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mental illness and sex crimes


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  #2  
May 5th, 2008, 09:01 AM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Location: Somewhere in Ontario
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Nope, my answer wouldn't change, they should be charged regardless.
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  #3  
May 5th, 2008, 09:21 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Sexual crime is a HUGE variance. A 12 yr old having sex with a 13 yr old can be charged as both a victim AND a preditor in a sex crime. While I think its TERRIBLE that a 12 and 13 yr old are having sex, it DOES happen (heck when I was in 5th grade 19 YEARS ago, a 6th grader had a baby in my school. Her "boyfriend" was in 7th grade and lived in her neighborhood.)

Should those kids be made to have "sexual preditor" put on thier perminent record for thier whole life? NO! They are STUPID KIDS. Now you have a 13 yr old boy/girl who molests a much younger kid, you need to evaluate thier motives. I know SOME 13 yr olds who would be doing it cause they are ignorant about things, and were just CURIOUS. That deems mental evaluation and counceling along with a inspection of thier home life. A 13 yr old could VERY WELL know what they were doing though. Thats why it should NOT be a one size fits all thing. At what age do they become completly liable for thier actions? I dont know. Depends on the child. There was a case of a 4 year old charged with Sexual Harrasement cause he hugged his teacher and layed his head on her chest. Somebody reported it. Another case when a 6 yr old boy smacked his friend who was a girl on the butt like he sees people do all the time on tv, and sexual harassment charges are filed. Teachers have been fired cause they would hug thier students, and charged with sexual misconduct.

Sex crimes is SUCH a grey area.

If you have a mental illness, it honestly matters WHAT the sex crime is. When I worked at Blockbuster Video, there would be a group from the mental health home that would come in EVERY thursday so they could pick out a video. There was like 7-8 of them upper teen years. (15-20) and I got groped MANY times. They'd hug me cause I showed them a movie they wanted, and they'd grab my chest or butt. Not in a "sexual sense" but affectionatley. Also, also, I've had very little kids that are like under 3-4 touch my chest cause I have large breasts, and they are curious and sometimes just for comfort if they are tired or hurt. I just calmly tell them no. (I worked in daycare for 2 yrs) Sometimes a 13 yr old mental illness patient will have the mental capacity of a 4 yr old. That is why you need to evaluate thier mental capacity before you make a charge.

I dont think someone who is capable of VIOLENT sex crimes should be totally excused though, cuase if they are that dangerous they should be kept under better care in general. But mental illness is SO many things, and has SO many levels.

That is why I can not answer this question without knowledge of the crime and the individual.



Even in the case of sexual abuse on a young child. What is "sexual abuse" in that case?
  #4  
May 5th, 2008, 09:49 AM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc. I don't believe a 18 year old dating a 16 year old is a sexual crime.
I don't care if you have a illness, if you rape someone, you are forcing them against their will, you are telling me someone trying to get away saying NO isn't an indication that this isn't suppose to be happening? I'm sorry, I know this may sound mean, but if a mental illness is always an excuse, many people will use it in any crime, murder, robbery, rape, theft etc. I believe if the illness is that bad that they can't understand or comprehend what they are doing is SUPER wrong, they obviously need someone to monitor them at all times. You cannot infringe on MY rights as a human being, I don't care who you are. I would NOT be comfortable sleeping at night and forgetting a rape because someone has an illness.
Besides, aren't most pedophiles etc all put in the category of 'mental illness'? So it's okay if someone molests my son or daughter because they have a mental illness and get off the hook for it while my daughter or son pays for that experience the rest of their lives? Um, NO!
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  #5  
May 5th, 2008, 10:25 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc. I don't believe a 18 year old dating a 16 year old is a sexual crime. I don't care if you have a illness, if you rape someone, you are forcing them against their will, you are telling me someone trying to get away saying NO isn't an indication that this isn't suppose to be happening? I'm sorry, I know this may sound mean, but if a mental illness is always an excuse, many people will use it in any crime, murder, robbery, rape, theft etc. I believe if the illness is that bad that they can't understand or comprehend what they are doing is SUPER wrong, they obviously need someone to monitor them at all times. You cannot infringe on MY rights as a human being, I don't care who you are. I would NOT be comfortable sleeping at night and forgetting a rape because someone has an illness.
Besides, aren't most pedophiles etc all put in the category of 'mental illness'? So it's okay if someone molests my son or daughter because they have a mental illness and get off the hook for it while my daughter or son pays for that experience the rest of their lives? Um, NO![/b]
If you dont believe it, then you are ignorant of the law. You can say "I dont think a 16 and 18 yr old should be considered a sex crime" but it IS.

And there are HUNDREDS of other things that can be called sex crimes too.

In some places breastfeeding in public is called indecent exposure. Slapped with a sexual offender label

Walk outside in your robe, and the wind blows it up. Indecent exposure, sex crime.

Peeing in public (while gross) can be a sex crime.

A streaker (while stupid) can be charged with a sex crime.

Taking pictures of your kids in the bathtub, child porn, and you are a sexual offender.

I listed a bunch of others in my previous post too.

I dont care if you "think" they are or not they are. Should they be, no probably not. That is why the whole "sex crime" label bothers me.

And generally speaking, people who SHOULD be excused for thier actions cause of a mental illness, should not be left alone with children anyway. There are VERY few exceptions. Most severe mental illness is very noticable, and you are aware of it. I agree that SOMETIMES mental illness is an excuse, but its NOT always. Should they be "let off" with no punishment? No, if they are that mentally troubled, they need to recieve EXTENSIVE help, but jail isnt going to help at ALL.

Also, molestation is a HUGE category too. A mother bfing her 6 yr old has been charged with molestation. If somebody sees someone touching someone, ANYWAY, that they deem "innapropriate" they can file molestation charges. They can be totally unwarrented, but you are labeled a "molester".
Sometimes its totally unwarrented, and downright rediculous.

I just will always get upset when people clump it all together. Thats part of what debate is, you have to be specific, and not all sex crimes are violent, or even "unwanted".

True rape, and true child molestation, and that kind of thing are TERRIBLE TERRIBLE things that the offender should be punished somehow, no matter who they are, but not every legally defined molester or sex abuser should be labeled a bad person.
  #6  
May 5th, 2008, 10:54 AM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc. I don't believe a 18 year old dating a 16 year old is a sexual crime. I don't care if you have a illness, if you rape someone, you are forcing them against their will, you are telling me someone trying to get away saying NO isn't an indication that this isn't suppose to be happening? I'm sorry, I know this may sound mean, but if a mental illness is always an excuse, many people will use it in any crime, murder, robbery, rape, theft etc. I believe if the illness is that bad that they can't understand or comprehend what they are doing is SUPER wrong, they obviously need someone to monitor them at all times. You cannot infringe on MY rights as a human being, I don't care who you are. I would NOT be comfortable sleeping at night and forgetting a rape because someone has an illness.
Besides, aren't most pedophiles etc all put in the category of 'mental illness'? So it's okay if someone molests my son or daughter because they have a mental illness and get off the hook for it while my daughter or son pays for that experience the rest of their lives? Um, NO![/b]
If you dont believe it, then you are ignorant of the law. You can say "I dont think a 16 and 18 yr old should be considered a sex crime" but it IS.

[/b]
Did you read the sentence before the one you bolded? That to me, is what a sex crime is, and what I answered my answer based on this debate. And no I am NOT ignorant to the law, YOU ARE, because you would know that laws very State by State and country by country. It's not illegal or a sexual offence in MY province for an 18 year old to be with a 16 year old, or a 14 year old to be with a 16 year old. My entire post went into detail on what I personally was answering this debate on.
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  #7  
May 5th, 2008, 11:20 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc. I don't believe a 18 year old dating a 16 year old is a sexual crime. I don't care if you have a illness, if you rape someone, you are forcing them against their will, you are telling me someone trying to get away saying NO isn't an indication that this isn't suppose to be happening? I'm sorry, I know this may sound mean, but if a mental illness is always an excuse, many people will use it in any crime, murder, robbery, rape, theft etc. I believe if the illness is that bad that they can't understand or comprehend what they are doing is SUPER wrong, they obviously need someone to monitor them at all times. You cannot infringe on MY rights as a human being, I don't care who you are. I would NOT be comfortable sleeping at night and forgetting a rape because someone has an illness.
Besides, aren't most pedophiles etc all put in the category of 'mental illness'? So it's okay if someone molests my son or daughter because they have a mental illness and get off the hook for it while my daughter or son pays for that experience the rest of their lives? Um, NO![/b]
If you dont believe it, then you are ignorant of the law. You can say "I dont think a 16 and 18 yr old should be considered a sex crime" but it IS.

[/b]
Did you read the sentence before the one you bolded? That to me, is what a sex crime is, and what I answered my answer based on this debate. And no I am NOT ignorant to the law, YOU ARE, because you would know that laws very State by State and country by country. It's not illegal or a sexual offence in MY province for an 18 year old to be with a 16 year old, or a 14 year old to be with a 16 year old. My entire post went into detail on what I personally was answering this debate on.
[/b]
Ok, I'll adress your OTHER statement.

Quote:
I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc.[/b]
That is the most IGNORANT thing you can say. You know what ASSuming does right? You are ASSuming wrong. And your line of thinking is why there are people who have been a victim of circumstance and poeple over reacting and thier lives are ruined because of it. I am FULLY aware of the variance in laws from state to state, and even country to country. I can post a link for ya. You want it?

Here is Canada for ya

Quote:
Canada
In June 2006, the Canadian government proposed a bill to raise the age of consent from 14 to 16, while creating a near-age exemption for sex between 14-15 year olds and partners up to 5 years older, and keeping an existing near-age clause for sex between 12-13 year olds and partners up to 2 years older. The initiative also maintains a temporary exception for already existing marriages between 14-15 year olds and partners 6 or more years older, but forbids new marriages like these in the future.[18]

Former Toronto police officer Paul Gillespie said the bill would give police "more tools" in the battle against Internet predators. [19] The alleged intention of the bill is to target “sexual predators” and pimps, although no legal distinction is made to differentiate them from older partners engaged or interested in non-exploitative relationships, or to distinguish between sexual harassment (mainly through the Internet) and normal approaches (generally in the physical world).

Criticism
This proposal has received criticism from different organizations and individuals. Andrea Cohen of the pro-choice Canadian Federation of Sexual Health (formerly Planned Parenthood) said the organization believes the legislation does nothing to keep youth from harm. “What it will do is infringe upon the rights of youth in terms of their ability to make decisions on their own sexuality", affirmed Cohen on TV.[20]

The Canadian AIDS Society has stated that "increasing the age of consent could result in young people being more secretive about their sexual practices and not seeking out the information they need. This will place youth at an increased risk of contracting HIV and other sexually transmitted infections."[21]

Peter Dudding, Executive Director of the Child Welfare League of Canada, criticized the bill's effect of removing judicial discretion in cases involving 14 and 15 year-olds: "When we deal with arbitrary cut-offs, we lose the flexibility to apply the law in a much more specific and individualized kind of way."[22]

Sue Barnes, a former lawyer and currently a Canadian MP, who is the Official Opposition critic of the Liberal Party of Canada for the Minister of Justice, said that age of consent is not an issue that particularly irritates her voters. Gay rights activists also criticized the bill, because it does not address the issue of equality, maintaining the present Canadian age of consent for anal sex at 18. Hilary Cook, spokeswoman for gay rights group Egale believes the bill is “an attempt to score partisan points”.[23]

Amendment
Bill to raise age of consent from 14 to 16 has passed in both houses in March 2008.[24][/b]
Here is a chart as of 2003 for the US as of the age of concent. MOST states state if the offender is 2 yrs or less older than the minor then it isnt punishable. SOME states its less, SOME its more, but MOST its 2 yrs. There is actually a bill currently debating weather the standard should be 3 yrs EVERYWERE.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/j...003-R-0376.htm


Like I said, I know what I'm saying, and I'm not going to make assumptions that a sex crime is molestation or rape, cause its NOT.
  #8  
May 5th, 2008, 11:25 AM
mommyKathyX3
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And there are FIVE states that it IS illegal for a 16 yr old and a 18 yr old to have sex. If she was 15 it would be more than half
  #9  
May 5th, 2008, 11:40 AM
short_n_swt's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere in Ontario
Posts: 2,611
Quote:
Ok, I'll adress your OTHER statement.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I always assume that a sexual crime is molestation, raping etc.[/b]
That is the most IGNORANT thing you can say. You know what ASSuming does right? You are ASSuming wrong. And your line of thinking is why there are people who have been a victim of circumstance and poeple over reacting and thier lives are ruined because of it. I am FULLY aware of the variance in laws from state to state, and even country to country. I can post a link for ya. You want it?

Like I said, I know what I'm saying, and I'm not going to make assumptions that a sex crime is molestation or rape, cause its NOT.
[/b][/quote]

Geez according to you I must be the most ignorant person on the face of the earth. Yes, when someone says to me, and asks me to debate on a sex crime, I think of the worst because I do not consider a 16 year old with an 18 year old as a sex crime. And that is what *I* think of when it comes to this debate, when the OP asked if because someone is mentally ill, should they be let off the sex crime. Yeah it does depend on what the sex crime is, but in my answer I chose to comment on the sex crime as an example of rape or molestation/pedophilia. That does not make me ignorant. I fail to see how me answering this debate in what I feel is a sex crime affects others line of thinking and ruining their lives. Breastfeeding a 6 year old could also be seen as a sex crime-it obviously would be based on why the person is breastfeeding the child. In some cultures it is acceptable to breastfeed a 6 year old, but if the person is doing it for some sort of sexual pleasure, it is a sex crime, which would fall under molestation and other sex crime categories and charges.
And I'm quite aware of the laws in Canada thank you and thanks for backing me up on that That was how my ignorant thinking made the comment of
Quote:
It's not illegal or a sexual offence in MY province for an 18 year old to be with a 16 year old, or a 14 year old to be with a 16 year old.[/b]
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  #11  
May 8th, 2008, 07:28 PM
Lisadear's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
In this case i was referring to a 13 yr old sexually assaulting or molesting a child under the age of 10. Should he or she be convicted? would having a mental illness matter on whether they teenager should be convicted or not?[/b]
might I ask where the question is coming from? cause if its just a general question then it just seems a weird one out of the blue ... if however you know of an ACTUAL incident then that's pretty disturbing also

It's disturbing and difficult to answer either way ... charged yes but convicted no .. what type of mental illness are we talking about? why I said not convicted is that its crucial for BOTH kids ... both vctim and also the abuser because of the tender ages to BOTH get psychiatric counselling and therapy

If a child at 13 sexually abuses or interferes with a 10 year old ... whether or not there's a mental illness is involved, there is something wrong with that picture ... if the 13 year old is an average kid and doing this then RED LIGHT ... something's not right .... if the 13 year old has a mental illness and has done this HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more counselling and treatment needed folks ... and of course the poor victim as well to help him/her deal with this and move forward

I agree btw to EVERYTHING mommyKathyx3 said in her first reply ... excellent response.

xxx Lisa xxx
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xxx Lisa xxx<div align="center">

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  #13  
May 10th, 2008, 06:25 AM
Lisadear's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Location: Trinidad
Posts: 20,623
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
might I ask where the question is coming from? cause if its just a general question then it just seems a weird one out of the blue ... if however you know of an ACTUAL incident then that's pretty disturbing also

It's disturbing and difficult to answer either way ... charged yes but convicted no .. what type of mental illness are we talking about? why I said not convicted is that its crucial for BOTH kids ... both vctim and also the abuser because of the tender ages to BOTH get psychiatric counselling and therapy[/b]
I pmed you about where the question has come from. It is something that has happened recently but not to a 10 yr old but to 2 younger boys younger than 10.
The 13 yr old has bipolar and add/adhd i believe a severe case since he has 4 workers and is suppose to be watched constantly which was never told to me or dh.
[/b][/quote]
got your pm and I replied privately to you

Just want to post here on this board ... bipolar illness would not cause this child to act out in any sexual manner to anyone ... neither would ADD nor ADHD ... actually its the opposite ... persons with bipolar disordr usually act out sexually in a 'damaging' way to THEMSELVES not to others and it heightens with mania ... how do I know this? cause I'm bipolar. my daughter is bipolar and I host the both boards below on my siggies ...

Because of your pm to me btw ... I'm going to pm the host of the Debate board and ask for this thread closed cause I think that if folks don't know where the Topic Post originated from the many replies you're going to get from this thread will be very confusing and damaging to you and the situation it arose from k?

xxx Lisa xxx
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