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  #2  
August 3rd, 2005, 01:27 PM
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I've started this thread because there seems to be an awful lost of confusion in following the posted debating guidelines. This thread is my effort to keep to those guidelines. If you're reading this and find that it doesn't make any sense to you, try back tracking here.


I apologize if it seemed I wasn't following proper ettiquette of debate. I was simply offended by how many people were told point blankly that they are going to hell. That to me seems to be violating some rules of ettiquette.


Those of us that have brought up our religious beliefs in any thread are simply stating why we have that particular opinion. We're only giving some insight to others as to why we think the way that we do. We do this only AFTER we state what our opinion was on the original question. We didn't just show up, pull scripture out of the Bible, and ramble on about we believed it meant to us.

I also stated earlier in the thread how I feel about premarital sex. I was responding to those that were using the Bible to justify why they feel it's wrong. To me, there are lots of other parts of the Bible that are ignored out of convenience. I was simply bringing up those passages.

Christians are the last to take God's word out of context. We're taught to do the very opposite. Again, I encourage you to learn more about a religion (i.e. Christianity) before you begin to make assumptions..

My uncle is a pastor. I think he's a pretty good one. Before he became a preacher, I was raised going to a Pentecostal church, and I've seen time and time again scripture used as a way to hate, intimidate, or bully certain groups. I'm basing my beliefs on years of attending church and reading the Bible, so you are the one making assumptions.

After taking the time to lookup the scripture that you presented, I am somewhat confused. Deuteronomy 13:7 says, "gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),". Definitely not what you came up with..

That's my mistake. It's 14.7. You can simply google it to find it. I was hasty in my original post.

I am unclear of what Deuteronomy 22:11 means and I will need to study it more.

You can find a lot of references to war and violence in the Old Testament. There is a surprising amount of stuff about smiting one's enemy in Psalms. I don't know how people justify it, and then talk about the Bible as the inspired word of God. I think the Bible is a product of the times and people who wrote it.

One of the members here on the JM Forums presents it in her signature: "If you don't believe in God, you'd better be right don't ya think?" The same applies here - you believe the God won't send someone to H*ll for lying, stealing, or having premarital sex...I believe that He will if that someone is unrepentant of those sins. If you've committed these sins and are not repentant, for your soul's sake, I hope you're right.

I don't believe faith is really faith if it is just a result of "covering your butt". Even with the fear that I might be wrong, I can't concoct faith out of thin air. I simply can't wrap my mind around the idea of a cruel God. I could pretend that I do just to hope that I'll avoid punishment, but I wouldn't be fooling anyone, least of all God.


You're absolutely right, we're not all brought up in Christian homes and given the same opportunity to know Christ. That's why it is my duty, as a Christian, to reach out to those less fortunate; this is what the Christian ministry is all about. I am very blessed to have been raised in a Christian home. And I need to use that gift. People are not born with a better chance of going to Heaven. We are all born sinners - those of us that go to Heaven accept the Sacrifice that paid for our sins. It's not difficult to go to H*ll; you need only be born. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23 The entire book of Romans is a great start to read up on your ticket to Heaven.

I understand the concept of sharing the good news. But the reality is--it's not possible to reach the millions out there that are from different cultures. Or what about all of the people who lived before Christ? It just seems like a very arbitrary and flawed system.

I hope that this makes the beliefs that I and others have shared a bit more clear to you. And if you still have questions or are unclear about something pertaining to the Christian religion, don't hesitate to ask me or any of my sisters in Christ here on the JM Forums. You are more than welcome to PM me, but if you want lots of feedback on a question of the spiritual nature - try posting that question over here.


Your beliefs are crystal clear as I have grown up in a community that believes similarly. I, however, have never been able to buy into all of it. Even the threat of hell doesn't make me magically accept all of it. I'm a very logical and rational person, and I have a hard time seeing myself ever believing the Bible as infallible fact--you just can't convince me the Earth is a few thousand years old, or that bringing a bunch of animals onto an ark really happened. I view the Bible more symbolically, and I accept the parts that appeal to me -- treat others as you would like to be treated. Just the fact that so many Christians are so gung-ho about the war in Iraq freaks me out a little. What happened to Christ's ideals of peace? But that's opening up a whole new can of worms, isn't it?

Thank you for your response.
  #4  
August 3rd, 2005, 02:55 PM
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I dont think we're allowed to debate here.. But I just want anyone who doesn't know Jesus reads this, I want you to know that You can pm me and ask me anything and I'll try to answer you and try to tell you the way to know Jesus.

All I ask is if your lost, find God. If Jesus is knocking at the door dont turn him away.

Theres going to be 'bad' churches, and false prophets- but that doesn't mean all churches are bad. If you go to a church that you don't like try another one. Don't give up on God. He hasn't given up on us.
  #5  
August 3rd, 2005, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DynamiteLotus@Aug 3 2005, 04:25 PM
Sorry - I don't intend to be so sarcastic about that, but it just boggles my mind when someone feels that they can pick and choose out of the bible what they want to believe.* <div align="right"><{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[/quote]

So you still sacrifice birds after your period ends? How does your local humane society feel about that?

And I assume that you think stoning a woman to death for adultery is a good idea. And how are those slaves that god says it's okay to have running around the house doing? Don't eat seafood do you? That's a big no-no.

Non-believers certainly don't have a corner on the pick-what-you-want-and-leave-the-rest-out market.

Editted: phrasing
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  #6  
August 3rd, 2005, 03:10 PM
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I just need to say this. They were bad people in the bible too. Not everyone done God's will. Also there were different laws back then.

No I won't kill an animal. Or stone anyone to death for comitting adultery, God will deal with you, not me.

God has dealed with me many ways, even after I became a christian. I dont have a great life. I have had 2 m/c's, I cant find a job, my sister died and left us heartbroken and left 2 babies behind. My life isnt great, but I have a better home when I die. It just gives me another reason to go 'home'.

I believe that I had 2 m/c's to become a stronger a christian, and do more works for God. If I want God to bless me with a baby I need to do more for him.

Ive had a hard life, and only God knows how hard my life is. I could turn my back on God, and run to the devil. But what good would that do? Make God more upset at me, and cause me to go to hell, and cause more problems.

God is the answer. God is the only one who can help you and comfort you.

We all have battles, and struggles, but God is there with his arms opened and wanting us to come to him.
  #9  
August 4th, 2005, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DynamiteLotus@Aug 3 2005, 03:25 PM
So, you don't believe that Noah brought two of every animal onto the ark - perhaps it's easier to believe in the Big Bang Theory...or evolution.* Yeah, that's seems much easier to believe, that we all evolved from a single celled organism that happen to beach itself.*

<div align="right"><{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[/quote]

Just some honest questions:

After Cain killed Abel, who was around for Cain to um, procreate with?


And let's examine Noah's ark....

According to Thomas Wolosz in How Many Species are There? (Center for Earth & Environmental Sciences, SUNY at Plattsburgh, 1988), "The most commonly quoted estimate is somewhere between 30 and 50 million based on Erwin's (1988,1997) study of tropical insects."

How big does an ark have to be to hold this many species? Thirty million square feet (one foot for each species using the lower estimate) equals out to about 5600 square miles. Of course, you'd have to double that since the animals came in two-by-two (or was it sevens?) That's about 11,200 square miles. For comparison, the country of Jamaica has only 10,300 square miles. Maryland has about 12,207 square miles. That's a pretty big ark.

I've seen estimates that the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center took out 30 million square feet of office space. Maybe the ark was just really tall?

And we're not even going into space for food for millions of animals (and some animals eat only other animals) as well as personal living quarters for Noah's family. And let's not forget all of the animal waste that would result from housing all of these critters. Have you ever seen elephant waste? There would be literally tons of it by the end of 40 days. How did Noah and his family find time to feed and clean up after millions of animals?

Any boatbuilder will know that excessive weight will sink a ship. Just how heavy must all of this be?

And what about all of the different plant species? Wouldn't they have died in a 40-day flood? If I overwater my houseplants, they die.

And termites are a species. I'd hate to see the results of letting them on a wooden ship.

Some animals need more than just two to reproduce. Bees, for example, need a colony.

And have you ever tried to tell if a bird is male or female? Lots of animals aren't obviously one gender or another. How could Noah tell?

None of this gets into the logistics of finding the animals, who probably didn't all conveniently live in Noah's town as well as disembarking them peacefully. And stress, lack of nutrition, lack of ventilation, etc. kills a lot of animals. My dog gets pretty stressed out in my Honda. I can imagine how she'd be in an ark.

Now you see why I can't believe this stuff. I think the Bible has a lot of instructive stories that we can learn from. But I can't take it literally.
  #11  
August 4th, 2005, 08:11 AM
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And this is where things fall apart...god gave me a brain to understand none of this is possible, and then expects me to just...believe it anyway? What a great cosmic joke.
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  #13  
August 4th, 2005, 09:30 AM
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We are locking this thread. We are in the process of adding a new board for Religious Debate. For now if you would like to debate religion please post this on the Heated Debates forum. We should be adding a new subforum for Religious Debate very soon.

We are also considering adding new Spirituality forums for our members that are not Christian and do not want to post on a general spiritual board. I will be posting a new post on the Feedback board about this and would like everyones input.
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