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  #1  
June 14th, 2008, 02:54 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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In the abortion debates there was a thread discussing gender selection in other cultures through abortion. In that thread some were rather disgusted by the practice. Others said you cannot judge another culture by your culture's standards. Soooooo this is NOT an abortion debate...this is a thread about whether or not you can judge another culture by your culture's standards.....like for instance in that case can we no longer be outraged & disgusted by female genital mutilation? Can we not be upset that China uses child labor (as this country also once did)? Aren't these things cultural too? What about the practice of a girl that was raped being killed by a male member of her family to preserve their "honor" - that's cool too? I guess I don't understand why we can't judge another culture's practice as immoral, unethical, even disgusting if in fact we believe the practice they are engaging in is EXACTLY that? I guess to me cultural norm does not equal acceptable practice.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #2  
June 14th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Karlie's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
In the abortion debates there was a thread discussing gender selection in other cultures through abortion. In that thread some were rather disgusted by the practice. Others said you cannot judge another culture by your culture's standards. Soooooo this is NOT an abortion debate...this is a thread about whether or not you can judge another culture by your culture's standards.....like for instance in that case can we no longer be outraged & disgusted by female genital mutilation? Can we not be upset that China uses child labor (as this country also once did)? Aren't these things cultural too? What about the practice of a girl that was raped being killed by a male member of her family to preserve their "honor" - that's cool too? I guess I don't understand why we can't judge another culture's practice as immoral, unethical, even disgusting if in fact we believe the practice they are engaging in is EXACTLY that? I guess to me cultural norm does not equal acceptable practice.[/b]
It's normal and natural to judge another culture by your culture's standards - it's called ethnocentrism and everybody does it whether they understand it or not. I completely agree with you, the bottom line is just because an act is culturally accepted in a certain community does not make it morally correct and we should not accept it or justify it.

Example - in Australia it is Aboriginal culture for girls as young as 12 to be married and produce children yet in the wider Australian community this would be classed as carnal knowledge. Are we supposed to allow one set of rules for Aboriginal Australians and a separate set for Non Aboriginal Australians? Aren't we morally obliged to protect ALL Australian children from 'sexual abuse?' Food for thought...

(Just a lurker popping in but this topic really interests me).
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  #3  
June 14th, 2008, 10:19 AM
Fluffy Baby's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Well, nothing as extreme as that, but Gina and I are judged because we get our DDs ears pierced young because of culture reasons. I do not think anybody has the right to judge us for that. If we were FGM, killing because of a rape, etc, then I could see why we would be judged. There are somethings that just aren't that bad and people shouldn't run around comparing them (not saying you are). I don't really CARE what they do in other cultures, because in reality, I can't change it and I am not going to stress about it. I do think they are gross practices out there, but I don't think we have any right to change or make them do what our AMERICAN culture does.

People KNOW what their cultures practices are. If they don't like it, they have an option to leave.
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  #5  
June 14th, 2008, 02:03 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
It's normal and natural to judge another culture by your culture's standards - it's called ethnocentrism and everybody does it whether they understand it or not. I completely agree with you, the bottom line is just because an act is culturally accepted in a certain community does not make it morally correct and we should not accept it or justify it.

Example - in Australia it is Aboriginal culture for girls as young as 12 to be married and produce children yet in the wider Australian community this would be classed as carnal knowledge. Are we supposed to allow one set of rules for Aboriginal Australians and a separate set for Non Aboriginal Australians? Aren't we morally obliged to protect ALL Australian children from 'sexual abuse?' Food for thought...[/b]
Yes, in that case there ought to be two laws. You are confusing the right to judge someone's behavior with the right to write their laws; one doesn't follow from the other. Aboriginals have a right to autonomy, and should not have to conform to white Australians' view of what is the proper age for marriage.

Furthermore, just because something would be categorized as immoral, or "abuse" by white society does not mean any tangible harm is being done. I'd say in the case of early marriage, that is true more often than not.
[/b]
But you see..how can you really say "no tangible harm is being done" when it is well documented that giving birth at those ages is not healthy for the mom (or the baby). She isn't yet done growing herself & many really young girls aren't fully developed enough to have their hips be ready for child bearing (I know there are older women with this same problem but it is far more prevalent in very young girls since they haven't reached full development). It is also well documented that the younger the bride the higher the prevalence of domestic violence & lack of options for the girl. I am not "judging" someone's behavior because I find it "icky" on a sexual morality level so much as I see it as way too easy for that to become a complete human rights violation. When I was 13 my parents insisted that I get "confirmed" in my church. I didn't want to - but I also didn't feel I had a right to speak up about it either. I tried to talk to them a little & was quickly shut down because I couldn't even properly articulate my feelings on it to get them to hear me out...and I was very well spoken compared to my peers at that age. At that age you are still soooooo far from developed not just physically but also mentally that you cannot possibly give real consent to anything as serious as marriage or be expected to even be able to have a reasonable discussion with your parents on why you don't want to.....or even worse, be able to tell your 30 yr old husband you don't want to have sex tonight or that you don't want a baby right now. Here is one research document that touches on all of those things...
www.icrw.org/docs/tooyoungtowed_1003.pdf (I hope you can link from that - I am not sure how to link to PDF's)

Here are some stats on ONE area of serious risk on having babies too young....I couldn't find aboriginal stats..so this is the best I could find
Maternal mortality by age: (per 100,000 live births)
Ethiopia
15-19yo 1275
20-24yo 425
Indonesia
15-19yo 1100
20-24yo 580
Bangladesh
15-19yo 830
20-24yo 440
Nigeria
15-19yo 575
20-24yo 210
Brazil
15-19yo 110
20-24yo 75


check out this article too: http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070308095758791

It is not "white mans mortality" that is trying to be pushed onto these other cultures in trying to delay marriage....it is medically & socioeconomically devastating to these girls to be married too young and it hurts their children an their society overall. If you research even a little bit there are tons and tons of studies done on this very issue by ALL cultures - and not just "white men".... I could not find a study that actually showed there to be an overall benefit to children being married off. It gave reasons it was done, et....but even then states it is not in the girl's best interest, not in her children's best interest & not in the overall societies best interest.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #6  
June 14th, 2008, 06:47 PM
glasscandie's Avatar What I make is what I am
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I think in the case of sex selection abortion, it certainly is wrong to judge by your culture's standards. What people are doing is judging by their personal moral standards, might it be religious or otherwise, which is wrong - because as we just hashed out in the Religious Debates forum, morality is completely set by the society that it exists in. Even if you feel your religious beliefs are the one and only way to live, it doesn't negate the fact that others believe differently, and no one really has a basis for saying "I'm right and you're wrong".

I don't think it's fair to compare the other examples (Aussie Aboriginals, etc.) to the sex-selection example, because they're completely not the same.
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  #7  
June 14th, 2008, 10:34 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I think in the case of sex selection abortion, it certainly is wrong to judge by your culture's standards. What people are doing is judging by their personal moral standards, might it be religious or otherwise, which is wrong - because as we just hashed out in the Religious Debates forum, morality is completely set by the society that it exists in. Even if you feel your religious beliefs are the one and only way to live, it doesn't negate the fact that others believe differently, and no one really has a basis for saying "I'm right and you're wrong".

I don't think it's fair to compare the other examples (Aussie Aboriginals, etc.) to the sex-selection example, because they're completely not the same.[/b]
I am not specifying this debate to be about the sex selection abortions, in fact I stated that it was NOT about that...I am speaking in general about judging another culture. I do not view it based on my personal moral standards...I judge it based on the actual ignorance of it myself. As a woman I cannot respect anything that any culture does that limits women's rights or the value placed on a woman. Why should I? I could as easily be me if I were born some place else & I would never want to be forced to live in those conditions. There are certain inalienable "truths" that can be studied, measured & weighed independent of ANY religious, cultural, moral, ethical personal beliefs being involved & a judgment can be made SOLELY on that. In China this type of thinking has caused there to be such a gap in gender ration that it is causing numerous social problems that have been mapped, followed, studied...at the very least it has caused a shortage of maritable aged women. That isn't my belief, or my culture that tells me that, it is just the facts. I stated in a PP the reasons that marrying too young causes issues & showed links to articles & data gathered about that, etc, etc, etc. There are many cases, if not most cases, of judging other's cultural practices to be inappropriate based SOLELY on science, data & research without EVER getting one's personal ideas/values/beliefs involved.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #9  
June 15th, 2008, 08:34 AM
glasscandie's Avatar What I make is what I am
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Quote:
Quote:
I think in the case of sex selection abortion, it certainly is wrong to judge by your culture's standards. What people are doing is judging by their personal moral standards, might it be religious or otherwise, which is wrong - because as we just hashed out in the Religious Debates forum, morality is completely set by the society that it exists in. Even if you feel your religious beliefs are the one and only way to live, it doesn't negate the fact that others believe differently, and no one really has a basis for saying "I'm right and you're wrong".

I don't think it's fair to compare the other examples (Aussie Aboriginals, etc.) to the sex-selection example, because they're completely not the same.[/b]
I am not specifying this debate to be about the sex selection abortions, in fact I stated that it was NOT about that...I am speaking in general about judging another culture. I do not view it based on my personal moral standards...I judge it based on the actual ignorance of it myself. As a woman I cannot respect anything that any culture does that limits women's rights or the value placed on a woman. Why should I? I could as easily be me if I were born some place else & I would never want to be forced to live in those conditions. There are certain inalienable "truths" that can be studied, measured & weighed independent of ANY religious, cultural, moral, ethical personal beliefs being involved & a judgment can be made SOLELY on that. In China this type of thinking has caused there to be such a gap in gender ration that it is causing numerous social problems that have been mapped, followed, studied...at the very least it has caused a shortage of maritable aged women. That isn't my belief, or my culture that tells me that, it is just the facts. I stated in a PP the reasons that marrying too young causes issues & showed links to articles & data gathered about that, etc, etc, etc. There are many cases, if not most cases, of judging other's cultural practices to be inappropriate based SOLELY on science, data & research without EVER getting one's personal ideas/values/beliefs involved.
[/b]
I got that you weren't making this debate solely about the sex-selection debate, chill. I'm just saying that in general it's wrong to judge another culture by your culture, because there's no magical anything that says our culture is right and their culture is wrong. Check out the morality debate in Religious Debate - we had this exact conversation. Where I was going with pointing out that the sex-selection debate was different than say, female genital mutilation, was that one is up for debate whether it harms a women - those who are pro-life would say yes, and those who are pro-choice would say no; the latter without a doubt purposefully harms a woman. It's not fair to compare the two. It's one thing to judge a culture by your culture (i.e. the sex-selection debate), but it's another thing to judge a practice as wrong that violates the rights of a living human being (i.e. the FGM debate).
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  #10  
June 15th, 2008, 09:08 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
But you see..how can you really say "no tangible harm is being done" when it is well documented that giving birth at those ages is not healthy for the mom (or the baby).[/b]
(1) Not in every case, it isn't. You might as well say "it is well documented that automobiles are bad for children" because a substantial number of children die in car wrecks.

Quote:
She isn't yet done growing herself & many really young girls aren't fully developed enough to have their hips be ready for child bearing (I know there are older women with this same problem but it is far more prevalent in very young girls since they haven't reached full development).[/b]
(2) Which means, in effect, that both cultures agree that a legal line needs to be drawn, and differ only as to precisely where. Which would appear to make the need for one party to overrule the other to be that much less critical.

Quote:
It is also well documented that the younger the bride the higher the prevalence of domestic violence & lack of options for the girl.[/b]
(3) Is that documented among Australian aboriginals? Source? And if it is, what is the proof that one variable caused the other?

Quote:
Here are some stats on ONE area of serious risk on having babies too young....I couldn't find aboriginal stats..so this is the best I could find
Maternal mortality by age: (per 100,000 live births)[/b]
(4) Note that: per 100,000 births. Those stats do indeed mean that younger pregnancies are more risky. They also show that the overwhelming majority of cases, even at the lower ages, do NOT cause maternal mortality. I don't see how it's any different for whites to override their cost/benefit risk analysis, than it would be for them to say "The white men drive automobiles that crash and burn children to death. That doesn't happen here. We have to take away their automobiles. It's for human rights!"

Quote:
If you research even a little bit there are tons and tons of studies done on this very issue by ALL cultures - and not just "white men".... I could not find a study that actually showed there to be an overall benefit to children being married off. It gave reasons it was done, et....but even then states it is not in the girl's best interest, not in her children's best interest & not in the overall societies best interest.[/b]
(5) Slight bias here...since the Aboriginals and similar groups don't have the wherewithal to produce their own "studies", they are incapable of defending themselves. I have no reason to believe the average Aboriginal woman is less satisfied with her life than the average Aussie or American woman, unless I had the effrontery to suppose that all of them are exactly like me.
[/b]
1 - Nothing is ever "in every case" - that is a totally fallacy. Not every person dies from smoking...I have known plenty that lived into old age, that doesn't mean it isn't proven that smoking cigarettes causes cancer.

2 - I honestly don't know what you are responding to here & it doesn't make sense to me based on what quote it follows...perhaps you could explain.

3 - I could not find specifically stats or studies on Aboriginals. that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though...I just don't have hours & hours to search it. Maybe you could come up with one that shows that this isn't a detrimental practice? I found lots & lots that showed the disadvantages to the women, their offspring & to the society as a whole through many different countries & cultures. I am completely open to changing my mind if proven wrong...so feel free to show me anything that says this practice is good for those girls. I have been wrong in the past. I have not personally found anything to support what you are saying (and you have provided me nothing) but I have found lots of sources to indicate what I have been saying & I have shared what I found.

4 - What? So since the overwhelming majority of babies don't die of crib death when living in a smoke filled environment sleeping on their bellies with loose blankets, that is now a good practice & should be seen as fine? I did note the per 100,000 live births...I typed the thing out myself since I couldn't seem to copy & paste a chart.... Mind you those stats were for 15-19 yr olds & they showed an often double risk to the moms than 20-24....I am certain the risks are higher the younger you go....I just couldn't find exact numbers, all I could find were articles that talked about the risks increasing the younger the mom is without giving specific details. Your comparison to taking away cars is a bit flawed. I am not saying never get married. I am saying that data strongly suggest that waiting until a girl is older is reducing substantial risks to her. I am NOT siting maternal mortality to be the ONLY risk factor - just one that is EASILY demonstrated as one area of detriment. Perhaps if that were the ONLY risk I could see your analogy.

5 - I don't suppose others are like me either. Why would I? I know plenty of women IRL that are nothing like me & we have EVERYTHING in common. What I do suppose is that it is the human condition to want to have a say so in how one's life is directed. I have yet to come across anything that suggests that women that are subjegated in their society by being kept from an opportunity to be educated & who don't have many options have a high level of happiness. I am certain some are happy...I was happy living in the dysfunction of my family life until I got out of it & saw it for what it was. That isn't evidence of anything. Maybe you could provide some of this evidence on which you base your stance on this practice?

Here are more links if you like:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5003900,00.html
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...ec=Worldupdates Pat Anderson in this article is an Aboriginal woman & a leader in her community...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...18/2193300.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/abo...6982123475.html
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B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #11  
June 15th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I don't think we should judge another culture using our own moral/ethical principles. However, it's not always easy to avoid it. After all, moral and ethical principles are a big part of who we are and it's difficult to put them aside when facing a concept that's so foreign to us. I have to say that I've learned not to judge others because I've been harshly judged because of my cultural/religious beliefs (by being jewish and givng my sons a bris). I've been on the receiving end of this judging process and ican tell you that it's not fair. Especially in situations that are debatable, we cannot impose our moral/ethical ideas to another culture. I can understand in situations where there's a clear and undebatable harm. That still doesn't give us a right, as a society, to change another culture's laws and practices. We can express disagreement, but that's as far as we can go.

Sharon
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  #12  
August 30th, 2008, 10:20 AM
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I really don't see a difference in judging people's culture as different from judging a co-worker's dating habits. My moral beliefs are what makes me think something is wrong. So what makes this any different. Us judging their cultures is not going to make a difference on how they believe. What if Hitler had not been stopped committing genocide? There was a whole group of people who cultural believed they were doing right by "cleansing" their race...

I think a line has to be drawn some where.. But I have the same stance on that as I do illeagal immigration.. A line needs to be drawn but don't volunteer me to do it.
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  #13  
August 31st, 2008, 11:03 AM
TeresaMarie's Avatar Super Mommy
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Ethnocentrism is not a character asset but a FAULT.

We cannot judge other cultures by our own because we do not have the same values, morals, mores, prejudices, etc. We do not share the same cultural experiences, nor do we live in the community in which others live.

Just as I could not (not that I DO not, I am INCAPABLE) judge another culture who eats dog or squirrel or reveres cattle. I don't live that life so don't have anything to use as a qualifier.

It isn't natural or normal to be ethnocentric. It's right on the lines of being egocentric or sexist.
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  #14  
August 31st, 2008, 12:38 PM
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No, I don't think it's right.

Personally, I think it's horrible that rape victims are blamed, women are repressed, children are abused, etc... BUT I would not interfere or judge them off that.

Like I said in the other debate: some cultures think it is MORALLY wrong to allow women the freedom of men... so should we conform to their morals?

Then why should they conform to ours?
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  #15  
August 31st, 2008, 02:11 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Frankly I'm shocked!! Does nobody believe that something can be objectively evil?
There is a such a thing as right and wrong and it is not based on culture. There is a natural law.
For those of you who believe that a culture can't be judged based on our culture - I would agree - but you can judge people on an objective standard of moral good and evil. Do you think that Human Rights International is a bad organization? Do you think fighting to end torture in prisons is bad because that culture deems it as a normal part of their crime and punishment? are there no basic human rights that we all deserve?

That goodness the vast majority of the world does not subscribe to this moral relativism I'm gathering from people on here!

Quote:
No, I don't think it's right.

Personally, I think it's horrible that rape victims are blamed, women are repressed, children are abused, etc... BUT I would not interfere or judge them off that.

Like I said in the other debate: some cultures think it is MORALLY wrong to allow women the freedom of men... so should we conform to their morals?

Then why should they conform to ours?[/b]

So, in the united states capital punishment is allowed - it has been part of our countries "culture" sense this country began and it is legal so I hope you would never judge this country and say that it is wrong that we have the dealth penalty!! it is part of our culture and our justice system - you would never interfere with that correct?
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  #16  
August 31st, 2008, 03:00 PM
TeresaMarie's Avatar Super Mommy
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Margaret- it is part of our culture? And yes since I LIVE in this society I CAN judge based on OUR cultural values.
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  #17  
August 31st, 2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Frankly I'm shocked!! Does nobody believe that something can be objectively evil?[/b]
I don't.

Quote:
There is a such a thing as right and wrong and it is not based on culture. There is a natural law.[/b]
What like... "survival of the fittest"? That is the only "natural" law there is.

Quote:
For those of you who believe that a culture can't be judged based on our culture - I would agree - but you can judge people on an objective standard of moral good and evil. Do you think that Human Rights International is a bad organization? Do you think fighting to end torture in prisons is bad because that culture deems it as a normal part of their crime and punishment? are there no basic human rights that we all deserve?[/b]
I don't necessarily think it's a "bad" organization, but it's not one that I would join or support.

I don't believe there are basic human right. I believe there are only the rights that your culture gives you... and YOU can fight to change YOUR CULTURES laws and morals.. but no outsider can.

Quote:
That goodness the vast majority of the world does not subscribe to this moral relativism I'm gathering from people on here![/b]
If the vast majority felt this way, we wouldn't be in the middle of an unnecessary war.


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So, in the united states capital punishment is allowed - it has been part of our countries "culture" sense this country began and it is legal so I hope you would never judge this country and say that it is wrong that we have the dealth penalty!! it is part of our culture and our justice system - you would never interfere with that correct?[/b]
I'm pro-death penalty, so I have no idea wth this is supposed to "prove".

Also - this debate is about judging OTHER cultures... not your own. So even if I was for getting rid of the death penalty, it STILL wouldn't have anything to do with this debate since I have full right to judge and try to change my own countries laws.
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  #18  
August 31st, 2008, 08:57 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver metro area
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
Margaret- it is part of our culture? And yes since I LIVE in this society I CAN judge based on OUR cultural values.[/b]
Culture according to webster's:

the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group

I think it could be aruged that the state has the right to put a criminal to death because it is our society's "customary belief" that the state should have that right.

But, would you respond to my questions? anybody? there is NOTHING that is objectively evil? there are NO basic human rights? there is NO natural law?
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"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #19  
August 31st, 2008, 09:03 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver metro area
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
Quote:
Frankly I'm shocked!! Does nobody believe that something can be objectively evil?[/b]
I don't.

Quote:
There is a such a thing as right and wrong and it is not based on culture. There is a natural law.[/b]
What like... "survival of the fittest"? That is the only "natural" law there is.

Quote:
For those of you who believe that a culture can't be judged based on our culture - I would agree - but you can judge people on an objective standard of moral good and evil. Do you think that Human Rights International is a bad organization? Do you think fighting to end torture in prisons is bad because that culture deems it as a normal part of their crime and punishment? are there no basic human rights that we all deserve?[/b]
I don't necessarily think it's a "bad" organization, but it's not one that I would join or support.

I don't believe there are basic human right. I believe there are only the rights that your culture gives you... and YOU can fight to change YOUR CULTURES laws and morals.. but no outsider can.

Quote:
That goodness the vast majority of the world does not subscribe to this moral relativism I'm gathering from people on here![/b]
If the vast majority felt this way, we wouldn't be in the middle of an unnecessary war.


Quote:
So, in the united states capital punishment is allowed - it has been part of our countries "culture" sense this country began and it is legal so I hope you would never judge this country and say that it is wrong that we have the dealth penalty!! it is part of our culture and our justice system - you would never interfere with that correct?[/b]
I'm pro-death penalty, so I have no idea wth this is supposed to "prove".

Also - this debate is about judging OTHER cultures... not your own. So even if I was for getting rid of the death penalty, it STILL wouldn't have anything to do with this debate since I have full right to judge and try to change my own countries laws.
[/b]
Many countries are dominated by men and women are treated horribly. So, would your position be that the strongest of the group or culture gets to determine what is right and wrong? Your response to oppressed, beaten and raped women in these places would be what? sorry! it is your culture not mine! good luck getting things changed but in the meantim no sympathy or help is deserved from me or anyone else because you were the lucky one born into that culture/country. Sucks to be you!
__________________


"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #20  
August 31st, 2008, 09:23 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Many countries are dominated by men and women are treated horribly. So, would your position be that the strongest of the group or culture gets to determine what is right and wrong? Your response to oppressed, beaten and raped women in these places would be what? sorry! it is your culture not mine! good luck getting things changed but in the meantim no sympathy or help is deserved from me or anyone else because you were the lucky one born into that culture/country. Sucks to be you![/b]
I believe I have already answered this question...what, twice now?
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