[ShannonMVT]

I'm getting to the end of my rope sleep-wise. I kept thinking it was going to get better on its own because there have been times in the past when Matthew would sleep really well and then not and back and forth. But it's been ages since he's slept through the night.

If he was just waking once or twice a night to nurse, I could handle that. But last night he was up 5 times. One time he put himself to sleep playing with his stuffed bunny, but woke up again 20 minutes later.

He only goes to sleep nursing (except for rare cases of falling asleep after playing his crib, but he can go 45 minutes of playing in there by himself with no toys, easy, if he doesn't feel like sleeping). He has always been this way, despite me trying different ways of soothing him to sleep. It puts me in a bind because no one else can get him to sleep. He'll just cry and eventually scream and get horribly upset.

I feel like he isn't eating as much solids as some 9 month olds because we started later, but he does get enough that I think eating once a night might be reasonable, but no more than that. But I don't know if I do some kind of sleep training that is going to send mixed messages if I let him nurse some of the time and other times not.

I tried co-sleeping again recently wondering if it was separation anxiety but it still doesn't work for us. The cuddling only lasts a short while before he's wiggling around the bed in his sleep and he was still waking up a ton. Plus I wasn't getting good sleep because of him moving around, snoring, etc.

I just feel very wishy washy about what I want to do. I do know I'm not getting enough sleep. I have to nap when he naps in the morning which means I can't get stuff done while he's asleep. When he's awake I struggle with needing to get things done and also wanting to play with him.

I don't feel like he is getting enough rest either. He was rubbing his eyes and acting out of it only 30 minutes after he woke up this morning. (Not that he would have gone down for a nap if I tried.) He probably needs some unbroken hours of sleep as well.

But I keep going back and forth. I read the AP stuff and think yes, I should respond to his cries because if he is crying then he needs me. I worry that maybe his tummy hurts or his teeth hurts or whatever and maybe I just don't know? (He doesn't seem to have different cries other than his whiny cry, which I ignore at nighttime. The rest are all the same, just crying that will go to screaming if I don't respond.) I want to comfort him and it kills me to hear him cry, but I'm torn because I'm so tired. I'm not a high energy person.

Then I read the CIO stuff (not all CIO but controlled crying and pickup/putdown and whatever) and think well maybe it is going to have to be tough love for him to learn to self soothe? I read stories of babies who were waking up so many times and after sleep training they are sleeping 12-13 hours straight. I think maybe I am just delaying the inevitable by not doing any sleep training because I don't see how he is ever going to learn how to fall asleep any way other than nursing OR learn how to calm himself and go back to sleep when he wakes up.

But then we go back to me worrying that he is going to distance himself from me because if I let him cry and won't let him nurse at night he is going to feel like I abandoned him. Well not abadoned but you know what I mean.

What do you think? I know this is super long, thanks if you've read this far.

I'm not even sure which method would work. We've tried soothing him in other ways and it doesn't work, he just keeps crying. But I don't think I have the heart to just let him cry by himself.

[fromGirltoMommy]

Oh sweetie its hard. I know Kennedi's like 3 months younger than Matthew but Kennedi is getting up the same amount. Last night was the first time in over a month that she only got up 2 times I used to have a GREATTTT sleeper who slept 10 hours straight..not anymore. Its so hard. My mom keeps telling me Im going to have to motify a CIO method that I agree with, but I cant. Its so hard. And I think like you, they are young and crying is their only way to let us know what something is wrong. I dont want to ruin her trust that she has in me to be there for her when she needs me.

Kennedi and Matthew are so much alike its not even funny. Now she will only nurse back to sleep. She too rubs her eyes and is very fussy even an hour after she gets up but she too will not sleep. And even the slightest noise in the house now and shes RIGHT up!

So I really have no advice cuz Im so back and forth on it all too Hopefully in a week itll all be magically work out? We can dream right?

[ANGWife]

Originally Posted by ShannonMVT

Then I read the CIO stuff (not all CIO but controlled crying and pickup/putdown and whatever) and think well maybe it is going to have to be tough love for him to learn to self soothe? I read stories of babies who were waking up so many times and after sleep training they are sleeping 12-13 hours straight. I think maybe I am just delaying the inevitable by not doing any sleep training because I don't see how he is ever going to learn how to fall asleep any way other than nursing OR learn how to calm himself and go back to sleep when he wakes up.

But then we go back to me worrying that he is going to distance himself from me because if I let him cry and won't let him nurse at night he is going to feel like I abandoned him. Well not abadoned but you know what I mean.

I'm not even sure which method would work. We've tried soothing him in other ways and it doesn't work, he just keeps crying. But I don't think I have the heart to just let him cry by himself.

There are nights that Henry will wake a few times. But 5 out of 7 nights a week he will sleep at least 9 hours. The PU PD works for us! It's VERY difficult to use sometimes and it kills me that he cries. But I've come to realize that it's okay when he cries when I'm there with my hand on him. He knows I haven't gone away forever but he can't get his way. And another reason I suggest the method is because DH can help as well. We always put Henry down when he's drowsy not sleeping. So DH can take the first "shift" and I can sleep a few hours. If you decide you want to try this method, I'd be happy to give you more tips and tell you how we do things.

Of course it may not be the right method for Matthew. What I've learned the most is that you have to be whole hearted about what you do. He will sense when you aren't in control and too emotional.

[~*Bethy*~]

I do honestly think that a modified CIO session is in order. He knows your going to run to him every time. I understand you worrying about his well being when he cries, but hun, babies cry sometimes just for the hellofit. They know its how they get your attention. He is old enough now to self soothe. I, too, still AP my daughter, if she whines, we get up (well really we do it for both) But there is a difference between whining, and waking up because mommy's left the room - and in your case, I think hes whining sneaky little babies

[**Jenn**]

I know how exhausting and frustrating this all is for you Shannon. My boys were both the same way. I thought there would never be a time that they wouldn't need to nurse to sleep. I did night wean Liam at 10 months and honestly that was what worked for him. We did the pick up put down thing and within a week or so he was night weaned and sleeping through the night (or mostly anyway, I wouldn't let him nurse before 5am). Liam wasn't the greatest cosleeper at that age though and we all got less sleep when he was in bed with us all night. With Lochy though it never would have worked and I did try at different times after he turned a year. He was one of those kids that had to do it on his own time. He weaned himself from needing to nurse to fall asleep at around 17 months and weaned himself from night nursing around 18 months or so. He was a great cosleeper though and we still got lots of good rest so it wasn't as big a deal for me. Unfortunately this is a trial and error kind of thing. There are gentle ways of sleep training and trust me getting him to sleep through the night or night weaning him will not make him any less close to you. I have just as strong a bond with Liam as I do with Lochy. Ask over at the AP board for some gentle sleep training methods and try them out. Give it a good go but if they don't work now you can always try again another time. Even though it may not seem like it now he will go to sleep on his own and he will sleep through the night. You're doing such a great job!

[Resi]

No real advice here because I don't think any type od training would have worked for Oliver. It seems like he will be nursing to sleep until he finds a wife!

I do think it's better to try now rather than later. The older they get the harder sleep training gets.

I can totally understand how you are torn.

You know I was in the same place, and I know what worked for me may not work for you, however I thought I'd share again with you. We used a mixture of PU/PD (Pick Up/Put Down) and CC (Controled Crying).

We only had to do this for 2-3 nights and it just clicked with her.... We would put her to bed and leave the room, she cried... I went in after 1 min of crying, pick her up until she was calm, lay her down... leave the room for 2 mins of crying (only go back in if baby is crying), PU/PD, leave for 3 mins, PU/PD, leave for 4 mins, PU/PD, leave for 5 mins, and I would return every 5 mins thereafter. I didn't feel comfortable letting her cry for more than 5mins.

However, if he would calm down laying in the cot, with you rubbing his back, shhhh'ing, try everything you can not to pick him up.

I too was confused about nursing for one waking but not the others. What I did was Kirsty's bedtime was arund 7/8pm, so anytime after midnight, I would nurse once then try resettling the times before midnight or after the nursing session. It is hard work (emotionally) but if you feel the need to do something, then I don't blame you. Getting up once or twice is one thing, but repeatedly is so hard on you.

I waslucky in that when we did sleep training, Kirsty had accepted a dummy (paci) which helped us a lot with the self-soothing. If you search "sleep training" on my snowbabysworld.com blog, you will find all the posts i made about what we did. You don't have to do what one person did, but you can adapt or pick bits from lots of people's sleep training that may fit what you feel comfortable doing.

[soImarriedAnerd]

We still wake up every 3 hrs or less during milestones here also. So I don't really have much advice....I would go with your gut! Not all sleep training is CIO. I guess *I* see CIO as laying them down and when they cry not going in and doing anything. But there are some sleep training that does have them cry but you go right away still to let them know you care that they are crying and lay a hand on them and tell them your there (its the touch that is the big thing). Maybe do something like that as an in between.
I did see something in your OP that may be an issue-----does HE snore?! Babies RARELY are snorers....he may have a sinus/throat issue that when laying down could be causing a restricted air passage and COULD be a reason he isn't sleeping! Also I know he has a bad tummy---if the acid was getting up in his throat bad enough the swelling from the irritation could be causing the throat/snore issue-which again would be a reason he isn't sleeping....that could be hurting him For some reason I think once you guys get that troubled tummy better the sleep will follow suit. And nursing would "soothe" (like pepto) if his throat was on "fire" so that again maybe the reason in your case why he is a nighttime nurser. Would daddy with a bottle work every so often so you can get a night or two of good sleep?

the girls in my PR who are more AP style all rave about the No Cry Sleep Solution book Its the more No CIO sleep training that I was talking about.

[~*sierra*~]

hm maybe get his snoring checked out.
i have no advice about the sleeping thing (*hugs*), but my sister had horrible snoring and sleep apnea due to crouzon's syndrome. the lack of deep sleep during those mega growing years (my mom adopted her at age 6, so she had no medical care before then) caused major growth delays. she was the size of a 3 yr old at 6 yrs.

[Chelnae6]

I'm sorry you're going thru this.

I have no advice but tell you what worked for us with Miki (we had her either a week out of every month or just about every weekend when she was younger). she was a pretty good sleeper though. She'd wake up in the middle of the night and cry and some night I would pick her up and hold her (tightly) until she fell back to sleep and then put her in her crib. I rarely put her in the bed wit us b/c she's a WILD sleeper.

Her crib was on my side of the bed and BF sleeps like he's in a comasometimes so I primarily tended to her. Most nights I woke up when she cried and just rubbed her on her back until she fell back asleep (a few minutes) to let her know that she wasnt alone.

And then there were the nights (not many) where she'd cry, I'd wake up, look at her to make sure she was okay and tell her "You're okay, go back to sleep" (nights where I was extremely exhausted). She'd cry or fuss momentarily but b/c she knew that we were in the room with her (it was a 1 br apt at the time) and that I we werent really going to get up so she just eventually laid back down and fell asleep.


She was on a schedule though. And eventually we realized that a huge part of her sleep discomfort was from the crib mattress. Our mattress was comfy and she slept all night. so i'd try to put padding under her sheets (folded blankets) to get her to sleep for longer and longer periods. It worked.

Everytime she woke up, I changed her diaper before doing any of those methods.

Idk how much I helped, if any but I hope that you find a solution soon and remove them bags from under your eyes.

I'd like to comment on the snoring thing... it could very well be a symptom of the reflux as the PPs state, but it also could just be "normal" for Matthew... Kirsty snores every naptime & nighttime.

[ShannonMVT]

Angela - he doesn't normally snore (I don't think) just once in awhile. He gets a little congested now and then. He does have a bad tummy but he went on his reflux meds again and he's been back on them for over 3 weeks so it should be controlling the acid. I can usually hear it when he refluxes (doesn't usually spit up now just hear him kinda burp up in his throat) and I wasn't hearing him do that when he'd wake up. He doesn't seem fussy about his reflux during the day. So I don't *think* that is the problem but of course I do second guess myself and wonder if tummy issues are part of the problem. I'll read more on No Cry Sleep Solution but I think the kicker is going to be getting him to soothe without having nursing at all. I've reduced the amount of time he spends on there but can't get him to not need it to fall back asleep.

Fi - Thanks for detailing what you did. I'll go back and read your blog posts. Unfortunately, I really don't think he is going to calm unless we pick him up. I've very rarely been able to calm him by shushing/patting/back rubbing and the like. Even picking him I don't know if that's going to calm him and I'm not sure what to do when it doesn't. He's going to get ticked that he is not being nursed. If we go the pick up/put down route I'm going to have to get Dh to help, maybe start it on a weekend. It really sucks that now his crib mattress is lowered all the way down.

Jenn - Did you still nurse to sleep for naps even after Liam was night weaned? Why didn't it work with Lochy? Did he just keep crying till you gave in and nursed?

Morgan - Yes, I'd like to hear more about what you do and have done with Henry! When he does wake up, do you do the pick up put down still?

Thanks everyone for thoughts and advice, keep it coming! I'm going to think about it and read up some more and figure out what we want to try. I've already told Dh that whatever we go with we need to be committed to following through. So since I'm still kind of wishy washy on the whole thing I'll suffer through a little more till I'm for sure on which way to go.

Kirsty was a baby who got very upset, very quickly and all that worked was picking her up, sometimes that wasn't enough and I had to nurse as well. I guess it depends how strong you are. The BW highly recommends that daddy does the first few nights - he doesn't have boobies therefore can't nurse. I would strongly recommend you ask him to help, even if he just waits outside the room and cuddles you, you'll need the emotional support.

Originally Posted by ANGWife

He will sense when you aren't in control and too emotional.

This is absolutely true!!

I came to a point of realising that picking Kirsty up resulted in her chirping and making playful sounds like "YEY it worked again, mummy picked me up" then I'd lay her down and she would cry soooo hard until I picked her up again... chirpy chirpy..... It helped me reliase it had become a cause/effect thing for her - she cried/i picked up... she knew if she cried, I would pick her up. So that was when I moved to soothing in the cot - which was not easy to begin with, I admit!

I guess you have to find what you feel ok using. I researched a lot of things, including CIO. I never did CIO but I read up about it to see what it involved. It's about adapting things to suit you.

[*krista*]

I have no advice obviously, but I hope you can find a solution real soon. I know this must be really stressful and difficult for you.

[misfitinmn]

I had to do a version of CIO with Ben when he was around 9 months old. It was awful, and I hated every minute of it, and I spent most of the time up at the same time as him crying too, but I absolutely COULD NOT at that point in my life, continue to get up soooo many times a night (and he would literally stay up for HOURS at a time, he still sometimes does this, but usually he just talks/plays in his crib). My grandpa was very sick, and then passed away, I was working, and I just had NOTHING left to give. So, we started by going in to him in intervals. That only served to make him even more angry, so ... well, this is going to make me sound like a really awful parent, but I would go in once and tell him I loved him and that it was time to sleep, I would hug and kiss him and then I would go. It was seriously awful to listen to him cry, but after probably 2 nights of this, he really has been a wonderful sleeper. He understands when it's time for bed/nap, and he RARELY cries in his crib anymore. He actually gets excited for bedtime now!

Doing this never affected anything with our relationship - he never pulled away from me, our nursing relationship didn't suffer (he self-weaned at 14 months, but I know it wasn't related to this at all). He's a really, incredibly happy kid and he sleeps pretty consistently for about 12-13 hours at night, plus a 2-3 hour nap during the day. Honestly, I can't remember much harder than "training" him, but I think it helped him get the rest he needs, and it helped me get some rest and my sanity back!

Good luck, I am sure there is no easy solution, it's just in knowing what is best for your family!

[**jessie**]

All the ladies have already given great advice. I tend to agree that it sounds like some sleep training is in order. I believe the longer you wait, the more difficult it will be. And if he is waking up tired already, then you know there is a problem. I began very gentle sleep training with my LO at a very early age. While he is not as old as Matthew, we have established a great routine and Jaxon is a much more contented baby as a result.

It doesn't really matter what you do and it doesn't have to be a certain method, but you need to make a plan and stick with it 100% of the time. Any sort of variation and you will start again from ground zero. Consistency is the key.

Do you have a stringent bedtime routine? We start our routine at exactly 7pm every night. At 8 pm on the dot, he is put into his crib. It doesn't matter if he is already sleeping, wide awake, or fussing. He goes to bed at 8, no negotiations, lol. We do allow him to fuss for short amounts of time. I try to not pick him up once he is in his crib. Instead I might place my hand on his back or hold his hand. If I do need to pick him up, I do so in the dark and do not talk to him or rock him. No matter what, we never bring him out of his room or turn on the light after bedtime. He learned really quickly. After only a week, he either goes to sleep right away on his own or fusses a bit for a max of 5-10 minutes... but no major crying meltdowns anymore.

[soImarriedAnerd]

How about some rescue remedy for kids or maybe some lavender essential oil in a foot or body massage....both those we have been using for naps during the day for london. We are trying other things also. Right now he only falls asleep nursing or ON a person's chest (so in the carrier or on top of someone).

Hey Shannon. Bacon compels me to respond here.

Everyone has good advice. I agree that every baby is different. I can tell you what we do since it may help (although you may have already tried these things). We usually don't have a problem putting Jack to bed.

When he cries or fusses we try these things:
- we give him up to 30 seconds to cry. If it is longer then that, he won't stop. If after 30 seconds he is still crying I go in and pick him up and rock him for a few minutes and then put him down again.

- if I put him down and he is just fussy, I pull his blanket on him and tuck him in tight (lately he kicks it off as soon as I put it on if he is grumpy, so it takes a few times or putting it back on him and tucking it). Then I put on his soother with the motion and lights on only (no sound ay bedtime). This really distracts him and then I just leave his room. If he starts to cry, he usually gets distracted again by the soother.

- If he is still fussy, I pat his bum (hard enough for him to feel through the diaper) while holding the palm of my other hand under his cheek. I started doing this when he was tiny and it usually chills him out right away.

- And my secret weapon is: I make him laugh. Crying just gives you a headache (it gives me a headache), and makes it harder for them to fall asleep, I think. So I play peek-a-boo. He pulls the blanket over his head and pulls it off himself, or I duck next to his crib and pop up again to try and make him jump, hehe. This is most effective if he is just fussy and slightly crying, not if he has been wailing for a bit (well you know, under my 30 second rule). If he is super upset, I pick him up and soothe first. I figure it is much easier to fall asleep if you are in a good mood, and laughing is a great way to be in a good mood. So far this seems to work very well for us. And if playing starts to make him fussy, I put the soother on, pull his blanket up and pat his bum. I may have to go in several times in that first hour of putting him down some nights, but usually he goes to sleep fine by himself. We have reached the point now where I just put him down and leave. For some reason if I linger for kisses, hugs and I love you, he starts to cry. So I get those in before I take him to his bedroom.


I dunno if any of that will help, but I thought I would tell you anyways. A lot of our routines came from necessity. We stopped nursing to sleep for naps because he would poop 10 minutes after eating. So I nurse him and let him play after that for a bit before putting him down, in case he goes pooptastic on me. It was easier to go from not nursing naps to not nursing before bed. And you know I take classes, so there was no other option but for him to be able to fall asleep on his own (b/c I have a couple night classes). He has had his really bad sleep periods though, like most babies. Occasionally, I give in and pull him out of bed to play for a bit (has happened maybe 3 times). Maybe he is just an easy sleeper. Either way, you could try making him laugh when he gets grumpy - it works well for us. I have no CIO advice. My limit is 30 seconds, lol. I can't take it after that. I have read some real miraculous stories though, so God be with you if you go that route. It may be rough for a few days or a week, but eventually, he will learn to sleep on his own one way or the other.

edited to add:
You know I shouldn't have written what I did. That is just asking for sleep problems. Isn't that how it goes? I take it back! He sleeps like poo! I cannot wait until he sleeps through the night, from like 6pm to 10am! Babies do the darndest things! Nothing to see here.

[Frozendesire]

I didn't want to not respond, but I know you have gotten lots of great advice!

Dustin still nurses to sleep and he's slowly but surely learning to sleep on his own. Now he wakes up once or twice for a quick cuddle and/or nurse and he's back to sleep. I did the wait it out thing haha, hoping he'd just outgrow it. I'm happy to wait for him to be done nursing to sleep, since it takes just a few mins and works every time haha.

I hope you find something that works for you two. It is such a hard thing, to find something you are both comfortable with and get results.

Good luck and keep us updated along the way!