Log In Sign Up

Flue vaccine trial kills 21 people (x posted)


Forum: Attachment Parenting

Notices

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to boards@justmommies.com.

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Attachment Parenting LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #1  
July 19th, 2009, 08:15 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 394
I posted this in the news forum, my playroom, and the non-vax board as well. I just think it's one of those things people should read. It's not about vaxxing or not, its more about the ethics of people who treat homeless people like lab rats.

Three Polish doctors and six nurses are facing criminal prosecution after a number of homeless people died following medical trials for a vaccine to the H5N1 bird-flu virus.

Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland - Telegraph
Reply With Quote
  #2  
July 19th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,003
Not to be contrary, but I think the title of this post is misleading. The reason those people died is because those doctors and nurses performed unethically. IMO saying that the vaccine is what killed those people is rather like those articles on cosleeping that blame cosleeping when mom was drunk and on drugs. This is not a "flu vaccine trial" - these are doctors who were acting on their own in a way that no ethical doctor in ANY country would act.

This is not meant to debate vaccines etc but I think if we are going to be outraged by articles that paint AP practices with a broad and bad brush when they are really about someone who did not follow a beneficial practice in a safe manner, I think we should not do the same thing ourselves even if it's about something you don't agree with. That's the excuse that people use to label cosleeping as dangerous.
__________________



Last edited by lisa74; July 19th, 2009 at 09:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
July 19th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 394
i didnt say the flu shot killed them, the trial did (the trial involved that shot, those meds, those doctors, and those people - so yes its accurate to say that trial killed them), but I've noted the pattern of people liking to be contrary here. forgot I said anything. I was posting about the ethics of people practicing in the medical field. I said that from the beginning.

It would be accurate to say a DRUNK mother cosleeping resulted in the death of a baby, the same as it is accurate to say a particular trial involving particular people caused death. it would be inaccurate to say flu vaccine kills or that cosleeping kills. i didnt say either.

Last edited by ipaintwithwords; July 19th, 2009 at 09:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
July 19th, 2009, 10:02 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,003
Please, search on all of my posts and find a single contrary thing I've said. I just think the title is misleading. It was the sick individuals who did the killing, not an ethical properly performed vaccine trial. We don't like it when uniformed sensational article titles make things that we do seem harmful to our kids when we do them in the proper and safe way and all I'm saying is that maybe we should practice what we preach and not do the same thing. It's possible to talk about the facts of things without portraying extreme and criminal behavior as the norm.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #5  
July 19th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hmm. I wonder why the medical staff is being held responsible; did they even know they were giving the wrong product? This wouldn't be the first case of a bird-flu contaminated vaccine, so why are they being held responsible? What about the manufacturer, or whomever orchestrated the experiment?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
July 19th, 2009, 10:24 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,003
quote from the article:

The suspects said that the all those involved knew that the trial involved an anti-H5N1 drug and willingly participated.

Sounds like the medical staff knew what they were doing and argued that the homeless people (who, if they are anything like the homeless people here, are of questionable mental health) knew what they were getting into as well... for a few bucks, as they were paid under $10 to participate in this "trial." And that Poland's health care system has a history of exploiting people - in 2002 ambulance medics took kick backs from funeral homes to kill their patients rather than save them. It's horrifying but it's not about normal vaccine trials.

And I'm done and off to read about gentle discipline and parenting with love instead of this stuff .
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #7  
July 19th, 2009, 10:45 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by воин матери View Post
Hmm. I wonder why the medical staff is being held responsible; did they even know they were giving the wrong product? This wouldn't be the first case of a bird-flu contaminated vaccine, so why are they being held responsible? What about the manufacturer, or whomever orchestrated the experiment?
I wonder too.

My problem is with the ethics of it though, and I thought it was an important thing to share. I'm sorry if others didn't agree. I worry, and maybe I'm wrong, that the homeless people tat participated didn't really understand what they were agreeing too.

I'm NOT saying the vaccine killed the people. I am saying the process of this trial killed them. A surely well intentioned but not well planned trial, that targeted homeless people.

I know for some people these things don't relate to parenting. I guess ethics are really important to me and therefor relevant to my parenting because there are the kinds of things I want my children to understand. And it's just one of those things that I think people should hear about. Just like I think people should hear that co-sleeping when drunk is a bad idea. It doesn't mean that cosleeping the culprit, nor does it mean the vaccine is the culprit. Even if I included my opinion on vaccines, its not the vaccines themselves I blame anyway. just like you can't blame cosleeping. Its the way people do things. The way this was done was wrong. That's all I was saying.

sorry if I misunderstood you lisa, when you said "not to be contrary, but" I'm sorry if for some reason you felt you had to participate in this and it prevented you from participating in othe threads on the board. There are a ton of GD and parenting with love stuff posted here, but the vaccines threads obviously interested you - as those were the first ones you replied to, so you can't be all to upset to see there here ... just a pattern im noticing is all - people not "happy" about certain threads - but those are the only threads they reply to. No one has to reply to this if they don't want to, just please know it's an ethical issue for me, as I stated in my first post. It's something some parents want to know. I heard about it through my AP email loop, we all love and care about our children, some vaccinate and some don't, but all the AP mamas I know are really moral people who like to know about this kind of thing, which is why I shared.


kind of like posting about things that get recalled...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
July 19th, 2009, 03:52 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
Guest
Posts: n/a
The subject of vaccines is a very touchy even when no one means any harm. I go out of my way NOT to discuss it here because of it. You're more than welcome to repost your comments on the choosing not to vaccinate board.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
July 19th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 394
i see that, thanks... i just thought it could be seen for the ethical side of the problem. the woman who emailed it to me initially vaccinates on schedule! I guess I just didn't realize some people would get that sensitive about it... maybe I'm just used to more laid back people lol
Reply With Quote
  #10  
July 20th, 2009, 07:42 AM
Alissa&Isabelle'sMommy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 12,602
Send a message via AIM to Alissa&Isabelle'sMommy Send a message via MSN to Alissa&Isabelle'sMommy Send a message via Yahoo to Alissa&Isabelle'sMommy
Oh my gosh! That's terrible. TFS.
__________________
MY BLOG MySpaceFacebook Wife to Jesse since 2/14/2004. Mommy to Alissa Grace 3/13/2006 and Isabelle Rose 12/10/2008.



Reply With Quote
  #11  
July 23rd, 2009, 10:30 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipaintwithwords View Post
I'm NOT saying the vaccine killed the people. I am saying the process of this trial killed them. A surely well intentioned but not well planned trial, that targeted homeless people.
Of course they didn't. Did you read the entire article? There is a SERIOUS problem with medical ethics in Poland where these "trials" (and I use that term sarcastically - more like illegal experimentation on people) were performed. There are also the Polish equivalent of EMTs who basically let the people they are supposed to be saving DIE (or hasten their death) in order to get kickbacks from funeral parlors. It's insanity!

Quote:
The way this was done was wrong. That's all I was saying.
Yes, but I think to call it a trial implies that this is the normal and usual way that vaccine trials occur. They don't. Yes, I do believe that the results of trials can be tainted by the people who are paying for the trials or at least the results can be presented and interpreted in a less than objective way but the idea of preying on the poor and the insane in order to test new medications or vaccines is not one that is embraced by any legitimate, ethical scientist. Just like the idea of getting drunk and sleeping with your child is not embraced by any parent with half a brain. What happened was not a trial, it was criminal behavior.

Quote:
sorry if I misunderstood you lisa, when you said "not to be contrary, but" I'm sorry if for some reason you felt you had to participate in this and it prevented you from participating in othe threads on the board.
Nope, I sneak in a few minutes here and there when I can. I just meant that I'm not going to spend a ton of time arguing til I'm blue in the face when no one is really listening

Quote:
please know it's an ethical issue for me, as I stated in my first post. It's something some parents want to know. I heard about it through my AP email loop, we all love and care about our children, some vaccinate and some don't, but all the AP mamas I know are really moral people who like to know about this kind of thing, which is why I shared.
I don't have a problem with you sharing the info, I have a problem with the title of the post, just like I have a problem with articles about babies who were killed due to their parents' drunkenness that are titled to imply that they died from cosleeping. The people who died in that so-called trial didn't die as the result of a "trial", they died as the result of criminal behavior on the part of those who administered the vaccine.

Hope that clears it up. I'm not commenting one way or the other on vaccines and I don't believe that I have here. IMO what I choose to do about vaccines is irrelevant here. This is about the way information is presented - I have no problem with a discussion on ethics (although this one is pretty cut and dried, I can't imagine that ANYONE would think this was OK, AP or not) but I think if we are going to complain about the way certain AP practices are presented that we should hold ourselves to the same standards. JMHO.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #12  
July 24th, 2009, 12:22 AM
MilkyJo's Avatar Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK, Berkshire
Posts: 203
To be fair, the newspaper article title is equally misleading IMO: "Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland".

But then, that is exactly the sort of thing I've come to expect from the media, especially here in the UK. They do it all the time and I hate it. "Unethical Trial in Poland Kills Homeless" doesn't generate the same amount of interest as making out as though the bird flu vaccine was somehow responsible in the title. Bird flu is the story of the moment here in the UK (Telegraph is a UK newspaper & there's been a sudden surge of bird flu cases, including fatal ones) and putting that in the title is almost guaranteed to generate more views.

Sadly it works... even on me lol. That's why they do it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
July 24th, 2009, 05:39 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 394
Yes I am aware this is an ongoing problem in the area. (mostly from military ties I have who are familiar with the workings of these people) I guess the wording of the article was not unclear to me. They are saying the trial killed the people. I guess I understand there is more to a trial then just what medication is being used and so the article title was not lost on me.

As for the way they do trials in general, I never implied all trials are done this way, but MANY trials are done unethically and without proper safety (such as them thinking a 5 day test of a mock up vaccine is enough to determine safety) and that happens even in the US. The real issue here is that trials LIKE this happen ALL OVER the world, and many times no one finds out. People should know and demand safer trials.

I am sorry you have a problem with me using the title of the article as the title of the post lisa. Personally I find your attitude about it a lot more unfair then the title of the post being the same as a title of the article. If you have a problem with the title of the article, contact the newspaper. I was just passing along a message, and the main message is that trials are being performed unethically (and it's not just in poland) and sometimes they get called out on it (like in this article) and something they don't. There are some standards the medical community feels comfortable that they don't need to meet. This article is an example of that. I'm glad they were called out on it.


I was just reposting a story I thought others would find important to read. if they didn't agree with it they could just pass it over. I guess some people just need to put other AP mamas down around here though. Makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside?

Really, don't know why I had to be the bad guy just because I used the same title for my post as was used for the article title. but, I'm sensing a pattern here that seems to shed some light on the reason.

Last edited by ipaintwithwords; July 24th, 2009 at 05:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:22 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0