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  • 3 Post By Social Halfwit
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  #1  
March 27th, 2013, 07:59 AM
alittlelost's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Sometimes it is surprising to me how we keep having battles over human rights and equality. Like, as a whole, we don't learn the bigger message the first time.

We've been through religious rights. We've been through women's rights and ethnic rights and so on. Sure, some people stubbornly cling to their prejudice and ignorance, but as a society we've moved past these things because those people DESERVED equal rights--HUMAN rights. And now the LGBT community has to fight for the rights as well. To be honest, it's quite aggravating to me that this would even need to be discussed! Haven't we, as a whole, learned what equal human rights means? Do we really have to keep explaining what HUMAN is to people? I do think eventually--hopefully soon--the LGBT community will get the equal rights they deserve.

After that, I wonder if there will be more progress made for children's rights. I'm not saying a 6 year old should be allowed to vote, BUT I do think that children should have the same basic HUMAN rights. Currently, they do not; there are so many exceptions to the laws when it comes with kids, as though their status in this society is "property" before "human". For example, it is a crime to hit another person (unless they consent, such as in sports of sexual preference) but not a crime to hit a child. The exception can't come from them being "related" because I know it wouldn't be legal to smack my grandmother (nor would I want to). It's acceptable only because the child is not an adult, and somehow that excludes them from a protection that is granted to those that are bigger and stronger than they are. Even more upsetting is how many states still allow corporal punishments in schools; there are even private schools you cannot send your child to UNLESS you agree to letting them use CP on your children. How is this legal?

Often, those who are for disregarding the rights of others hide behind their religious freedom. I see it with children OFTEN, where people say they have the right to raise their children according to their religious beliefs, which in their case just so happens to include obeying their god by hitting their child. AND you see the same attitudes toward gays, and in the past, toward women and different ethic groups. These attitudes still exist today, but at least in some cases society does not condone nor allow it. The problem I have with using religion as an excuse for how you treat someone else is it would be a slippery slope. I think most people would agree that you can't kill someone just because you think your religion said you could. Likewise, you can't use your religion as an excuse to hit another adult.

My "rule" for determining rights, while perhaps not perfect, is that one person's rights end where another begins. In other words, you can do whatever you want with your life so long as you are not hurting the rights of someone else in the process. You are free to go to church, because that does affect me directly (or at all really lol) but you cannot spray me in the face with holy water pepper spray because you think god told you to. You do not have to attend a gay marriage or marry someone of the same sex, but you can't use your religion to stop someone else from marrying someone of the same sex. And so on. You can't say, "it's my right to hit my child" because your child is human and has the right not to be hit, so your perceived "right" to do something would directly conflict with someone else's basic human rights. That's where the line is. And if you think about it, you can live a really free life without

What do you think? Is it infringing on someone's right to stop them from infringing on someone else's rights? Or is it overstepping your bounds to claim your "rights" give you the right to prevent someone else from accessing their rights?
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  #2  
March 27th, 2013, 11:01 AM
Destiny
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I think that it's necessary to change public opinion first. I know groups of Christians who are spreading the word that corporal punishment is not endorsed in the original languages of scripture. I know that the vast majority of people I know believe that not hitting your children leads to delinquency, despite reams of evidence to the contrary. I think it's necessary to shed light on the truth, because eventually people start listening, talking and changing.
There's still a long way to go, but I think as public opinions change, so will society, for better or worse. I think that if most Christians realize that the Bible doesn't command them to hit their kids, they would wholeheartedly stop. I think that if people really listen to the damage they're causing by hitting their children, they would want to know their options.

Sorry if I rambled, I'm a bit short on sleep.
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  #3  
March 27th, 2013, 01:47 PM
alittlelost's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Very well said I like the gentlechristianmothers site and tell christians who are looking for biblical led parenting to look there I'm not religious or christian, so I guess it's not my place to say so, but I don't think the bible endorses hitting children. those scriptures are taken out of context IMO where the real message, taken in context, is to guide your children and to be kind and gentle with children.

I think of this, too: Christians believe they are God's children. Yet, if anything BAD happens to them, they don't say "God did it to me". They give god credit for everything good and blame the devil for everything bad. that tells me that they don't think god is the kind of god to "punish" them because he wouldn't hurt his children. so why do they think god wants them to hurt their children?
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  #4  
March 27th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Social Halfwit's Avatar the shade of it all
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I've been trying to reply to this topic, but I really can't say much without crossing line and being mean and/or offensive. So I will just say, I believe the separation of church and state needs to be a lot stronger than it currently is.
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  #5  
March 27th, 2013, 03:21 PM
alittlelost's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Yes, I agree Too often people hide behind religion (ie--using it as an excuse to intrude on someone else's rights) or try to force their beliefs on others (ie--voting against gay marriage because 1) they incorrectly believe being gay is a sin and 2) they are forgetting that even if it was, that should not impact an american's rights who may not believe the same thing or in the same way). Thankfully most Christians I know aren't that way, though
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  #6  
March 27th, 2013, 04:04 PM
Destiny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlelost View Post
Very well said I like the gentlechristianmothers site and tell christians who are looking for biblical led parenting to look there I'm not religious or christian, so I guess it's not my place to say so, but I don't think the bible endorses hitting children. those scriptures are taken out of context IMO where the real message, taken in context, is to guide your children and to be kind and gentle with children.

I think of this, too: Christians believe they are God's children. Yet, if anything BAD happens to them, they don't say "God did it to me". They give god credit for everything good and blame the devil for everything bad. that tells me that they don't think god is the kind of god to "punish" them because he wouldn't hurt his children. so why do they think god wants them to hurt their children?
I wholeheartedly agree, and thought the same way when I still was a Christian. I think that a lot of the more common teachings (hell, the trinity etc.) have no biblical basis, but that's a conversation for another day.

ETA: I love Gentle Christian Mothers!
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  #7  
March 29th, 2013, 12:32 PM
IronMamma's Avatar Intactivist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Social Halfwit View Post
I've been trying to reply to this topic, but I really can't say much without crossing line and being mean and/or offensive. So I will just say, I believe the separation of church and state needs to be a lot stronger than it currently is.


I also have strong opinions.

I do think though that any belief should NOT be so forced like most are now a days. Let people think for themselves.
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  #8  
March 30th, 2013, 07:20 PM
sareymac's Avatar Mommy to Gary & Adalyn
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All I am going to say about this is that it is DISGUSTING how many people try to force their beliefs and make you feel like because you believe one thing you should believe other things too, like what they think. I hate it and I am over that crap.
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  #9  
March 30th, 2013, 09:28 PM
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I think some really great points have been made and I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of what it is. I don't think it is ok for anyone to share said opinions in any way that is hurtful or disrespectful of others. I do think Christians, and/or other religious groups get singled out for their 'bigoted' views, and fairly so. However there are many other groups who are equally as vocal and yet I notice a lot of that being ignored and the 'attack' is against "the" church... not "a" church, or other group.

Not that it's really important but marriage between ANY 2 people however is not a human right, neither is carrying a weapon, or trying to cross an international border (just a few examples of things I have recently been told are 'Human Rights")... it's just some food for thought, most people don't actually know what their rights are... human or civil. etc. Even I claim ignorance for the most part, the topic really fascinates me, and I'd like to learn more.
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  #10  
March 30th, 2013, 10:17 PM
Quantum_Leap's Avatar frequent flier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchywannabe View Post
I think some really great points have been made and I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of what it is. I don't think it is ok for anyone to share said opinions in any way that is hurtful or disrespectful of others. I do think Christians, and/or other religious groups get singled out for their 'bigoted' views, and fairly so. However there are many other groups who are equally as vocal and yet I notice a lot of that being ignored and the 'attack' is against "the" church... not "a" church, or other group.

Not that it's really important but marriage between ANY 2 people however is not a human right, neither is carrying a weapon, or trying to cross an international border (just a few examples of things I have recently been told are 'Human Rights")... it's just some food for thought, most people don't actually know what their rights are... human or civil. etc. Even I claim ignorance for the most part, the topic really fascinates me, and I'd like to learn more.
Freedom of marriage is a human right. It's in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which the U.S. voted in favor of). The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 16.
alittlelost likes this.
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  #11  
March 31st, 2013, 04:30 AM
Mega Super Mommy
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Interesting, well I guess that shows how much I know I was under the impression that human rights were more about having shelter, food, water, etc than things like marriage, and mandatory elementary education..
(I was also in the middle of hearing DH rant about his job and how he's told on a daily basis he's "violating my rights" when he is well within his job description to do what he does, and it actually isn't their "right" to be doing what they are.)

In this case, and after reading this I don't really get how the states has laws banning same sex marriage.... If this is an agreed upon human right, it doesn't make sense that they can exclude certain groups. But obviously that's the point of this discussion.
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  #12  
March 31st, 2013, 06:15 AM
alittlelost's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Human Rights...


Article 1 Right to Equality -- the laws don't even pretend that child or LGBT have this right.
Article 2 Freedom from Discrimination -- LGBT not getting this right now
Article 3 Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security -- Children often don't get this.
Article 4 Freedom from Slavery
Article 5 Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment -- All citizens are no subject to experiencing this from the government, thanks to some recent laws passed under the Obama Administration. Also, children have not ever been free from degrading treatment, but last I checked, they are human.
Article 6 Right to Recognition as a Person before the Law -- building off above, clearly LGBT and children are no being considered people by the law.
Article 7 Right to Equality before the Law -- already covered this.
Article 8 Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal
Article 9 Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile
Article 10 Right to Fair Public Hearing
Article 11 Right to be Considered Innocent until Proven Guilty The laws on this are rarely if ever followed.
Article 12 Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Article 13 Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country
Article 14 Right to Asylum in other Countries from Persecution
Article 15 Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It
Article 16 Right to Marriage and Family -- Completely being ignored by our country. the reason they are getting away with this is Christians are claiming marriage belongs to them and defining what constitutes as a marriage. This is an example of our lack of separation of church and state.
Article 17 Right to Own Property
Article 18 Freedom of Belief and Religion People use this as an excuse to violate the rights of those who are not currently being treated as humans by the law (again, most specifically children and LGBT)
Article 19 Freedom of Opinion and Information
Article 20 Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association Hah. Yeah right.
Article 21 Right to Participate in Government and in Free Elections
Article 22 Right to Social Security Maybe the right to PAY Social Security, but my generation will likely not receive SS when we age. The funds for SS are being sent elsewhere, leaving the SS bank dry to the pepole who paid in.
Article 23 Right to Desirable Work and to Join Trade Unions
Article 24 Right to Rest and Leisure
Article 25 Right to Adequate Living Standard
Article 26 Right to Education
Article 27 Right to Participate in the Cultural Life of Community
Article 28 Right to a Social Order that Articulates this Document
Article 29 Community Duties Essential to Free and Full Development
Article 30 Freedom from State or Personal Interference in the above Rights The above rights are violated by our laws as well as parents and various hate groups and/or religions on a daily basis.
__________________
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PM me if have questions about autism, TTC gender swaying, natural childbirth, going "vaccine-free", or if you are looking for gentle discipline advice.
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  #13  
March 31st, 2013, 06:15 AM
alittlelost's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,905
Human Rights...


Article 1 Right to Equality -- the laws don't even pretend that child or LGBT have this right.
Article 2 Freedom from Discrimination -- LGBT not getting this right now
Article 3 Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security -- Children often don't get this.
Article 4 Freedom from Slavery
Article 5 Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment -- All citizens are no subject to experiencing this from the government, thanks to some recent laws passed under the Obama Administration. Also, children have not ever been free from degrading treatment, but last I checked, they are human.
Article 6 Right to Recognition as a Person before the Law -- building off above, clearly LGBT and children are no being considered people by the law.
Article 7 Right to Equality before the Law -- already covered this.
Article 8 Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal
Article 9 Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile
Article 10 Right to Fair Public Hearing
Article 11 Right to be Considered Innocent until Proven Guilty The laws on this are rarely if ever followed.
Article 12 Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Article 13 Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country
Article 14 Right to Asylum in other Countries from Persecution
Article 15 Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It
Article 16 Right to Marriage and Family -- Completely being ignored by our country. the reason they are getting away with this is Christians are claiming marriage belongs to them and defining what constitutes as a marriage. This is an example of our lack of separation of church and state.
Article 17 Right to Own Property
Article 18 Freedom of Belief and Religion People use this as an excuse to violate the rights of those who are not currently being treated as humans by the law (again, most specifically children and LGBT)
Article 19 Freedom of Opinion and Information
Article 20 Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association Hah. Yeah right.
Article 21 Right to Participate in Government and in Free Elections
Article 22 Right to Social Security Maybe the right to PAY Social Security, but my generation will likely not receive SS when we age. The funds for SS are being sent elsewhere, leaving the SS bank dry to the pepole who paid in.
Article 23 Right to Desirable Work and to Join Trade Unions
Article 24 Right to Rest and Leisure
Article 25 Right to Adequate Living Standard
Article 26 Right to Education
Article 27 Right to Participate in the Cultural Life of Community
Article 28 Right to a Social Order that Articulates this Document
Article 29 Community Duties Essential to Free and Full Development
Article 30 Freedom from State or Personal Interference in the above Rights The above rights are violated by our laws as well as parents and various hate groups and/or religions on a daily basis.
__________________
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PM me if have questions about autism, TTC gender swaying, natural childbirth, going "vaccine-free", or if you are looking for gentle discipline advice.
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