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  #1  
June 12th, 2008, 07:50 AM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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http://www.cafonline.org/Default.aspx?page=15454
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iE57zl...1bNliRqmkhXT17A
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  #2  
June 12th, 2008, 11:05 AM
Tiffers's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I think a lot of people still think formula is just as good The formula companies are good at making formula look like it's an equal subsitute for breastmilk.
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  #3  
June 12th, 2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
I think a lot of people still think formula is just as good The formula companies are good at making formula look like it's an equal subsitute for breastmilk.[/b]
I totally agree with this.

You see all sorts of formula commercials on TV and I get TONS of coupons in the mail. I have never seen a commercial on TV promoting breastfeeding or gotten anything in the mail telling me of the benefits.
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  #4  
June 12th, 2008, 02:36 PM
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I think a lot of people still think formula is just as good The formula companies are good at making formula look like it's an equal subsitute for breastmilk.[/b]
I rarely post in this area anymore because, I'll be honest, I let my feelings get wrapped up in the debate, which isn't the point of a debate, but ... sigh... I have to reply...

I *really* disagree. Since my DS was born in July last year, I have gotten very involved in local mom groups and organizations ... we have poor moms, rich moms, educated moms, not-educated moms, older moms, teen moms, moms who used midwives, moms who had OBs, moms who had normal labours, moms who had geunine crash C/Ss etc. Most are from Canada originally, but many are also newer immigrants from other countries. In other words, I have talked to a LOT of moms with a variety of backgrounds, about issues related to having a new baby, and BFing is one of the biggest conversations.

EVERYONE I know is aware of the benefits. Most of these moms have done everything possible to BF, extended BF, etc. despite latch issues, low milk supply, exhaustion, cracking, mastitis, etc. ... those of us who couldn't BF for one reason or another feel embarrassed or ashamed when we "pull out the botte" at a group event. Some of us used to time our arrival for immediately after a feeding so that we wouldn't have to feed in front of anyone.

Using formula is the "dirty little secret" that some moms will mention only in a hushed voice, like they don't want anyone to know about it.

When I read some statistics related to BFing, such as those that are often presented here, I have to wonder how truthful the source information is... if the stats are coming from doctors or public health bodies, the assumption is that the doctors are getting full and honest information. I know lots of moms who "implied" to their public health nurse or their doctors that they were still exclusively BFing even if they weren't, because the tongue-lashing they'd get over it wasn't worth it. Maybe they stopped after several bouts of mastitis, or after their sheer exhaustion of round the clock nursing and pumping was pushing them to the brink of collapse, but for whatever reason, they stopped nursing exclusively - but rather than hear the same old "just keep nursing, nurse through it, keep nursing" they told partial truths to their doctors. When I hear that only 3 to 4 per cent of women truly can't produce enough milk, I think of myself and the seven or eight other women I know who *truly* did everything from LCs to visits to doctors who specialize in BFing, to LLL, to books, videos, herbal supplements, prescription medications that cause stomach upset and terrible headaches, etc. and were still after several months producing only a few ounces during a test weigh.

To suggest that the majority of moms choose formula from a position of ignorance is condescending. Yes, I'm sure there are a portion of moms who do ... but the majority of moms who go to formula do so for a myriad of reasons, not because they're too stupid to know better.




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  #5  
June 12th, 2008, 03:01 PM
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ETA: I should clarify that I disagree with the point that moms don't know that BFing is best. I *do* agree that formula companies are very good at what they do ... but that's what the point of a copmany is. They make a product, they advertise it, we decide if we buy it or not. No, I've never gotten anything in the mail that tells me BF is best, but I've never gotten anything in the mail that tells me that using a car seat is best, but I do that anyway. Just because a company is advertising something, doesn't mean the audience believes everything. Beer commercials are great at making beer drinkers look like cool, fun guys - not stinky hung-over guys. Do I believe that beer drinkers are all cool studly fellows? No. Because I have some basic intelligence and realize that advertising is just that - advertising.

I actually can't recall seeing a formula commercial on tv ever?? Maybe I'm blanking...
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  #6  
June 12th, 2008, 03:22 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
EVERYONE I know is aware of the benefits[/b]
Just becuase they are aware of the benefits doesn't mean they don't think formula is just as good. And how many moms know that tehre actual dangers of using formula?
Quote:
When I hear that only 3 to 4 per cent of women truly can't produce enough milk, I think of myself and the seven or eight other women I know who *truly* did everything from LCs to visits to doctors who specialize in BFing, to LLL, to books, videos, herbal supplements, prescription medications that cause stomach upset and terrible headaches, etc. and were still after several months producing only a few ounces during a test weigh.[/b]
How old were they when thier infants where weighing a few ozs at their test weighs?

Quote:
I actually can't recall seeing a formula commercial on tv ever?? Maybe I'm blanking...[/b]
I do believe Canada is much more supportive of breastfeeding than US and maybe doesn't even allow formula commercials. In US if you are wathcing TLC you will see at least one Nestle commercial every hour.


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  #7  
June 12th, 2008, 04:01 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
EVERYONE I know is aware of the benefits[/b]
Just becuase they are aware of the benefits doesn't mean they don't think formula is just as good. And how many moms know that tehre actual dangers of using formula?

Quote:
When I hear that only 3 to 4 per cent of women truly can't produce enough milk, I think of myself and the seven or eight other women I know who *truly* did everything from LCs to visits to doctors who specialize in BFing, to LLL, to books, videos, herbal supplements, prescription medications that cause stomach upset and terrible headaches, etc. and were still after several months producing only a few ounces during a test weigh.[/b]
How old were they when thier infants where weighing a few ozs at their test weighs?

Quote:
I actually can't recall seeing a formula commercial on tv ever?? Maybe I'm blanking...[/b]
I do believe Canada is much more supportive of breastfeeding than US and maybe doesn't even allow formula commercials. In US if you are wathcing TLC you will see at least one Nestle commercial every hour.
[/b][/quote]

To the first bolded: I can't speak for everyone, but yes, I think most people are probably not as clear on formula dangers. Having said that, the "actual danger" of NOT using formula, in our case, would have been starvation and death. (No, we don't have publicly accessible milk banks and I don't have any lactating friends that would have had the time or inclination to come feed my child eight to 12 times a day.) And, to me, the danger of formula still trumps the danger of Carnation Evaporated Milk mixed with water, or sugar water, things moms in previous generations who were unable to feed their babies resorted to.

To the second bolded: I know moms who did test weighs in the first few weeks - when a few ounces is normal. But I also know moms who did them further along, when a few ounces is not normal. I did one at two months post-partum (two months of pumping, nursing on demand between every hour or every two to three hours - even setting the alarm to nurse if it had gone as long as three hours - being on the max allowable amount of donperidone, doing massage, attending BF clinics held by my local health unit, visits to my doctor, fenugreek, etc.) and he got exactly two ounces out of one breast (after 15 minutes of nursing) and ONE TABLESPOON out of the other breast. Yes, of course I was supplementing during this period ... but it was not what I started out doing, nor was it what i wanted to do. And there were days when I'd say "ok, if I offer NO supplement at all, and just nurse all day long, we'll have more tomorrow, and more the day after" and we did that ... and you know, my kid was starving all day long. I cried, I ranted, I travelled across hell's half acre (literally in real life and online) getting help and support. IT DID NOT WORK.

When people hear the "whole" story, they say "oh, well, obviously YOU tried, not like some moms, you dno't have to feel bad" but I can honestly say my story is not unusual among the moms I know . Which is why threads about how ignorant moms are, and if they only had the right information, they'd NEVER have to resort to formula, get my back up. The moms I know who "resorted" to formula did everything "right" and it still didn't work.

Don't get me wrong, I support BFing and always will. But assumptions about non-BFing moms are as bad as assumptions about why someone is "STILL bfing" or assumptions about any other choices they make. I simply do not believe that the *majority* of non-BFing moms (at least where I live) have made the choices they've made based on ignorance or lack of information.

And to the third bolded: ahh, TLC! Maybe that's why I don't see the ads ... I have had to avoid TLC since DS was born, the baby story makes me cry!
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  #8  
June 12th, 2008, 04:33 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Having said that, the "actual danger" of NOT using formula, in our case, would have been starvation and death[/b]
I completely understand that.
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  #9  
June 12th, 2008, 05:41 PM
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It may be different in Canada, I don't know, but I can say I know LOTS & LOTS of people in general (young & old alike) that don't have a clue about the benefits of BM. I have had some of the most ridiculous & ignorant questions asked of me - and I don't even mean rude...just silly to me that people don't know this stuff, or that they think this way....it seems like I have done a TON of sharing info since I had DS. I have had tons of comments too like when DS was teething, another mom with a baby of a similar age said to me "I am glad I am not BFing - if I were you I'd wean him before he bites you" I had a women in her 30's (with no kids) tell me that if any kid of hers ever bit her that would be the end of nursing"....mind you biting has NEVER even been an issue I have had to really deal with, not only that DS was about 5 months at the time. He did bite me a few times, I did what they recommend to get them to stop & he stopped. I have NEVER complained about it to anyone, it was never an issue for us. I have also had people ask why I BF'ed him past 3 months "since they get everything they need from BM in the first 3 months", I have been asked "why would I make myself so miserable with a baby that has to eat all the time & probably won't sleep through the night until I wean him" - also 2 more things I NEVER complained about, particularly to the person making the comment. I could go on & on. I imagine there are many places in the world where people are well aware of the benefits of BM. I can say Michigan isn't one of them. I think this really is something that should be covered in a health class, etc. I believe that ALL people (men & women) need to know the benefits so that dad's can be more supportive to mom's when they are BFing as well. I also see formula ads ALL the time. I have had people tell me that they tried BF & they thought it was "too hard, the baby ate too often, the baby wouldn't sleep through the night, they wanted to have their body back", etc, etc. Not every mom who quits BF does so because she exhausts every option. Many quit early on when it is more demanding & they don't want to deal with it anymore. I agree that there are TONS that really try too & it doesn't work no matter what they have tried, whether that means they got all the right advice & it still didn't work or they got bad advice & that was the downfall. Either way - the result is pretty much the same so in that way I view that as the same... You can't possibly say that every mom that quits BF does so tearfully any more than you can say that every mom that BF does so because she believes it's what is best for baby. Heck even I know women that did it because for THEM it was pretty easy (no cracked nipples, no thrush, no mastitus, great supply, etc, etc and free). Now it is great that the babies benefited from what was easiest for them...but it goes to show too that just because a woman chooses to do a particular thing doesn't necessarily mean the reasons behind it are the same for every woman.

I know it is hard to hear any comment about FF that seems negative. I can tell by the responses we see in here often & all the long stories women tell of how BF didn't work for them. All I can say is that I don't think anyone intends to ever say "all ff moms....". I for one know I never think that way. I have known lots & lots & lots of FF moms (way more FF moms that BF moms) and they all have their different reasons they don't BF....only a few that I know are because they tried very hard & just couldn't..and I am dead serious about that. Most never tried at all or made it less than 4 weeks...and I am being generous abut saying 4 weeks. Out of those I know no one that quit due to supply. Practically everyone I knew told me "not to be upset if it didn't work out" and all told me that I would likely not do it more than a month or two at most. I really was a bit concerned that it was a monumentally difficult thing I wouldn't be able to do. Thank heavens I got in touch with LLL & had a good LC at the hospital & great support on JM. I think it is the ONLY reason I made it, since I certainly wasn't getting any support IRL - and heck - before I was ready to have kids...I was TOTALLY ignorant about all the benefits of BM myself...and I don't consider myself to be a closed minded, blinders kind of woman. I just live in an area where FF is very much the norm.
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  #10  
June 12th, 2008, 07:33 PM
Tiffers's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
To suggest that the majority of moms choose formula from a position of ignorance is condescending. Yes, I'm sure there are a portion of moms who do ... but the majority of moms who go to formula do so for a myriad of reasons, not because they're too stupid to know better.[/b]
I don't think that's what anyone is saying (I know it's not what I'm trying to get at). It's not ignorance, it's just seeing what's presented, still feeling, "eh, formula is just as good", and not even attempting to breastfeed. And it's not all FF'ers because some have personal reasons why they don't feel comfortable breastfeeding, some try to breastfeed and have problems, it's those who go straight because "it's just as good as breastmilk".
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  #11  
June 13th, 2008, 07:18 AM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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To suggest that the majority of moms choose formula from a position of ignorance is condescending. Yes, I'm sure there are a portion of moms who do ... but the majority of moms who go to formula do so for a myriad of reasons, not because they're too stupid to know better.[/b]
I wasn't implying that but at the same time you can't compare the majority of moms in the world to the moms here on JM. I would say that the moms that take the time to post here and learn the many things that I know I have learned from message boards are much more knowledgable about a lot of things.

Quote:
However, according to a new poll, some 75 percent of women across the UK do not know that breastfeeding can help prevent women from developing the condition.
And two-thirds of women do not know that breastfeeding cuts a child's chances of being overweight.

A study published by the American Institute of Cancer Research in January reviewed data from 98 studies worldwide to conclude that there was "convincing" evidence that breastfeeding cuts the chances of developing both pre and post-menopausal breast cancer[/b]
The article says 75%. That is the majority on this one issue. This one very important isssue.I would say it is safe to assume that those 75% are ill informed of the other benefits. Maybe the choose to use or switch to formula for a variety of reasons but at the same time maybe if they were more informed on how important breastmilk was those reasons wouldn't seem like very good reasons anymore, KWIM?
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  #12  
June 13th, 2008, 08:41 AM
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I think a lot of people still think formula is just as good The formula companies are good at making formula look like it's an equal subsitute for breastmilk.[/b]
My sister said this to me when Kailey was a few months old. LOL! I looked at her like are you serious?
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  #13  
June 13th, 2008, 05:34 PM
~Jess~'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I think a lot of people still think formula is just as good The formula companies are good at making formula look like it's an equal subsitute for breastmilk.[/b]
I rarely post in this area anymore because, I'll be honest, I let my feelings get wrapped up in the debate, which isn't the point of a debate, but ... sigh... I have to reply...

I *really* disagree. Since my DS was born in July last year, I have gotten very involved in local mom groups and organizations ... we have poor moms, rich moms, educated moms, not-educated moms, older moms, teen moms, moms who used midwives, moms who had OBs, moms who had normal labours, moms who had geunine crash C/Ss etc. Most are from Canada originally, but many are also newer immigrants from other countries. In other words, I have talked to a LOT of moms with a variety of backgrounds, about issues related to having a new baby, and BFing is one of the biggest conversations.

EVERYONE I know is aware of the benefits. Most of these moms have done everything possible to BF, extended BF, etc. despite latch issues, low milk supply, exhaustion, cracking, mastitis, etc. ... those of us who couldn't BF for one reason or another feel embarrassed or ashamed when we "pull out the botte" at a group event. Some of us used to time our arrival for immediately after a feeding so that we wouldn't have to feed in front of anyone.

Using formula is the "dirty little secret" that some moms will mention only in a hushed voice, like they don't want anyone to know about it.

When I read some statistics related to BFing, such as those that are often presented here, I have to wonder how truthful the source information is... if the stats are coming from doctors or public health bodies, the assumption is that the doctors are getting full and honest information. I know lots of moms who "implied" to their public health nurse or their doctors that they were still exclusively BFing even if they weren't, because the tongue-lashing they'd get over it wasn't worth it. Maybe they stopped after several bouts of mastitis, or after their sheer exhaustion of round the clock nursing and pumping was pushing them to the brink of collapse, but for whatever reason, they stopped nursing exclusively - but rather than hear the same old "just keep nursing, nurse through it, keep nursing" they told partial truths to their doctors. When I hear that only 3 to 4 per cent of women truly can't produce enough milk, I think of myself and the seven or eight other women I know who *truly* did everything from LCs to visits to doctors who specialize in BFing, to LLL, to books, videos, herbal supplements, prescription medications that cause stomach upset and terrible headaches, etc. and were still after several months producing only a few ounces during a test weigh.

To suggest that the majority of moms choose formula from a position of ignorance is condescending. Yes, I'm sure there are a portion of moms who do ... but the majority of moms who go to formula do so for a myriad of reasons, not because they're too stupid to know better.
[/b]
You're in Canada, which is much MUCH more breastfeeding friendly. The US is a whole 'nother can of worms.

For example, you mention dr.s encouraging women to "keep nursing, nurse thru it" etc and women feeling like they need to hide the fact that they aren't nursing anymore. Here, as soon as you walk in the first question is: "Which formula are you giving him?" And then a surprised "good for you!" look when you say you're breastfeeding.
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  #14  
June 16th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Erin&#39;s First's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I was a FF feeding mom and plan to do it with the next one. I'm not at all embarrassed about it. I'll tell anyone who asks. I don't feel bad that I didn't BF b/c there were issues involved. Yes I did try but it didn't work out for me. Why should I feel bad about not BF? Why should anyone else look down at me b/c I didn't BF?
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  #15  
June 17th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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I was a FF feeding mom and plan to do it with the next one. I'm not at all embarrassed about it. I'll tell anyone who asks. I don't feel bad that I didn't BF b/c there were issues involved. Yes I did try but it didn't work out for me. Why should I feel bad about not BF? Why should anyone else look down at me b/c I didn't BF?[/b]
Is this rhetorical? Or do you want an answer, and feel okay with adding it as a question to this debate?
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  #16  
June 17th, 2008, 03:42 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Why should I feel bad about not BF?[/b]

http://www.breastfeedingtaskforla.org/ABMRisks.htm
http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mi...t-formula.html
http://pregnancychildbirth.suite101.com/ar..._infant_formula
http://www.wearsthebaby.com/infantformula.htm

Formula feeding accounts for up to 26% of insulin dependent diabetes mellitus in children. Otitis media (middle ear infection) is up to 3-4 times as prevalent in formula-fed infants. US Formula fed infants have a 10 fold risk of being hospitalized for any bacterial infection.

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Scores on the Baley Mental Development Index were lower in formula-fed children at 1-2 years of age. Scores were directly correlated with the duration of breastfeeding. Formula fed preterm infants had lower IQ scores (8 points) at age 7-8 years than breastfed premies, even after adjustment for mother's education and social class.
Due to an excessive phosphate load in formula, formula fed infants face a 30-fold risk of neonatal hypocalcemic tetany (convulsions, seizures, twitching) during the first 10 days of life. Formula fed infants are at a high risk of exposure to life-threatening bacterial contamination. Enterobacter sakazakii is a frequent contaminant in powdered formula and can cause sepsis and meningitis in newborns.

Add the risk of formula recalls found at: http://www.caprine.co.nz/reference/linki... and then decide if using them is worth the risks you may be subjecting the non-human infant to. Cases of Salmonella contamination, glass particles found in formula bottles and labeling errors. "Several studies link formula feeding with rotavirus gastroenteritis, celiac disease, Crohn's Disease, ulcerative colitis in adulthood, childhood-onset insulin dependent diabetes mellitus, lymphomas."
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  #17  
June 17th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Erin&#39;s First's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Go ahead, keep it coming, make FF moms feel even worse about themselves about not BF. Give us some more facts about how we are harming our children.
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  #18  
June 17th, 2008, 04:03 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I don't understand why being educated about something makes you feel bad. My first child was using formula before we even left the hospital. I gave up it hurt to much formula was easier and just as good or so I thought. The next baby I read everything I could and found the debate boards at Geoparents and learned a ton. I knew when I had my first that breastfeeding was better I just had no idea how huge the difference was and my son suffered becuase of my ignorance sure I feel bad about that but I learned from my choices.
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  #19  
June 17th, 2008, 04:11 PM
Erin&#39;s First's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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It's not the education that makes me feel bad, it's all the negative hype that comes from BF mommy's toward FF moms. This is just what I've experienced and just how I feel. I'm not trying to argue about it. I tried BF and it didn't work out for me. I educated myself the best I could and wish it had worked out. But now to throw all this negative info. out there about FF, well it's just not necessary IMO. It just feels like a stab in the back for not BF. I would rather not know all the negative things about FF. I know BF is the best feeding method for babies, but I didn't do that so why throw all this negativity in my face?
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  #20  
June 17th, 2008, 04:37 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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It just feels like a stab in the back for not BF. I would rather not know all the negative things about FF. I know BF is the best feeding method for babies, but I didn't do that so why throw all this negativity in my face?[/b]
Because you are on a formula feeding debate board. If you would rather go with the ignorance is bliss approach I would suggest not reading these boards. The information negative or positive is necessary for people who want the truth.
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