of your children and don't be afraid to stand up to the doctors if there is something you don't want. It took me some time but I have finally learned to do this. If Ian and I are not our childrens' advocate no one will be! I've also heard great things about the Dr. Sears vaccine book and am looking to pick that one up soon.

[Alison81]

Working with kids with autism, I see so, so, so many conflicts on vaccines. I know moms who had children that talked, that were developing normally, and then had the MMR vaccine and started losing their skills at a rapid rate, only to be diagnosed with autism within a year. Then I see families who had their first child vaccinated, then they received an autism diagnosis, and chose not to vaccinate the next child, only to have the next child be diagnosed at the exact same time with autism. I worked with a woman who delayed vaccines and her son was diagnosed with autism.

With that said, I did give Elsa all her vaccines minus the flu shot. I didn't want her to get HepB or the vitamin K shot, but I was told I had to. I know there are laws, but I didn't feel like you NEED hepB as a newborn. I got the hepB shot when I started working at a school.

With my next child I plan on delaying vaccines and spacing the shots out. Elsa had a weird reaction to the MMR, and I want to hold off on that. It really scared me. She cried pretty much on and off for a MONTH following the MMR, it was horrible! She was moody, miserable. And the only thing I could contribute it to was the MMR. It started within hours of getting that shot. She also got a rash that took a week to go away. I still have the pictures. But I think the best thing is to do your own research and decide what's right. The doctors here give you a really hard time if you mention delaying vaccines or not wanting something. I got a lecture when I passed on the flu shot, that ended with me saying, yeah, still not getting it and she didn't get it, never has. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. I feel like anytime you want to do something not "standard" they flip out.

[Oriyan]

Alison did you have Elsa in NY? Because HepB in NY is recommended, but you can decline it if you sign a paper that says you'll do it at your "first ped appointment" The only 4 things that HAVE TO be done in NY is Eye ointment, Vit K, hearing & vision, and the rare metabolic testing (newborn screening test). I want in the worst way to decline vit k and eye ointment, but I haven't found anyone on Long Island who has been able to do it... (I asked my OB about it and she said she wasn't sure herself what the rules were because shes not a pediatrician). Although now DH says I can have a homebirth... so we are discussing it.

I too agree with vaccinating, just not the way the CDC says it should be done. I look at the schedule and I am like -- Holy WOW! Its a lot of vaccines in such a short time! We are going to do 1-2 at a time, and starting after the 1st year. We will not be doing rotovirus, chickenpox or the flu at all. I survived all 3 as a kid and am here to tell the tales.

I know a women who has THREE kids with Autism. The first she vaccinated like the CDC said -- went downhill after the MMR. The second, she delayed, went downhill after the first 2 vaccines (i forget which), the third she didn't vaccinate at all, and he they suspect was born with autism. They all have varying degree's of Autism too. The first born is the worst, with the last born only having Asperger's.

When i look at my baby book my mom listed all my reactions to different shots and for MMR it says "BAD REACTION!". Yeah, thats kinda scary to me.

Alison did you have Elsa in NY? Because HepB in NY is recommended, but you can decline it if you sign a paper that says you'll do it at your "first ped appointment" The only 4 things that HAVE TO be done in NY is Eye ointment, Vit K, hearing & vision, and the rare metabolic testing (newborn screening test). I want in the worst way to decline vit k and eye ointment, but I haven't found anyone on Long Island who has been able to do it... (I asked my OB about it and she said she wasn't sure herself what the rules were because shes not a pediatrician). Although now DH says I can have a homebirth... so we are discussing it.

I too agree with vaccinating, just not the way the CDC says it should be done. I look at the schedule and I am like -- Holy WOW! Its a lot of vaccines in such a short time! We are going to do 1-2 at a time, and starting after the 1st year. We will not be doing rotovirus, chickenpox or the flu at all. I survived all 3 as a kid and am here to tell the tales.

I know a women who has THREE kids with Autism. The first she vaccinated like the CDC said -- went downhill after the MMR. The second, she delayed, went downhill after the first 2 vaccines (i forget which), the third she didn't vaccinate at all, and he they suspect was born with autism. They all have varying degree's of Autism too. The first born is the worst, with the last born only having Asperger's.

When i look at my baby book my mom listed all my reactions to different shots and for MMR it says "BAD REACTION!". Yeah, thats kinda scary to me.

[ShannonMVT]

I plan to selectively and delay vax. I think some of the vaccinations are good and very necessary, but like some of the others, I don't agree with the suggested schedule.

And for something like Hib, well, I would LIKE to get that one, but considering it has freaking peanut oil as an ingredient, I probably won't. And we wonder why peanut allergies have risen so much in the past 50 years...hmm...

[greeneyes]

My girls are on a delayed/selective vax schedule and each vaccine is specially ordered so that it does not have thimerisol (mercury) or formeldahyde in it. I also live in a state where it is 'the law' that all newborns receive Vit K, Hep B, and eye ointment as part of their newborn care; however, as the parent/legal guardian I still retain the right to declne any procedure deemed unnecessary or against my moral or ethical views. I was threatened and bullied with everything under the sun (see birth story in Private Matters) but I held absolutely firm and there was nothing the hospital staff could do about it. They did file a report on me with Child Protective Services, but it was just a paperwork formaility and CPS informed me that they do not investigate vaccination refusal reports.

I'm not advocating one choice over another because that is something only you can make for your child(ren), but no matter what you choose, research, research, research.

[ScottishBrit]

Im pretty much doing everything that Jess said. I have that book By Dr. Sears and that actually freaked me out more cause now I KNOW what the Ingredients are....I REALLY dont think they NEED to add some stuff that they do In the Ingredient's. And Im not talking about the Chemical's. Cambria hasn't had anything yet but I think Im going to start Selectivly giving her some when she turns 1. I am not giving her the MMR Until she's at least 3. I have not made up my mind on the Dtap yet though...