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  #1  
April 29th, 2008, 10:04 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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So - when it comes to BF/FF debates....it seems that each side always gets accused of being derogatory or inflammatory.... and LOTS of words get twisted...

Is it possible to debate issues surrounding BF/FF without this happening?

I truly want to understand this...because as long as people are defensive - then they are unwilling to hear each other. If people can't hear each other then it's like beating your head into a wall & it's a pointless exercise...rather than an intelligent back & forth dialog. I know many women have learned things here - me included...but I am also rather thick skinned & not easily offended overall. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt since I understand how hard it is to read tone in type.... and it probably helps that I have been around long to enough to get to know a few people here a bit better & have a "feel" for them. I know they aren't ever trying to be prickly to me (or if they are, I just choose to ignore it - LOL). After all - we may be at odds on one debate here & on the same side in the next debate...and a few ladies here are in my support groups as well - so I never take debates to be anything more than the issue itself...but so many seem to think you are attacking their whole person when you disagree with their position (particularly if you strongly disagree) & I am not sure how to address that.....
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #2  
April 30th, 2008, 08:58 AM
LaLa's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I agree with you - I'm thick skinned, though I admit I get frustrated when there is someone involving themselves in the debate, and obviously going out of their way to be ignorant to facts. Particularly when it comes to BFing, one because its an issue I'm passionate about and two, because it is one of the single most important decisions you can make for your child (which goes hand in hand with why i'm passionate about it).

With that said, mothering is a topic that women will always get defensive about, particularly if theyre mothers. Just like men place a large value on themselves generally in respect to how successful they are in their job and how well they provide for their family, I think women inherently place a large value on themselves based on their mothering. We all want to believe we are doing the best we can, whether we really are or not. Nobody wants to believe theyre not doing the best they could, or that they could be doing better, particularly in the area of motherhood.

So BFing topics will always be heated for some women. Add that to the fact youll always seem to have that ONE person who will always take everything & anything personally or as an attack because of whatever reason (usually because they havent come to terms with their own decision, but not always).

so... I dunno. I think ideally, wed all hear each other out, talk civilly, and discuss the pros & cons.

I know I'm a bit stubborn, I know its not black and white but I also dont believe the gray divide is as wide as many moms seem to think. I find it unfortunate that so many people are so uneducated & misinformed & mislead about FFing, and I think its a crucially important topic. SOme women think it's no big deal, and I will probably always hold the view that if they think it's no big deal, they clearly don't realize the benefits of BFing over FFing lol.

So, who knows! lol. I think I'm just rambling now.

Lala...
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  #3  
April 30th, 2008, 04:47 PM
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I tend not to be easily offended. However, it does sometimes seem like the FFers are made to feel less "educated" if they chose to ff (for example). Comments such as "I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF". That's not a direct quote...but it probably could be. To me...I read..."you must be really uneducated to FF given the facts about BFing being so much better".

I have said before that I think some of us are just trying to say why someone would choose to FF. I see all the time people say "excuses" or "reasons" like they can't possibly be good ones. I mean, if someone could BF, why wouldn't they? Right? But...there are a miriad of reasons why...but none of them are good enough. That's what irritates me the most.

If I seem defensive it's because it seems like no one really wants to hear the answers or to understand why someone would make that choice (not out of necessity). If people would just even pretend that they understood it may make a difference. Everyone is so forgiving and understanding when someone tries and can't. Well I didn't try. But something in my soul just wouldn't let me. I love my son and would give my life for him. I finally started to piece together a history of abuse in my family...add to that some fleeting memories as a child with my grandfather...add to that the fact that I have always been uncomfortable with my breasts (having them touched or looked at...whatever). I think that may have been an underlying issue for me. So for someone to say "BFing is the thing to do ... unless you have a medical condition or take drugs that would harm the baby...". Well, other things may prevent someone from BFing too, but those things get overlooked or just seem to not be good enough "reasons".
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  #4  
April 30th, 2008, 10:15 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Comments such as "I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF". That's not a direct quote...but it probably could be. To me...I read..."you must be really uneducated to FF given the facts about BFing being so much better".[/b]
I could be a person that would say that statement - because for me it is true. I don't really understand...I try to understand. But I do feel like if someone read all I have read on it & looked at it objectively - it is hard for me to understand how someone would choose not to do so if they could. That isn't me saying someone is uneducated about it....it is just a statement on my feelings.

I guess the ONLY way to explain it (in my mind) is an analogy (and I KNOW how everyone hates analogies...so please do not think I am trying to compare the two topics..simply the research/info side of this issue)...

Lots of people have smoked in their lives. For some they quit early - realizing they didn't like the effects & health risks. Others quit much later, perhaps when someone they cared about got sick with emphysema or cancer from it....then there are always a few that had to get sick themselves & then decide it is time & EVEN then there are some that will take off an oxygen mask, or asked to be wheeled outside from a hospital to have a cigarette while fighting for their lives. In all those cases, it is likely that ALL those people were given the SAME info about how dangerous & unhealthy smoking is...yet some use that info to never smoke & others will still do it regardless. I also don't really understand that either. It doesn't mean I lack compassion - far from it. I am one of those that actually feels the most compassion for the person that despite all the consequences still doesn't "get it".....or maybe they do & something in them doesn't allow them to care enough to change it.

I am NOT saying FF is like smoking..as I said it is the only analogy I could think of - particularly at this hour. What I am saying is that I don't understand overall how as human beings we can each be given the same set of facts & stats & info & come to such different ideas about that same topic. So while I don't understand why a woman who has seen all the data I have chooses something different - it doesn't mean I am judging her or accusing her of being a bad mom or whatever...it simply means I believe so strongly in the benefits of BF that I have a hard time conceptualizing why someone would choose to not even try.

(On a side note & hopefully no one will be too terribly offended that I brought this up - but I have honestly IRL known more women to be willing to try something sexual that their SO/DH asks for that completely grosses them out - than I have known women who are willing to give BF a try even if they find it gross for the benefit of the baby...and that COMPLETELY confuses me. I am NOT saying that is true of anyone here - I don't knwo anyone here like that - and I don't want to. LOL. I am saying women I know well enough to have confided in me IRL ONLY.)
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #5  
May 1st, 2008, 07:33 AM
LaLa's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Heck, I'll make an analogy. Its like vaccines. (and im antivax so bear with me lol).

If you could have a vaccine for your child, that was risk free, ENSURED that they would be the healthiest they could be, the smartest they could be, in general it would be the GUARANTEED best thing for them. SCIENTIFICALLY proven to have NO risks for YOU or YOUR child. It would reduce your risk of cancers more than any other one single thing... and to boot, it was FREE. Would you do it?

That "thing" - that "vaccine" - is breastmilk.

And I know I know, they say formula isnt "all that bad". But - if breastmilk is what we were MADE to have, and its naturally produced for that purpose... and formula is the ALTERNATIVE... then its not that cancer is NORMAL and Allergies are NORMAL and that breastmilk REDUCES those chances. Its that we were SUPPOSED to have less cancers, allergies, etc - and unfortunately formula INCREASES those risks. I get irritated when folks (including myself lol) say breastmilk REDUCES your chances. No. Thats the Norm. FF increases those risks.

So - if you had to choose - if your child had to get the vaccine that made them healthier, or the vaccine that had known risks, and you had both available, the healthy one FREE, the riskier one cost you money - WHY would you choose the riskier one?

Now, with ALLLLL that said... I DID FF my oldest, despite the fact that I could BF. It was a combination of reasons why, but above all else, miseducation on my part, and being given misinformation on the part of my ped (Which circles back to lack of education about it on my part). If I could undo any one thing I've ever done, that would be it.



Lala...
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  #6  
May 1st, 2008, 07:59 AM
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I agree with both of you, actually. And I considered BFing because my dh is type 1 diabetic and I know that BFing would reduce the risk that ds would be so too. Don't people think that if I could have "made" myself do it, I would have?

Why does no one ever address the issues that people say they have? I for one have (even above) explained that there was a sexual abuse history in the family...which I have memories of. I never really put the two together, but the more I thought about this particular issue (BFing)...I started to realize they may be connected. I've always had issues with my breasts...and I couldn't fathom BFing my son. In my heart of hearts I believed in the end I would resent my son. I wasn't willing to risk that.

I guess I am just "looking" for understanding. Maybe even an appreciation for the fact that people do "get it"...understand that there are reasons beyond "medications" that prevent people from being able to BF.
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  #7  
May 1st, 2008, 01:40 PM
LaLa's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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For what its worth, I do understand. ANd I definitely dont discount it at all. As someone who has been physically abused, and raped, I know the power that it can have over your life. ANd just from my knowledge of BFing, I know it can have a powerful influence on a womans decision to BF, and even beyond that - it can cause physical pain just b/c of the emotional trauma. The mind is a powerful thing. Of course, these things *can* be dealt with, but typically the time it would take would take far longer than it would to make BFing possible, esp if you dont realize what an effect it will have until you face BFing head on.

Personally, I think regardless of the BFing issues, counseling would be beneficial. A lot of moms do shy away from BFing b/c of the trauma associated, and it can have a tremendous affect even on the birth of a child, adn we all know that the two go hand in hand (Birth & BFing).

Its very possible that your mindset could change if you sought counseling/therapy... particularly if you sought it out with that being one of the goals - to deal with the trauma to the point that you would be comfortable enough to breastfeed a future child. Having a concrete goal such as that may help... but then again, thats certainly one field I am NOT an expert in lol.

Lala...
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  #8  
May 1st, 2008, 01:53 PM
mommyKathyX3
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I agree with both of you, actually. And I considered BFing because my dh is type 1 diabetic and I know that BFing would reduce the risk that ds would be so too. Don't people think that if I could have "made" myself do it, I would have?

Why does no one ever address the issues that people say they have? I for one have (even above) explained that there was a sexual abuse history in the family...which I have memories of. I never really put the two together, but the more I thought about this particular issue (BFing)...I started to realize they may be connected. I've always had issues with my breasts...and I couldn't fathom BFing my son. In my heart of hearts I believed in the end I would resent my son. I wasn't willing to risk that.

I guess I am just "looking" for understanding. Maybe even an appreciation for the fact that people do "get it"...understand that there are reasons beyond "medications" that prevent people from being able to BF.[/b]
I understand, and generally speaking think its an acceptable excuse. I have heard many women who have had breastfeeding being the thing that HELPS them get past those pyschological problems cause they are able to distinguish that breasts are NOT just sexual. I know everyone KNOWS that, but somtimes subconciously its HARD to differinciate (spelling?) I think those women if all possible should try breastfeeding, but if even the idea of it causes more mental pain for you, then by all means DONT. I think many women just say, nope, not even going to entertain the thought, and I think thats sad. If you really dont feel right doing it, though, I understand. I think sexual abuse is another one of those things that cant be put into a "one size fits all" situation either. Some women will be able to seperate them, some cant.
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  #9  
May 1st, 2008, 05:08 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
"I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF[/b]
I've said exactly that and I stand by it.
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  #10  
May 1st, 2008, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
"I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF[/b]
I've said exactly that and I stand by it.
[/b][/quote]
But nothing to say about any of my other posts...that's why some women think BFers are closed minded...just sayin.
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  #11  
May 1st, 2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>"I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF[/b]
I've said exactly that and I stand by it.
[/b][/quote]
But nothing to say about any of my other posts...that's why some women think BFers are closed minded...just sayin.
[/b][/quote]

I have to say I agree.

I think, for the most part, the reason those debates turn into something where people get offended and angry is the tone in which everything is said.

I think that it is a very passionate topic for some people - and they get so caught up in their cause (whether it be ff or bf) that they forget that there is a living, breathing person on the other side of the debate that has feelings. (I'm trying to word this as carefully as possible, here...)

Some bf moms make ff moms feel like bfing is the be all and end all of motherhood, that their children are less healthy, less smart, and bound for diseases, sicknesses, gas, and constipation - and that they should break their proverbial backs and pull out all the stops to bf - and if they don't, then they must not be educated. I'm not being defensive over this, because I am a bfing mom myself and I am proud of my decision - I'm just stating an observation.

That is not to say that the ff moms are innocent of losing sight of the debate and forgetting that there is a real live mom on the other side - everyone is passionate on the subject and personal feelings are bound to get thrown in. I just think that every mom and every family is different, if we are not in the other person's place, then we do not truly know the situation and should not judge something like feeding choices so harshly. (Before this gets jumped on, I will state that I DO know all the benefits of bfing and all that, and I DO acknowledge how important it is - so don't flame me for saying that bfing isn't important!)


Lisa
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  #12  
May 2nd, 2008, 06:14 PM
Sweetpea0708's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I think the problem falls on WHO actually gets offended. Most of the women who I've noticed, feel attacked, are people who really had NO choice. They wanted to BF, but couldn't, so now they get even more upset when someone says "FF is bad for your baby!!!" (not a direct quote). Like the PP said, it's the tone. It's hard to recognize the tone someone is setting based on a textual response.

I think that most pro-BF are against FF-ers who choose to FF for reasons such as "my boobs are for entertainment" or "its disgusting" or "I just don't feel like it", which doesn't at ALL include the people who inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason. Amber, you found that you have something in your past that disconnects you from the desire to BF. I think that is WAY different than "I don't want my boobs to sag."

Unfortunately, it winds up that the debate becomes SO generalized that pro BF fail to acknowledge that women who can't BF ultimately didn't have that choice to begin with, so how could they possibly defend their actions without it becoming personal? and many FFers fail to acknowledge that just because you COULDN'T BF, doesn't mean you CHOSE to FF.

I think a better debate would be Choosing to BF/Choosing to FF, because it effectively addresses people who actively chose to FF/BF.

As far as those who didn't because they were uneducated about it, well DUH, they didn't know enough to make a educated choice (to FF or BF). But most of those ladies don't appear to be offended, they openly admit they didn't do enough research (whichever side they are on).
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  #13  
May 2nd, 2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
I think the problem falls on WHO actually gets offended. Most of the women who I've noticed, feel attacked, are people who really had NO choice. They wanted to BF, but couldn't, so now they get even more upset when someone says "FF is bad for your baby!!!" (not a direct quote). Like the PP said, it's the tone. It's hard to recognize the tone someone is setting based on a textual response.

I think that most pro-BF are against FF-ers who choose to FF for reasons such as "my boobs are for entertainment" or "its disgusting" or "I just don't feel like it", which doesn't at ALL include the people who inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason. Amber, you found that you have something in your past that disconnects you from the desire to BF. I think that is WAY different than "I don't want my boobs to sag."

Unfortunately, it winds up that the debate becomes SO generalized that pro BF fail to acknowledge that women who can't BF ultimately didn't have that choice to begin with, so how could they possibly defend their actions without it becoming personal? and many FFers fail to acknowledge that just because you COULDN'T BF, doesn't mean you CHOSE to FF.

I think a better debate would be Choosing to BF/Choosing to FF, because it effectively addresses people who actively chose to FF/BF.

As far as those who didn't because they were uneducated about it, well DUH, they didn't know enough to make a educated choice (to FF or BF). But most of those ladies don't appear to be offended, they openly admit they didn't do enough research (whichever side they are on).[/b]
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  #14  
May 2nd, 2008, 06:28 PM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>"I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF[/b]
I've said exactly that and I stand by it.
[/b][/quote]
But nothing to say about any of my other posts...that's why some women think BFers are closed minded...just sayin.
[/b][/quote]

Agreed. It's statements like this that belittle formula feeding moms. Even with a simple statement like that, you presume all ff moms had a choice. With such a small sentence, it made such an impact. Just reading that one sentence and not having debated this with crunchymama before I would not know that she would find ff acceptable in some cases.

I came across a doula at a meeting once, who was discussing breastfeeding. She wouldn't doula anyone with intentions of formula feeding, and she truly believed that there was absolutely no medical condition that couldn't be overcome so a mother could breastfeed. IMO, she is a paid birth support partner, and don't think this much pressure and influence should be placed on a woman. I believe that every woman should have the support, education and encouragement to breastfeed, but once her decision is made, she should not be 'put out', belittled or ostrasized for it.

Quote:
I think the problem falls on WHO actually gets offended. Most of the women who I've noticed, feel attacked, are people who really had NO choice. They wanted to BF, but couldn't, so now they get even more upset when someone says "FF is bad for your baby!!!" (not a direct quote). Like the PP said, it's the tone. It's hard to recognize the tone someone is setting based on a textual response.

I think that most pro-BF are against FF-ers who choose to FF for reasons such as "my boobs are for entertainment" or "its disgusting" or "I just don't feel like it", which doesn't at ALL include the people who inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason. Amber, you found that you have something in your past that disconnects you from the desire to BF. I think that is WAY different than "I don't want my boobs to sag."

Unfortunately, it winds up that the debate becomes SO generalized that pro BF fail to acknowledge that women who can't BF ultimately didn't have that choice to begin with, so how could they possibly defend their actions without it becoming personal? and many FFers fail to acknowledge that just because you COULDN'T BF, doesn't mean you CHOSE to FF.

I think a better debate would be Choosing to BF/Choosing to FF, because it effectively addresses people who actively chose to FF/BF.


As far as those who didn't because they were uneducated about it, well DUH, they didn't know enough to make a educated choice (to FF or BF). But most of those ladies don't appear to be offended, they openly admit they didn't do enough research (whichever side they are on).[/b]
I strongly agree.
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  #15  
May 2nd, 2008, 11:48 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I think the problem falls on WHO actually gets offended. Most of the women who I've noticed, feel attacked, are people who really had NO choice. They wanted to BF, but couldn't, so now they get even more upset when someone says "FF is bad for your baby!!!" (not a direct quote). Like the PP said, it's the tone. It's hard to recognize the tone someone is setting based on a textual response.

I think that most pro-BF are against FF-ers who choose to FF for reasons such as "my boobs are for entertainment" or "its disgusting" or "I just don't feel like it", which doesn't at ALL include the people who inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason. Amber, you found that you have something in your past that disconnects you from the desire to BF. I think that is WAY different than "I don't want my boobs to sag."

Unfortunately, it winds up that the debate becomes SO generalized that pro BF fail to acknowledge that women who can't BF ultimately didn't have that choice to begin with, so how could they possibly defend their actions without it becoming personal? and many FFers fail to acknowledge that just because you COULDN'T BF, doesn't mean you CHOSE to FF.

I think a better debate would be Choosing to BF/Choosing to FF, because it effectively addresses people who actively chose to FF/BF.

As far as those who didn't because they were uneducated about it, well DUH, they didn't know enough to make a educated choice (to FF or BF). But most of those ladies don't appear to be offended, they openly admit they didn't do enough research (whichever side they are on).[/b]
I just want to clarify....I am not against FFers...that implies I am "against formula feeders" I am not. I am against misinformation, lack of information, and cultural biases that prevent women from opening their minds & giving it a try. I know some pretty passionate BF moms that really hate formula, hate formula companies...I serious don't know any that are "against FFers"...if that makes sense.

I absolutely acknowledge they are cases where BF is not possible. The problem from my side of it is that the stats for overall BF are horrendous for the USA. We have states whose rates for exclusive BF through 6 months are so low we really should be ashamed. Louisiana was at 2.6% as of 2207 - how could 97.4% of all moms in Louisiana fall under "inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason"?.... I am not saying some of the moms there don't have those reasons - but you have to know how bad the situation is that the number is THAT low. Other states do better...but even so it is far below the mark of what every major world health organization says we should be at. I KNOW women have issues with BF. I had a few issues myself. I know few women who didn't. I didn't love it right off. It didn't feel like the most natural thing on earth to do. I dealt with some stumbling blocks with severe lack of sleep, repeated clogged ducts, mastitus, a very difficult work situation to pump in, etc... I think for many reasons women are ill prepared for how hard it can be, many don't have the support they need(ed) (me included), etc. Unless we continue to promote BF & promote education I don't see how any of it will improve. I love the debates for this reason. I don't think a mom that FF out of choice will ever wander over to the BF support board & read up on it - and if she does she will likely see stuff that will only make her sure she doesn't want to do it..because people seldom come on to gush about how great it is - they mostly come on with problems, needing advice or help. So most of the time all you will see there is why it is hard. In the same way the debates offer a forum to discuss what you have chosen & why you chose it. I think it is good for both sides. I have seen many women here that start of defensive over things come to peace with things here.

I agree with you that often women who attempt to BF & aren't able to make it work for whatever reason are often the ones who seem most offended in these debates. I think there are many reasons likely behind that. I also know I have seen women here that tell their story & say they were told things (and I BELIEVE they were told these things) that simply are not true, or it was just bad advice, etc. That makes it really hard because I think everyone has the right to know if someone else sabotaged their chance at having a successful BF relationship with their child by their well meaning (or not) information that either wasn't accurate, wasn't complete, or wasn't current. heaven knows I received a LOAD of bad advice myself & thankfully had a LLL leader/mentor to filter it all through as well as a good friend that had been through it before. The hard part is that if you tell someone it could have gone differently if they had done X, Y, and Z - they often internalize it to mean you think they should have tried harder....and that isn't the same thing. If you don't say anything - they may believe the incorrect info or bad advice with any future children they have thus making it likely they will not be successful again or they may even unknowingly pass along bad info to other moms attempting to BF. You really can't win in that scenario. You can try to be sensitive in your delivery - but often I have tried to type out what I want to say in the right tone & how someone else reads that tone is kind of up to them & a little out of my control.
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  #16  
May 3rd, 2008, 08:23 AM
mommyKathyX3
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I think the problem falls on WHO actually gets offended. Most of the women who I've noticed, feel attacked, are people who really had NO choice. They wanted to BF, but couldn't, so now they get even more upset when someone says "FF is bad for your baby!!!" (not a direct quote). Like the PP said, it's the tone. It's hard to recognize the tone someone is setting based on a textual response.

I think that most pro-BF are against FF-ers who choose to FF for reasons such as "my boobs are for entertainment" or "its disgusting" or "I just don't feel like it", which doesn't at ALL include the people who inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason. Amber, you found that you have something in your past that disconnects you from the desire to BF. I think that is WAY different than "I don't want my boobs to sag."

Unfortunately, it winds up that the debate becomes SO generalized that pro BF fail to acknowledge that women who can't BF ultimately didn't have that choice to begin with, so how could they possibly defend their actions without it becoming personal? and many FFers fail to acknowledge that just because you COULDN'T BF, doesn't mean you CHOSE to FF.

I think a better debate would be Choosing to BF/Choosing to FF, because it effectively addresses people who actively chose to FF/BF.

As far as those who didn't because they were uneducated about it, well DUH, they didn't know enough to make a educated choice (to FF or BF). But most of those ladies don't appear to be offended, they openly admit they didn't do enough research (whichever side they are on).[/b]
I agree, and I get frustrated that many ffers put all bfers in one category as many bfers put all ffers in one category.
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  #17  
May 3rd, 2008, 08:25 AM
Sweetpea0708's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 8,594
Quote:
I absolutely acknowledge they are cases where BF is not possible. The problem from my side of it is that the stats for overall BF are horrendous for the USA. We have states whose rates for exclusive BF through 6 months are so low we really should be ashamed. Louisiana was at 2.6% as of 2207 - how could 97.4% of all moms in Louisiana fall under "inquired about it, tried it, and it wasn't beneficial for whatever reason"?.... I am not saying some of the moms there don't have those reasons - but you have to know how bad the situation is that the number is THAT low. Other states do better...but even so it is far below the mark of what every major world health organization says we should be at. I KNOW women have issues with BF. I had a few issues myself. I know few women who didn't. I didn't love it right off. It didn't feel like the most natural thing on earth to do. I dealt with some stumbling blocks with severe lack of sleep, repeated clogged ducts, mastitus, a very difficult work situation to pump in, etc... I think for many reasons women are ill prepared for how hard it can be, many don't have the support they need(ed) (me included), etc. Unless we continue to promote BF & promote education I don't see how any of it will improve. I love the debates for this reason. I don't think a mom that FF out of choice will ever wander over to the BF support board & read up on it - and if she does she will likely see stuff that will only make her sure she doesn't want to do it..because people seldom come on to gush about how great it is - they mostly come on with problems, needing advice or help. So most of the time all you will see there is why it is hard. In the same way the debates offer a forum to discuss what you have chosen & why you chose it. I think it is good for both sides. I have seen many women here that start of defensive over things come to peace with things here.[/b]

I agree, I'm not saying every person falls under that case (such as in Louisiana), I'm just saying that those who are most offended seem to be the ones who had the most difficulty. I think that the medical world should be more proactive in educating women about BF and it's hardships. You are right, a FF out of choice probably wouldn't wander over and read about it. They aren't about to debate it either. But when someone says "hey why is there is so much mudslinging" I think the reason is because those who did wander over, really are offended because most cases than not, they did try. Which is why most people who are pro-BF are "against" people who choose to FF for superficial reasons. I don't know anyone who is completely "against FFers". It's more of the reason WHY they FF.

ETA: what I meant by "fail to acknowledge" is that whether they know/accept that there are exceptions or not, they don't hmm how can I say it, necessarily say "exceptions aside" or whatever, so everyone automatically takes it as a generalized statement to include all people who use formula. Should you have to say it EVERY time? No. But alas, this is a textual based debate, and all it takes is for someone new to jump in and read and get offended.
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  #18  
May 3rd, 2008, 05:01 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,383
Quote:
But nothing to say about any of my other posts...that's why some women think BFers are closed minded...just sayin.[/b]
I only see that one post there and that was the only part I had a response to. I do think formula feeding is acceptable when a mother truly can't breastfeed but those moms that truly can't breastfeed will usually still say that if they could have they would have and that breastmilk is the best choice. Tell me what in your (not just you Amber in general) research made you decide that formula was a better choice for your child?

And like I have siad a bazillion times before just becuase I think choosing to use formula is a bad choice does not mean I think if you use formula you are a bad mother.
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  #19  
May 3rd, 2008, 05:09 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,383
Quote:
Agreed. It's statements like this that belittle formula feeding moms. Even with a simple statement like that, you presume all ff moms had a choice. With such a small sentence, it made such an impact. Just reading that one sentence and not having debated this with crunchymama before I would not know that she would find ff acceptable in some cases.[/b]
Quote:
"I just don't understand how someone who researched BFing could still choose to FF[/b]
It says choose if you physically couldn't breastfeed than where was your choose? Of course I understand that some woman can't breastfeed so if they can't breastfeed they aren't choosing to use formula and this statement wouldn't even apply to them. however statistically only 2-4% of woman are unable to breastfeed, i'm not sure if that stat includes woman who can't breastfeed because of antidepressants or other meds or not but still 2-4% of the population is a small percentage of woman compared to the number of babies being fed formula.

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  #20  
May 3rd, 2008, 11:45 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Heck, I'll make an analogy. Its like vaccines. (and im antivax so bear with me lol).

If you could have a vaccine for your child, that was risk free, ENSURED that they would be the healthiest they could be, the smartest they could be, in general it would be the GUARANTEED best thing for them. SCIENTIFICALLY proven to have NO risks for YOU or YOUR child. It would reduce your risk of cancers more than any other one single thing... and to boot, it was FREE. Would you do it?

That "thing" - that "vaccine" - is breastmilk.

And I know I know, they say formula isnt "all that bad". But - if breastmilk is what we were MADE to have, and its naturally produced for that purpose... and formula is the ALTERNATIVE... then its not that cancer is NORMAL and Allergies are NORMAL and that breastmilk REDUCES those chances. Its that we were SUPPOSED to have less cancers, allergies, etc - and unfortunately formula INCREASES those risks. I get irritated when folks (including myself lol) say breastmilk REDUCES your chances. No. Thats the Norm. FF increases those risks.

So - if you had to choose - if your child had to get the vaccine that made them healthier, or the vaccine that had known risks, and you had both available, the healthy one FREE, the riskier one cost you money - WHY would you choose the riskier one?[/b]
Seriously, one of the best posts I have ever read on this whole site! This post is amazing
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