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  #1  
May 9th, 2008, 04:45 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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I was doing research on the Duggar family for another thread when I ran across thier Pastor. Apparantly the man responsible for these shootings, Matthew Murray, was a raised under the umbrella of the man's teachings and organization.
I did some more research and found this blog which is dedicated to Matthew Murray.. The post I linked to seems to hold the music he was into partly responsible for his homicidal ideation.

Ok, so I clicked on the link he provided. I was shocked. It was Cradle Of Filth's From the Cradle to Enslave. In metal circles, this is considered one of the greatest metal bands of our time. And this is one of their better songs. I've loved this band since I was in high school and used to stay up at night, sneak past my mom, and watch videos I shouldn't have on Headbanger's Ball. I guess I was shocked to find that my music tastes were so similiar to a mass murderers'.

So anyway, my two part question is this. Do you think the extremes this man was exposed to in his childhood contributed to the tragedy he helped create? Read his writings on the above link. He was clearly very disturbed by the extreme standards of behaviour he was expected to uphold. No popular music, no television, the devil was in everything. Here's why I don't think the music contributed. When you grow up being taught that the devil is in everything that is not in your religion, then you get out and see what's out there, and it's not really that horrible, then you may think that the devil's not so bad either. And it warps your mind a little. See, subconsiously, it's not so easy to give up your fear of the whole world. Some people react to that by embracing the most violent aspects of self, and others do the opposite.

Or was it the music? Did he get attracted to the music as a sense of rebellion, and then did it warp his mind? Did he, never having been exposed to anything the least untoward, have less tolerance for this type of media?

Do you think it's irresponsible to create this type of media? And being that I personally have been a fan of this type of thing for years, why then am I such an avid pacifist? Clearly, this media cannot be effecting people all the same way, for even though I am a huge fan of Cradle Of Filth, I would never act out the things they talk about because I recognize it's wrong. I just see it as a way of exploring the worst side of our shared nature and providing an outlet.

Ok, that really turned into a 20 part question lol. Sorry if it doesn't make a lot of sense, I just had it floating around in my mind and thought I would use you ladies as a soundboard.

This is the video Michael Murray linked to specifically in his writings. WARNING: IT'S VERY VIOLENT AND HIGHLY DISTURBING. YOU WILL SEE PARTS OF WOMEN YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO SEE AND BLOOD. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THAT IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN IN THE ROOM OR A WEAK STOMACH, DO NOT WATCH THIS. However if you can stand nudity and the standard horror movie fare, it will give you an idea of what I am talking about.
If you do have children in the room or a weak stomach, this one is considerably tamer, while still giving you an idea of the violent imagry I am talking about.
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  #2  
May 9th, 2008, 04:59 PM
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I haven't had time to read the links, but I'll jump in by saying--there is certain percentage of the population that comes out of the womb as psychos. Thankfully, that percentage is small, but they exist. I think the fact that this man was raised evangelical, then listened to heavy metal and killed people is NOT a linear progression of events. There are plenty of people who were raised evangelical and they turned out normal. There are plenty of heavy metal fans that are completely normal. I'm sure there are many former evangelicals who are now heavy metal fans that are completely normal. There are probably even a few former metal fans that are now evangelicals and even they are normal too. So I don't think either factor had too much to do with the fact that the guy was a sociopath.
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  #3  
May 9th, 2008, 05:28 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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There are probably even a few former metal fans that are now evangelicals and even they are normal too.[/b]
You sure???
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  #4  
May 9th, 2008, 06:29 PM
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There are probably even a few former metal fans that are now evangelicals and even they are normal too.[/b]
You sure???
[/b]
Well, I don't personally know any--I was extrapolating! But I do know of a couple of former bikers that never miss a Sunday at our church--we're not exactly evangelical but we're "old school"!
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  #5  
May 9th, 2008, 08:25 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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There are probably even a few former metal fans that are now evangelicals and even they are normal too.[/b]
You sure???
[/b]
Well, I don't personally know any--I was extrapolating! But I do know of a couple of former bikers that never miss a Sunday at our church--we're not exactly evangelical but we're "old school"!
[/b]
Hey, more power to them....

I am not really simple minded enough to think that the Jesus or the Music turned him crazy. I am just wondering how much of either may have swayed him that way, because obviously the urge was there to begin with. Media affects us in ways we aren't even aware of sometimes. My question is, is it irresponsible to have extremes in media like that when it may have an effect, and to what degree do you think it does effect?
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  #6  
May 9th, 2008, 10:11 PM
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Oooh, I'll extrapolate too, due to a sleeping baby.

Maybe his psychosis made him predisposed to relating to/enjoying this music? Maybe his psychosis made magnified his response, a response that wouldn't manifest itself as homicidal tendencies in a "normal" person? Media and the response of the masses will always be something that really can have no test or control groups; there are just too many variables. Irresponsibility to one may be freedom of speech to another. There are as many people who kill in the name of (in spite of, despite of) religion as those who kill in the name of creative expression.

See, this argument can travel in so many circles, so it's hard to sound concise...
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  #7  
May 9th, 2008, 10:46 PM
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Oooh, I'll extrapolate too, due to a sleeping baby.

Maybe his psychosis made him predisposed to relating to/enjoying this music? Maybe his psychosis made magnified his response, a response that wouldn't manifest itself as homicidal tendencies in a "normal" person? Media and the response of the masses will always be something that really can have no test or control groups; there are just too many variables. Irresponsibility to one may be freedom of speech to another. There are as many people who kill in the name of (in spite of, despite of) religion as those who kill in the name of creative expression.

See, this argument can travel in so many circles, so it's hard to sound concise...[/b]
But would that mean that anyone else who likes/relates to that kind of music is also nuts?

I don't think music can single-handedly make anyone turn into a murderer. These bands sell thousands, sometimes millions of records - why isn't everyone who owns a Cradle of Filth album in jail for murder? I don't even know if it's fair to say the music contributes to the violent acts - I think it just becomes a scapegoat. After Columbine, everyone started blaming Marilyn Manson saying that his music made them kill their classmates, and religious groups were calling for boycotts of his concerts and albums, pretty much just because he sort of had a similar image as the killers - but it came out later that they didn't like him at all. His music was just something "different" people could link the murders to in order to try and make sense of it. I think this case is similar... he liked metal, he must have been evil.

I don't think it's irresponsible to create this type of media, either. Sure, there might be some whackos out there who might take things too far, but does that mean we have to take it away from the responsible people, or limit the artist's freedom of speech? I mean... should the Beatles have never been allowed to record Helter Skelter because there was a chance it was going to make Charles Manson lose his ######?

The Beatles are not responsible for Charles Manson.
Marilyn Manson is not responsible for Columbine.
Judas Priest never told anybody to kill themselves.
Cradle of Filth have nothing to do with Michael Murray.
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  #8  
May 10th, 2008, 06:38 AM
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I haven't had time to read the links, but I'll jump in by saying--there is certain percentage of the population that comes out of the womb as psychos. Thankfully, that percentage is small, but they exist. I think the fact that this man was raised evangelical, then listened to heavy metal and killed people is NOT a linear progression of events.[/b]
I agree.

I don't think it has to do with the music or the church one attends but more to do with the persons mental health state. If someone has "issues" no one can really predict how they will interpret what they're hearing or what effect it will have on them. So, while "they" may blame the music or their pastor, its really their own state of mind that that is the prevalent problem and twists what they are seeing/hearing.
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  #9  
May 10th, 2008, 06:54 AM
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Music is a very powerful media, but saying that it CAUSES murders seems farfetched to me.

I've found that in general, people tend to gravitate towards music that they can relate to -- many people in Texas who live on ranches and wear cowboy boots listen to country music... many teens and twenty-somethings just discovering their individuality and independence gravitate towards punk... and, similarly, you could say that some people with psychotic/"dark"/violent personalities may be more inclined to listen to heavy metal, because the lyrics and sounds are something that they can relate to.

Now obviously not everyone fits into this mold. My parents attended heavy metal concerts way back in the day and and are completely normal, nonviolent, regular churchgoers. I know people who love country music but have lived in urban areas all their lives. Perhaps they find they can relate to other aspects of the music they choose to listen to, or perhaps being able to relate to the lyrics isn't so important to them.

In some ways, music (and other media) does seem to -- perhaps even subconsciously -- set societal "norms," and I do think that some people without other positive examples could fall into thinking that things like violence (as seen on video games), murder (as expressed in music) and extramarital affairs (as seen on TV and movies) are "normal." But I see this as the exception, not the rule.
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  #10  
May 11th, 2008, 04:24 AM
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I don't think music makes you do things or "helps" you do them. I think it has more to do with you... and probably un-medicated mental illnesses. I have a cousin who is bat-###### crazy (he's bipolar and I'm pretty sure schizoprehnic). He once liked marilyn manson and "BECAME" marilyn manson. All of the sudden his childhood was the exact same as manson's, etc. This happens a lot until he finds a new idol. His sister also woke up once to him sobbing and kneeling next to her bed with a knife in his hand saying "Please don't make me." He's said before that he's seen and hears the devil. And then not even a month ago he said he's now god and he's his moms creator.

Anyways, I could see my cousin being the type of person who murders his family on christmas (he's made a lot of death threats) or shooting people at a mall. And I would never blame it on the music he listens to it (he grew up with old school rock, rap in his teens, and I'm not sure what it is now). I would instead blame it on the mental illness since I believe that's what drives people to do those types things.. especially when they're un-medicated and unstable-- which my cousin is (not to mention an addict of heroin thrown into the mix).


I hate media scapegoats. :/
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  #11  
May 11th, 2008, 08:37 AM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
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I agree with the media scape goats comments.

I have grown up being able to listen to what ever music I wanted. The ONLY person I do not listen to is Marilyn Manson. I own CD's my mother would burn if she knew I'd spent the $$ on them, I've attended rock concerts. The only person in the world I'd ever want to hurt is me (I've suffered from suicidal thoughts depression for 12 years).

If I listened to what was said in the songs I listened to, and did them, that is my own fault. There would be some form of mental illness behind there that I either knew about or didn't know about that was causing me to feel it was ok to listen to the lyrics and do what they said... but that's not the case. But the media likes to say it's the music's fault, that metal (whether it be death or heavy) is bad and is causing people to kill each other. Rap music's no better for "influential" lyrics, however people would mostly be having sex and not killing each other.Heck, this means if I take a Louisville slugger bat and go smash up my boyfriends car that someone's going to boycott country music for giving me the idea?

For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.
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  #12  
May 11th, 2008, 10:13 AM
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For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
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  #13  
May 11th, 2008, 10:24 AM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
[/b]
Nothing. Nothing kills people.


I think she meant "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and mistyped.
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  #14  
May 11th, 2008, 11:16 AM
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For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
[/b]
Nothing. Nothing kills people.


I think she meant "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and mistyped.
[/b]
That's what I was thinking. But if not, it sounded like an interesting theory that I was not familiar with (LOL!).
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  #15  
May 11th, 2008, 02:42 PM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
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ah ######! LOL...

Yes I meant, guns don't kill people, people kill people.... sigh... off day for me today.
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  #16  
May 11th, 2008, 04:21 PM
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ah ######! LOL...

Yes I meant, guns don't kill people, people kill people.... sigh... off day for me today.[/b]
I was 99% sure that's what you meant, but I do have a sense of humor and try to use it occasionally so people don't get the idea that I'm mean and beotchy all the time!
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  #17  
May 11th, 2008, 07:26 PM
plan4fate's Avatar I may bend, but not break
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ah ######! LOL...

Yes I meant, guns don't kill people, people kill people.... sigh... off day for me today.[/b]
I was 99% sure that's what you meant, but I do have a sense of humor and try to use it occasionally so people don't get the idea that I'm mean and beotchy all the time!
[/b]
I had a good chuckle at it too... sometimes it's nice to have your mistakes pointed out when you can have a chuckle.
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  #18  
May 11th, 2008, 11:25 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tithen loth nim @ May 11 2008, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
[/b]
Nothing. Nothing kills people.


I think she meant "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and mistyped.
[/b][/quote]
That's what I was thinking. But if not, it sounded like an interesting theory that I was not familiar with (LOL!).
[/b][/quote]

It is the state of being. It kills people. One way or the other.


Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep thoughts.


Hey Tithen Loth Nim, I googled your username to find out what it means. It sounds Gaelic. And I found an old Livejournal of yours from 2006. At least I think it's yours. See?
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  #19  
May 12th, 2008, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(calicocat @ May 11 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
[/b]
Nothing. Nothing kills people.


I think she meant "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and mistyped.
[/b]
That's what I was thinking. But if not, it sounded like an interesting theory that I was not familiar with (LOL!).
[/b][/quote]

It is the state of being. It kills people. One way or the other.


Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep thoughts.
[/b][/quote]
Wow. And I thought IGNORANCE killed people. Hmmm.... I learn something new every day!!
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  #20  
May 12th, 2008, 11:07 AM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Torrie @ May 11 2008, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tithen loth nim @ May 11 2008, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>For the record I also feel that guns don't kill people, people don't kill people. This is an example of this.[/b]
Who/what is responsible for the death of people then? Just wondering...
[/b]
Nothing. Nothing kills people.


I think she meant "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." and mistyped.
[/b][/quote]
That's what I was thinking. But if not, it sounded like an interesting theory that I was not familiar with (LOL!).
[/b][/quote]

It is the state of being. It kills people. One way or the other.


Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep thoughts.
[/b][/quote]
Wow. And I thought IGNORANCE killed people. Hmmm.... I learn something new every day!!
[/b][/quote]

It plays a big part. That and metal music, according to the blog in the OP.
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