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  #41  
February 11th, 2007, 01:48 PM
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How is a bfing mom to take away night feedings and substitute day feedings? There is a reason that breasts don't have oz lines on them. My bfed baby ate every 45-60 minutes during the day and every 2-3 hours at night. I had plenty of milk, I actually had to deal with OVERsupply issues, so it's not that he wasn't getting enough, it just digests super fast. How exactly do I squeeze more feedings in there? Besides, you can't force a baby to bfeed if he's not hungry. Yes, you can always shove a bottle in a baby's mouth and make them eat, but not with bfing.

Also, ff babies tend to sleep thru the night sooner anyway. How are you to know if it was the book or just the formula? I have no doubts that most ff babes could sleep thru the night at 4, 6, or 12 weeks, their poor lil bodies are having to work so hard to digest their food that they NEED the extra sleep.

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. I am not saying you are "starving" your children, but you are not addressing their needs when they need them met, you are addressing them when it is convenient to you. Any type of sleep training before 6 months is irresponsible and, dare I say, bordering on neglectful.[/b]
I am sorry, but I don't think that anyone who isn't a medical doctor should be telling someone that they are a neglectful parent.
[/b][/quote]

No one said "you are a neglectful parent." This is a debate board and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even the sleep "experts" Ferber & Weisbluth (sp?) don't suggest sleep training a child before the age of 4 months, and actually suggest waiting for 6 mos because babies don't normally have the ability to self-soothe before then.
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  #42  
February 11th, 2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
No one said "you are a neglectful parent." This is a debate board and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even the sleep "experts" Ferber & Weisbluth (sp?) don't suggest sleep training a child before the age of 4 months, and actually suggest waiting for 6 mos because babies don't normally have the ability to self-soothe before then.[/b]
You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was stated as a fact. It was stated "Any type of sleep training before 6 months is irresponsible and, dare I say, bordering on neglectful." That was stated as a fact, and an accusation of neglect. And, all I am saying is that only a doctor or a professional should be making factual statements and accusations like that. Plus, my PEDIATRICIAN is the one who suggested that my son be weaned off his night bottles at three months. Honestly, I don't care what sleep "experts" say. I listen to my doctor, and I trust his advice and 30+ years of experience more than someone who has never been to medical school.
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  #43  
February 11th, 2007, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
No one said "you are a neglectful parent." This is a debate board and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even the sleep "experts" Ferber & Weisbluth (sp?) don't suggest sleep training a child before the age of 4 months, and actually suggest waiting for 6 mos because babies don't normally have the ability to self-soothe before then.[/b]
You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was stated as a fact. It was stated "Any type of sleep training before 6 months is irresponsible and, dare I say, bordering on neglectful." That was stated as a fact, and an accusation of neglect. And, all I am saying is that only a doctor or a professional should be making factual statements and accusations like that. Plus, my PEDIATRICIAN is the one who suggested that my son be weaned off his night bottles at three months. Honestly, I don't care what sleep "experts" say. I listen to my doctor, and I trust his advice and 30+ years of experience more than someone who has never been to medical school.
[/b][/quote]


what if a doctor, with 30 years experience, says that it's wrong and neglectful to sleep train? Dr. Sears is a pedi, and has been for quite a long time and he is very against it.
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  #44  
February 11th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
No one said "you are a neglectful parent." This is a debate board and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even the sleep "experts" Ferber & Weisbluth (sp?) don't suggest sleep training a child before the age of 4 months, and actually suggest waiting for 6 mos because babies don't normally have the ability to self-soothe before then.[/b]
You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that was stated as a fact. It was stated "Any type of sleep training before 6 months is irresponsible and, dare I say, bordering on neglectful." That was stated as a fact, and an accusation of neglect. And, all I am saying is that only a doctor or a professional should be making factual statements and accusations like that. Plus, my PEDIATRICIAN is the one who suggested that my son be weaned off his night bottles at three months. Honestly, I don't care what sleep "experts" say. I listen to my doctor, and I trust his advice and 30+ years of experience more than someone who has never been to medical school.
[/b][/quote]
I am completely entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that sleep training an infant is wrong. An infant should not be expected to comform to your needs, you made the choice to have the infant, you conform to their needs!
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But, my doctor did encourage that we wean him off his night bottles at 3 months, by putting him to sleep a little later in the night and making sure he got 8 (yes 8) bottles a day, which would lead him to be getting the 32 ounces of formula he needed[/b]
If I eat 1500 calories before 12pm, that does not mean I am not going to be hungry within 12 hours again. The meal replacement is a bunch of "hooey", as far as I am concerned. I am also going to agree with Zacksmama, and assume that anyone that is successful in such sleep training is formula feeding, I BF and there was no way I could make my son eat when he wasn't hungry or refuse his demands when he was.
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  #45  
February 12th, 2007, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
I am completely entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that sleep training an infant is wrong. An infant should not be expected to comform to your needs, you made the choice to have the infant, you conform to their needs![/b]
You're right, I did make a choice to have an infant. And, I (with the help of the doctor I chose) will decide how to raise him. I am going to write this debate off as another parent telling me how I am not doing my job because I decided to do things differently. I guess I will just have to deal with a badly adjusted child. I just think people should really think before they make judgements on other parents (especially when they don't know all the facts).
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  #46  
February 13th, 2007, 06:55 AM
Morwen's Avatar Regular
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Quote:
Wow....I wonder if we could blow this sleep-training issue out of proportion more than it already is....i can't believe the accusatory tone of so many of the posts.
Can we just say if you want to sleep train go ahead and if you don't, don't? There's no need to throw words like "neglect" into it. I find it ridiculous to refer to teaching a receptive and healthy baby to sleep through the night as "neglectful" when the poster already stated she is not letting the baby scream, all the baby's needs are attended to, etc. Give her a break.[/b]
Thank you Chloe... Finally a voice of reason!!!
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  #47  
February 13th, 2007, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
We don't do any kind of "scheduling" with our kiddos. We feed on demand. Granted, some days it was 5 hours between feedings, and other days 45 minutes. We sleep on demand. Our first naturally hit the hay for a full night (about 7.5 hours) around 4 months old. Our second may not.

I can honestly say I don't agree with scheduling feedings or any kind of sleep training. Maybe because I simply don't understand it. I don't particularly think people who do it are wrong, or neglectful; I just feel that infants are infants and shouldn't be made to adhere to an adult's schedule. That includes any type of "training" in order to get them on that schedule. I'm of the way of thinking that those things will happen naturally, when the time is right for the baby, not when the adults want it to.

Do I think the OP is a horrible mother because she went a different route? No. Do I think my way is better? No. In all honestly, I can tell you I just don't understand the concept, therefore I couldn't practice it.[/b]
thank you Redifer... I appreciate your logical outlook on this...

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  #48  
February 13th, 2007, 07:15 AM
Morwen's Avatar Regular
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Quote:
I think the problem is that the OP is the one who came on here with an "accusatory" tone, questioning her friend's, and then later on, the people who responded's parenting methods. I think a lot of us actually started off very nicely, just trying to point out that there are REASONS for not wanting to follow sleep training methods.

JMO though... [/b]
If my intial post came off accusatory that was not my intention, I was having a moment of confusion as I couldn't understand a certain point of view... In hindsight I should have just congratulated my friend on her 6 1/2 hrs of sleep...

But I posted here in hopes of understanding the bennifits of feeding on demand when the child is older, and all I seemed to get here were a lot of defensive (and please don't say you weren't) mommies who backed me in a corner and actually left a very bad taste in my mouth.

I appologize to any one I may have offened with my 'accusatory' tone, however that was not my intention nor the case when I originally posted the message.

~
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  #49  
February 13th, 2007, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
But IMO you may be setting yourself up for some serious sleep issues down the road..[/b]


We have never sleep trained or used a book of any kind. We have never cried it out. Our kids sleep. Did they do it by 12 weeks? no. Some fed more often at night than others, but they now ALL asleep through the night, even the little guy.

I dont like the above quote because you are being just as judgemental as you feel the others are being to you. Pot? Kettle? Glass houses and all that jazz.

Although since you also said this:
Quote:
And I am seriously offended that you suggest that my son may have security issues. I am here for my son more than most Moms are there for their children, and I take my parenting responsiblities very seriously.[/b]
I am guessing you might not ge the whole pot kettle thing It's ok for you to insinuate that people are setting themselves up for sleep problems but when they insinuate you will have some problems you get offended.


Feeding schedules can also affect milk supply in breastfeeding moms and, if done too earily (even with formula babies) can cause failure to thrive (see AAP if you think I am BSing you )

Quote:
Quote:
I think the problem is that the OP is the one who came on here with an "accusatory" tone, questioning her friend's, and then later on, the people who responded's parenting methods. I think a lot of us actually started off very nicely, just trying to point out that there are REASONS for not wanting to follow sleep training methods.

JMO though... [/b]
If my intial post came off accusatory that was not my intention, I was having a moment of confusion as I couldn't understand a certain point of view... In hindsight I should have just congratulated my friend on her 6 1/2 hrs of sleep...

But I posted here in hopes of understanding the bennifits of feeding on demand when the child is older, and all I seemed to get here were a lot of defensive (and please don't say you weren't) mommies who backed me in a corner and actually left a very bad taste in my mouth.

I appologize to any one I may have offened with my 'accusatory' tone, however that was not my intention nor the case when I originally posted the message.

~
[/b]

Feeding on demand even at an older age can:

1) maintain good supply
2) benefit a child who is a more fickle eater during the day
3) Maintain lactation amenorrhea
4) benefit a sick child or boost the immune system

Those are just a few, there are also different ideas of parenting which can lead to more benefits in the eyes of different parents.
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  #50  
February 14th, 2007, 12:42 PM
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[quote]
Quote:
But IMO you may be setting yourself up for some serious sleep issues down the road..
I dont like the above quote because you are being just as judgemental as you feel the others are being to you. Pot? Kettle? Glass houses and all that jazz.

Although since you also said this:
Quote:
And I am seriously offended that you suggest that my son may have security issues. I am here for my son more than most Moms are there for their children, and I take my parenting responsiblities very seriously.
Ok sure I get the whole pot/kettle thing but I also offered up an example of a Mom who currently has sleep issues with a child of 4 yrs of age who wishes she knew about this book so she could use some of the tips and tricks to get her daughter to sleep through a full night. (and she is only one of the many Moms I know who currently have sleep issues with their children)

I did not come out and verbally attack the Moms who decide to continue to feed on demand after a certain age, I just defended my point of view and gave examples and proof to make my statement more credible.

Once again it is a great example of where you only see what you want and not the true intention of the message.

~
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  #51  
February 14th, 2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
I did not come out and verbally attack the Moms who decide to continue to feed on demand after a certain age, I just defended my point of view and gave examples and proof to make my statement more credible.[/b]
Right, you just said (written, not verbally) that their kids would have problems. So if I showed you some studies that show attachment issues with sleep training, you would not be offended by someone saying your kid will have security issues? right.

No one likes others making statements like that about their kids. "THey're going to have problems" just because they feed on demand longer. It's like saying "you are setting yourself up to get breat cancer by not breastfeeding."

BTW- anecdotal evidence is really easily disproven. YOu know this one person with sleep issues. My kids fed on demand until much older thasn yours and they all sleep fine. So if we are going on anecdotal evidence, you idea of "setting yourself up for sleep issues" is disproven right there.

Also, what you may think of as a "sleep issue" is normal to another family and not an issue at all. I gave you a list of benefits for 'older' on demand feeding. some families think those are important and that not sleeping through the night 12 hours is not an issue at all becuase they want those listed benefits.
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  #52  
February 14th, 2007, 01:07 PM
Morwen's Avatar Regular
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I did not come out and verbally attack the Moms who decide to continue to feed on demand after a certain age, I just defended my point of view and gave examples and proof to make my statement more credible.[/b]
Right, you just said (written, not verbally) that their kids would have problems. So if I showed you some studies that show attachment issues with sleep training, you would not be offended by someone saying your kid will have security issues? right.

No one likes others making statements like that about their kids. "THey're going to have problems" just because they feed on demand longer. It's like saying "you are setting yourself up to get breat cancer by not breastfeeding."
[/b][/quote]

Right and I am ok with examples of children who have security issues due to sleep 'training'. I like to do my research.

Still in my defense, for the LAST time... I did not verbally or written attack any of the Mom's on this board. Not the same way I was told I was neglecting my son, and how it is strongly implied that I am a bad Mom.


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  #53  
February 14th, 2007, 01:11 PM
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You saying that they are setting up sleep issues implied they are bad moms, too. Unless you are saying that it is good parenting to give your kid sleep issues.
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  #57  
February 15th, 2007, 06:43 AM
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i just thought aboutthis. if your babe is on a 4 hour eat schedule and a 12 hour sleep schedule then they are only eating 3 times a day!!!
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  #60  
February 15th, 2007, 07:17 AM
~Jess~'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
i just thought aboutthis. if your babe is on a 4 hour eat schedule and a 12 hour sleep schedule then they are only eating 3 times a day!!! [/b]
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