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So your animal is sick, and in pain....


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  #1  
April 28th, 2008, 06:33 PM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Your family pet, who has been apart of your family for 12 years, is sick, and isn't doing well. So you can choose to have your animal put out of their misery, and laid to rest.
So...your 92 year old father, has been battling cancer for 7 years now, and is only getting worse, hasn't left the hospital in 5 of those 7 because he can't get out of bed, and he is miserable. He wants nothing more then to be put of his misery, all it takes is for you to pull that plug. And make your father happy.

Ok, so maybe I over did it with the years on the father being sick, but there are families who are in worse siituations, where people have to rely on others and machines to keep them living. So we can make the decision for a living creature that can't speak, to die, but can't assist with the wishes of those who can speak rest peacefully?

What do you think? Should medical assisted suicide be legal?
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  #2  
April 28th, 2008, 07:02 PM
SugarNSpice's Avatar VBAC Mommy!!!
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I don't know. But I think the reason it's different for animals is because we hold human life to a higher respect than animal life. I don't know how I feel about assisted suicide. So many factors come in to play, I just don't know.....it's hard to know what is the right thing to do.
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  #3  
April 28th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Just Nana's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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This is a very personal subject to me my 15 year old son was in a drowning accident by the time we arrived at the hospital he was on life support systems. We went thru all the test that could be given at the time and he was found to be brain dead, he developed staph infection of the lungs from the lake water that he swallowed. We as a family made the decision to pull him from all life support systems with the exception of the feeding tube. All his Dr. thought he would br dead in less than 24 hrs one mo. later we took him home still in coma where I cared for him for another 45 days before he passed. The only reason we were allowed by the hospital to take off the machines is because prior to this he had seen his grandfather hooked up to life support and stated to the whole family dont ever do that to me. We had to go thru an ethics committe to get approval and everyone of the dr and or nurses who had taken care of him had to agree that there was no hope for him. Had any one of them said we should not do it we would have had to go to court to be allowed to do this.;

Some people may or may not classify this as assisted suicide but we saw it as letting him be in the hands of God no man made support system ie venelator . Please ladies be very careful of your answers as this can be a very destructive topic to someone who has been there done that.
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  #4  
April 28th, 2008, 08:22 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I think we allow pets to be put down because of the compassion of not wanting them to suffer. How can we say that we don't have that same compassion for the people in our life. Yes, it is very difficult to get around the legal issues associated with assisted suicide but it should be my given right to end my life when I choose to. I don't understand how anyone who has watched a loved one suffer can argue differently.
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  #5  
April 28th, 2008, 08:25 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
This is a very personal subject to me my 15 year old son was in a drowning accident by the time we arrived at the hospital he was on life support systems. We went thru all the test that could be given at the time and he was found to be brain dead, he developed staph infection of the lungs from the lake water that he swallowed. We as a family made the decision to pull him from all life support systems with the exception of the feeding tube. All his Dr. thought he would br dead in less than 24 hrs one mo. later we took him home still in coma where I cared for him for another 45 days before he passed. The only reason we were allowed by the hospital to take off the machines is because prior to this he had seen his grandfather hooked up to life support and stated to the whole family dont ever do that to me. We had to go thru an ethics committe to get approval and everyone of the dr and or nurses who had taken care of him had to agree that there was no hope for him. Had any one of them said we should not do it we would have had to go to court to be allowed to do this.;

Some people may or may not classify this as assisted suicide but we saw it as letting him be in the hands of God no man made support system ie venelator . Please ladies be very careful of your answers as this can be a very destructive topic to someone who has been there done that.[/b]
To the OP, I dont know. I am always torn on this one. I think there are certain circumstances its ok, and others its not. Its hard to make a "line" to where its ok or not though, and thats why I am torn.

To this^^ WOW! that is SO sad, but I dont consider that assisted suicide. I think thats just letting nature take its course and ultimately leaving the outcome up to God, (or nature or whatever you believe). In your case if you would have gave him something TO help him pass, that would be assisted suicide. You just ALLOWED him to naturally pass. I cant imagine what you would have went through with that! I'm so sorry ANYONE has to go through that, but especially with a child its just terrible.
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  #6  
April 28th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Just Nana's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
This is a very personal subject to me my 15 year old son was in a drowning accident by the time we arrived at the hospital he was on life support systems. We went thru all the test that could be given at the time and he was found to be brain dead, he developed staph infection of the lungs from the lake water that he swallowed. We as a family made the decision to pull him from all life support systems with the exception of the feeding tube. All his Dr. thought he would br dead in less than 24 hrs one mo. later we took him home still in coma where I cared for him for another 45 days before he passed. The only reason we were allowed by the hospital to take off the machines is because prior to this he had seen his grandfather hooked up to life support and stated to the whole family dont ever do that to me. We had to go thru an ethics committe to get approval and everyone of the dr and or nurses who had taken care of him had to agree that there was no hope for him. Had any one of them said we should not do it we would have had to go to court to be allowed to do this.;

Some people may or may not classify this as assisted suicide but we saw it as letting him be in the hands of God no man made support system ie venelator . Please ladies be very careful of your answers as this can be a very destructive topic to someone who has been there done that.[/b]
To the OP, I dont know. I am always torn on this one. I think there are certain circumstances its ok, and others its not. Its hard to make a "line" to where its ok or not though, and thats why I am torn.

To this^^ WOW! that is SO sad, but I dont consider that assisted suicide. I think thats just letting nature take its course and ultimately leaving the outcome up to God, (or nature or whatever you believe). In your case if you would have gave him something TO help him pass, that would be assisted suicide. You just ALLOWED him to naturally pass. I cant imagine what you would have went through with that! I'm so sorry ANYONE has to go through that, but especially with a child its just terrible.
[/b]
Thank you it has been 22 years but I still remember everyday of that time. I just wanted to share so people would understand this is a very heartbreaking thing to have to do and to have compassion with their replays.

That was also wjy we kept the feeding tube in him we were not going to starve him to death but not keep him alive by artifical means when there was no hope for him.
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  #7  
April 28th, 2008, 08:49 PM
Just Nana's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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This was him 6 mo before his death

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  #8  
April 28th, 2008, 10:17 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Overall I believe in assisted suicide because I believe in a person's right to die with dignity & with some control over what will happen. I am not sure I would choose it for myself, but I have also never been in the position where I hurt so bad that I would think passing now would be preferable to passing later. I would think that if a terminal patient wants to end their suffering they should be allowed to get the assistance they need to do so.

When someone is on life support & then removed I do not see that as assisted suicide...and I don't *think* legally that is the same issue. Typically (unless someone contests it) family is allowed to decide that they do not wish for artificial means of life support to be continued & they are also allowed to put a DNR order in place.

I think of assisted suicide as being where pills or other means are used to precipitates one's death prematurely when they are suffering with a terminal illness. I may be wrong, but that was my understanding.
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  #9  
April 28th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Just Nana's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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That is true but 22 years ago that was not the case. Had anyone on staff objected to what we had decided we would have had to go to court to have it done. When my father passed 3 years ago he had a DNR and there were no problems.
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  #10  
April 28th, 2008, 10:46 PM
whatever
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This is a very personal subject to me my 15 year old son was in a drowning accident by the time we arrived at the hospital he was on life support systems. We went thru all the test that could be given at the time and he was found to be brain dead, he developed staph infection of the lungs from the lake water that he swallowed. We as a family made the decision to pull him from all life support systems with the exception of the feeding tube. All his Dr. thought he would br dead in less than 24 hrs one mo. later we took him home still in coma where I cared for him for another 45 days before he passed. The only reason we were allowed by the hospital to take off the machines is because prior to this he had seen his grandfather hooked up to life support and stated to the whole family dont ever do that to me. We had to go thru an ethics committe to get approval and everyone of the dr and or nurses who had taken care of him had to agree that there was no hope for him. Had any one of them said we should not do it we would have had to go to court to be allowed to do this.;

Some people may or may not classify this as assisted suicide but we saw it as letting him be in the hands of God no man made support system ie venelator . Please ladies be very careful of your answers as this can be a very destructive topic to someone who has been there done that.[/b]
I'm sorry.

I am for assisted suicide under the rules of the Oregon death with Dignity act. I am also for people taking their loved ones off of life support when there isn't any other way.
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  #11  
April 28th, 2008, 10:49 PM
LaLa's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I, too, am torn on this. Unfortunately, humans arent always to be trusted. I believe if someone is of sound mind, and speaks for themselves, then it carries more weight. I have a harder time with family members making the decision for someone once the person can no longer speak for htemselves (which is often the case when the decision needs to be made).

I've been through it twice with family.

Neither time was pretty.

First - my grandmother. She had a tumultuous relationship with my mother, and I had cared for her for a couple years before emphysema and a series of strokes really brought her health to an all time low. She decided to make amends with my mother, moved to be with her, and of course it didnt go well. In the midst of it all, my grandmother had lung failure, got hospitalized & was on life support. My mother, by her bedside, called the life insurance companies one by one, rewrote the will, illegally got a notary to sign off on it, and within a week decided to pull the life support including the feeding tube. i remember the day vividly b/c it was my sisters birthday. I was furious.
Drs had stated she wouldnt live, she would of course dehydrate & likely die sooner than the average person b/c of her respiratory problesm. Within 24 hours she woke up from her previous non responsive state, asked for something to eat, and told my mother that she would never let her do that to her again. She stayed angry over it or the year and a half she lived after that. She finally died in hospice care, in my mothers home, from a morphine induced respiratory failure. My sister claims my mother continually gave my grandmother morphine even when my grandmother begged her not to b/c it made it so difficult for her to breathe. Hospice refused to comment & my mother creamated her body before we could ask for an investigation.

As you can imagine, I'm pretty sore. My mothers defense is "grandma didnt want to live that way " & both times she did it for HER sake (my grandmothers sake). That she insisted she didnt want to live on a machine. I disagree with not only her actions, but her motive as well. She now suffers a morphine addiction from also stealing the morphine while my grandmother was in hospice care in her home.

The second situation was with my grandfather (on my other side). He went in for surgery on his colon (which is an entirely new debate in and of itself). I questioned the risks, and attneded an appointment to discuss options with him & his dr. His dr told him he had no choice, a colonoscopy showed he may have cancer of the colon. At 80 yrs old with major heart & artery problems & BP problems, I personally disagreed & considered the surgery risker than the POTENTIAL cancer.

He had the surgery at the drs encouragement (imagine that - a surgeon encouraging you to have surgery). He didnt wake up. He had 3 cardiac arrests overnight, and the nurses didnt realize until in the morning. His bedside monitor had been silenced, and his pacemaker had been helping his heart beat. They rushed him to ICU where he spent the next 7 days in a coma. We were told he was likely brain dead. On the 6th day I went to visit him, knowing the next day my aunt was insisting the family make a decision to pull him from life support. He looked at me, shed a tear, and squeezed my hand. The drs insisted it was only reflexes. (He was also on kidney dialysis as his kidneys had shut down).

The next morning - we arrived at the hospital to find out hed been alert & awake for the first time. My aunt was there to request he be removed from dialysis & life support. Needless to say, she didn't. Unfortunately - she harshly told my grandmother the day before that my grandfather was brain dead & was physically dead except the machines. My grandmother suffered a post traumatic type disorder ever since and in a matter of 2 weeks went into full fledged alzheimers/dimentia from the trauma (they hadnt told her anything until then).

My grandfather is now caring for my grandmother. she sometimes recognizes him but they think its only part alzheimers - part of it is her believing he is dead in order to avoid having to deal with losing him again.


Of course, he always said he didnt want to live like a vegetable or hooked up to machines. He sings a slightly different tune now, especially now that he realizes just how much my grandmother relied on him.

Lala...
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  #12  
April 28th, 2008, 11:03 PM
Just Nana's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Lala I am so sorry for the pain that you had to deal with.
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  #13  
April 29th, 2008, 07:43 AM
rose198172's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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We had a debate on this a few weeks ago, I think. My position hasn't changed... I DEFINITELY think that assisted suicide should be legal. There needs to be some way for legal documents to be in place, though, otherwise, I guarantee you that few physicians would allow themselves to be put in that position. Who wants to make that choice in the best interests of a patient to only possibly to be faced with a murder charge later?
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  #14  
May 2nd, 2008, 12:28 AM
acupofjoe's Avatar Proud mama of three!
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i think you should be able to put animals to sleep but not humans.
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  #15  
May 2nd, 2008, 02:40 PM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
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I think that if a person is sound of mind and makes the decision they do not want to live with what ever illness they have, then they should be able to ask for death. I do not think a doctor should have to oblige them, meaning they should not be forced to partake in it, but there are compassionate doctors out there who would be more than happy to honor the wishes of a patient. I think these doctors should be given some leeway if a patient is sound of mind and has made this decision.

There was a problem with choosing to die here. A woman, was being crippled with MS. She didn't want to waste away like her own mother had, being dependent on people for everything. They flew to Switzerland to a clinic and when her husband came home, they were going to charge him with something because he took her there so someone could kill her. I think what he did was an amazingly hard thing, but he honored his wife's wishes.

But it's to each his own on this topic. Some see it as wrong, others see it as right. I think it should be left up to the person who's sick whether they want to live or not, not the general public.
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  #16  
May 2nd, 2008, 03:36 PM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I agree, I don't think anyone should stand in the way of a personal choice and force someone to live. And I'm not just talking about illness, who is anyone to say they HAVE to live?That's a very personal decision.
By the way, I'm in no way condoning things like suicide because someone broke up with their girlfriend and now he is depressed.
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