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Personal responsibility will soon be a thing of the past


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  #1  
July 11th, 2008, 02:03 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
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“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. … The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” ~ Thomas Jefferson


We are all too lazy or ignorant to make proper decisions about our diet by reading labels or making healthy choices. Several cities, starting with New York, have enacted laws banning trans fat. It's for your own good.

The nanny state's path has been paved, in large part, by New York. With the introduction of the "fat tax", smoking bans, as well as proposing and passing bans on aluminum bats in baseball games, mp3 players and wireless devices on sidewalks, football and trans fat, New York has led the crusade to save the citizens from themselves through legislation.

Texas attempted to make the Gardasil vaccine mandatory once girls begin sixth grade.

Mississippi proposed legislation that would make it a crime for restaurants to serve obese patrons.

Georgia has proposed legislation that would require schools to measure and record each student's BMI twice a year. Those schools that don't comply will be designated as an "unhealthy school zone".

California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials.

Several states, including Washington, have passed (or are planning to pass) legislation making vaccines mandatory. Parents who do not comply face fines, imprisonment and/or revocation of their parental rights.

States have proposed legislation that would forbid pants worn loose and below the hips.

The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center.


The government was established and designed to protect our rights, to preserve our freedoms and our autonomy. The Framers believed that we were born with our rights, as "endowed by the Creator", and that the government's role was only to protect our liberty. Little by little, though, they are being taken. With each law, we lose another choice, we lose another right. I do not need, or want, the government to protect me from myself.

What people fail to understand, I believe, is that you cannot pick and choose which rights, which choice, which freedoms, the government is justified in restricting or eliminating. If you support the subjugation of one person's rights, you support the subjugation of your own, some time in the near future.


Ready. Set. Discuss.



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  #2  
July 11th, 2008, 03:59 PM
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Stacey, between you, Calicocat and simply turning 30...I get it now. I really do.
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  #3  
July 11th, 2008, 09:27 PM
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Totally with ya.
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  #4  
July 11th, 2008, 10:03 PM
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Sad but so true. I'm also with you there!
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  #5  
July 11th, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Where is Calicocat these days????

I'll have an intelligent response to the actual post tomorrow, tonight I just got home from a movie and I'm doing the quickie surf!

Where is Calicocat these days????

I'll have an intelligent response to the actual post tomorrow, tonight I just got home from a movie and I'm doing the quickie surf!
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  #6  
July 12th, 2008, 07:10 AM
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I agree with you on almost all of this post, Stacey - with a few exceptions.

1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.

2) "California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials." I'd have to look into this more, but it seems pretty logical that a homeschooling parent have some sort of credential or at least take a class regarding educational methods. If education is the basis of our children's future, why should just anyone be the sole provider of it?

3) "The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center." We've had this debate already, but it is NOT legislation criminalizing birth outside of a hospital or hospital-based birthing center. It regards certification of people who supervise or conduct a birth, and of course bears monitoring by us all. But let's not confuse the two.

Everything else... yeah. The lack of personal responsibility in our society today astounds me.
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  #7  
July 12th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Live4Love's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
I agree with you on almost all of this post, Stacey - with a few exceptions.

1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.

2) "California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials." I'd have to look into this more, but it seems pretty logical that a homeschooling parent have some sort of credential or at least take a class regarding educational methods. If education is the basis of our children's future, why should just anyone be the sole provider of it?

3) "The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center." We've had this debate already, but it is NOT legislation criminalizing birth outside of a hospital or hospital-based birthing center. It regards certification of people who supervise or conduct a birth, and of course bears monitoring by us all. But let's not confuse the two.

Everything else... yeah. The lack of personal responsibility in our society today astounds me.[/b]

I 100% agree! I think that while people the option of participating in the disgusting habit of smoking, they shouldn't be able to expose everyone around them to it (in public areas, that is). Plus, I really do think that it makes sense to have some sort of certification for homeschooling parents - teachers have to hold credentials, so why shouldn't homeschooling parents be held to a standard as well?
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  #8  
July 12th, 2008, 09:19 AM
dinamommy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree with you on almost all of this post, Stacey - with a few exceptions.

1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.

2) "California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials." I'd have to look into this more, but it seems pretty logical that a homeschooling parent have some sort of credential or at least take a class regarding educational methods. If education is the basis of our children's future, why should just anyone be the sole provider of it?

3) "The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center." We've had this debate already, but it is NOT legislation criminalizing birth outside of a hospital or hospital-based birthing center. It regards certification of people who supervise or conduct a birth, and of course bears monitoring by us all. But let's not confuse the two.

Everything else... yeah. The lack of personal responsibility in our society today astounds me.[/b]

I 100% agree! I think that while people the option of participating in the disgusting habit of smoking, they shouldn't be able to expose everyone around them to it (in public areas, that is). Plus, I really do think that it makes sense to have some sort of certification for homeschooling parents - teachers have to hold credentials, so why shouldn't homeschooling parents be held to a standard as well?
[/b]
Teachers in private schools don't have to be certified teachers. Also, I just have to add that I've know PLENTY of stupid educated people. If I want to educate my child at home, whose business is it? There are many many resources to help parents in that area. You don't have to have a degree to homeschool.
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  #9  
July 12th, 2008, 09:26 AM
LadyCoconut's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.[/b]
I disagree about the smoking ban. It's banned here in GA, and while I am not a smoker... I just don't agree with it. I think that it should be up to the business owner as to decide how he wants to run his/her bussiness. I think that with separated areas (including where you don't have to walk through the smoking section to get to the bathrooms, exit, etc.) and areas that are ventilated, etc. why can't they be allowed to smoke inside? If you don't want to be around it, that's fine, you can choose to go elsewhere. Surely there are people and business owners who feel the same way... and will choose to run their businesses accordingly. I just don't think it should be totally banned. A lot of businesses went under... places like pool halls, etc. where there wasn't an age limit to get in... but thrived mostly on smokers who hung out there and would instead go shoot pool @ a bar or somewhere where they could smoke. My main thing though is just that it should be up to the owner and not the government. Smoking may be bad for you, but it IS legal and there are options for non-smokers to avoid being in the way of second hand smoke.
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  #10  
July 12th, 2008, 11:27 AM
SweetSimpleThings's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I agree with you on almost all of this post, Stacey - with a few exceptions.

1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.

2) "California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials." I'd have to look into this more, but it seems pretty logical that a homeschooling parent have some sort of credential or at least take a class regarding educational methods. If education is the basis of our children's future, why should just anyone be the sole provider of it?

3) "The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center." We've had this debate already, but it is NOT legislation criminalizing birth outside of a hospital or hospital-based birthing center. It regards certification of people who supervise or conduct a birth, and of course bears monitoring by us all. But let's not confuse the two.

Everything else... yeah. The lack of personal responsibility in our society today astounds me.[/b]
I largely agree with this... there are certainly too many laws infringing on areas that should be for the individual to decide, but there are also laws that are necessary because of the effect the *individual's* freedom to choose may affect others (ie. other people inhaling smoke, their child's education, etc.)

To the person who said you don't teaching credential to teach in a private school, I can only say: seriously??? I have a very hard time believing that. Most private schools are still regulated by federal/provincial (or state) guidelines regarding education, such as curriculum. I can't imagine that joe blow off the street can come in and start teaching math.

Anyway, in direct response to the original post, I do think that in some ways today's uneven playing field does sometimes make it necessary to create laws to protect people from themselves, as ridiculous as that sounds.

The money and effort that go into selling products, making them seem benign, etc. is phenomenal, so the average person's ability to filter out the information and make appropriate choices IS limited.

For example, regarding the trans fat law, 100 years ago we didn't need a law on something like this because it didn't exist. Hydrogenating oils - to make them have a longer shelf life - was purely a human creation, and one aimed at selling a product and making that product last as long as possible. Add to that a marketing machine that made certain products look like a "better" choice (how long were we told that margarine was better than butter?) and the average Joe is disadvantaged.

Making a law in response to this is not about limiting an individual's freedom, it's about limiting the corporate ability to sell anything, regardless of human impact, for profit.
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  #11  
July 12th, 2008, 11:46 AM
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Teachers in private schools don't have to be certified teachers. Also, I just have to add that I've know PLENTY of stupid educated people. If I want to educate my child at home, whose business is it? There are many many resources to help parents in that area. You don't have to have a degree to homeschool.[/b]
In my area, they certainly do.

There are plenty of stupid educated people around, but that doesn't negate the need of a child to be taught by someone who at least somewhat knows what they are doing. I am certainly not stupid (at least in my opinion ), but that doesn't make me qualified to teach. I think it's a good idea for a homeschooling parent to at least have taken a couple courses in education - the education a child receives is very, very important and not just anyone should be able to administer that.

Side note: I agree with the smoking ban, because second hand smoke can adversely affect everyone around the smoker, with absolutely no exceptions. I do not think that individuals shouldn't have the right to smoke if they choose, but I draw the line when it affects my and my children's health.


Lisa
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  #12  
July 12th, 2008, 11:49 AM
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I can't speak for every state, but I know for a fact that in my state private school teachers most certainly DO have to hold teaching certifications in order to teach in the schools. Honestly, many of the private schools in my area have much higher standards and regulations (such as years of experience, scores on PRAXIS exams, etc) in additions to the regular state certification (or in some cases, national certification).

I think it's downright ridiculous that homeschooling can take place with no necessary degree/certification/classes at all. I would fully stand behind the idea of requiring parents that are homeschooling to be held up to a standard.
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  #13  
July 12th, 2008, 12:11 PM
SweetSimpleThings's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Stacey, I know we've already individually debated some of the things on the OP list, and that they are just examples of what this debate is meant to be about, but I think we could almost start new threads on each of them and be stocked for debating topics for quite some time!!
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  #14  
July 12th, 2008, 12:19 PM
dinamommy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree with you on almost all of this post, Stacey - with a few exceptions.

1) The smoking ban thing, IMO, is different - because it directly affects the health of people around a smoker in a public place. It's like that old saying, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my face." I'm all for individual liberties, but the immediate health and welfare of the population in general supercedes the right of the individual in my book. I wouldn't support bans in private homes or anything like that, but in public places I don't see the horrible thing about it.

2) "California has banned homeschooling, unless the parent(s) has teaching credentials." I'd have to look into this more, but it seems pretty logical that a homeschooling parent have some sort of credential or at least take a class regarding educational methods. If education is the basis of our children's future, why should just anyone be the sole provider of it?

3) "The AMA has introduced legislation that would criminalize any giving birth outside of a hospital or hospital based birthing center." We've had this debate already, but it is NOT legislation criminalizing birth outside of a hospital or hospital-based birthing center. It regards certification of people who supervise or conduct a birth, and of course bears monitoring by us all. But let's not confuse the two.

Everything else... yeah. The lack of personal responsibility in our society today astounds me.[/b]
I largely agree with this... there are certainly too many laws infringing on areas that should be for the individual to decide, but there are also laws that are necessary because of the effect the *individual's* freedom to choose may affect others (ie. other people inhaling smoke, their child's education, etc.)

To the person who said you don't teaching credential to teach in a private school, I can only say: seriously??? I have a very hard time believing that. Most private schools are still regulated by federal/provincial (or state) guidelines regarding education, such as curriculum. I can't imagine that joe blow off the street can come in and start teaching math.

Anyway, in direct response to the original post, I do think that in some ways today's uneven playing field does sometimes make it necessary to create laws to protect people from themselves, as ridiculous as that sounds.

The money and effort that go into selling products, making them seem benign, etc. is phenomenal, so the average person's ability to filter out the information and make appropriate choices IS limited.

For example, regarding the trans fat law, 100 years ago we didn't need a law on something like this because it didn't exist. Hydrogenating oils - to make them have a longer shelf life - was purely a human creation, and one aimed at selling a product and making that product last as long as possible. Add to that a marketing machine that made certain products look like a "better" choice (how long were we told that margarine was better than butter?) and the average Joe is disadvantaged.

Making a law in response to this is not about limiting an individual's freedom, it's about limiting the corporate ability to sell anything, regardless of human impact, for profit.
[/b]
You may find it hard to believe, but it's true. Here's a link that goes state by state:http://www.privateschoolreview.com/articles/71 I don't really see what the big deal is. I know that the school my daughter is starting this fall does pretty extensive interviews for their teaching positions even though they don't necessarily require a teaching degree. The curriculum is pretty hard too. They don't hire just any "joe blow off the street" as you say. My point in bringing this up was just that you don't necessarily have to have a degree to be a good teacher, whether you teach in a school or at home.
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  #15  
July 12th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Tofu Bacon
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There are plenty of stupid educated people around, but that doesn't negate the need of a child to be taught by someone who at least somewhat knows what they are doing. I am certainly not stupid (at least in my opinion ), but that doesn't make me qualified to teach. I think it's a good idea for a homeschooling parent to at least have taken a couple courses in education - the education a child receives is very, very important and not just anyone should be able to administer that.[/b]
Why the assumption that a parent doesn't "know what they're doing" because they don't have a degree? So many parents are homeschooling because their children aren't getting a quality education; no one has more of a vested interest in a child's education than their parents!

Quote:
I think it's downright ridiculous that homeschooling can take place with no necessary degree/certification/classes at all. I would fully stand behind the idea of requiring parents that are homeschooling to be held up to a standard.[/b]
Okay, and which parental freedoms are you willing to turn over to the state?
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  #16  
July 12th, 2008, 01:35 PM
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Is education really only the interest of the parent though? I think a little bit of it belongs to everyone that has to share a society with that child.


Not to say that I am against homeschooling or necessarily even support needing credentials to do so.....Just sayin'
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  #17  
July 12th, 2008, 03:10 PM
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I am in no way against homeschooling. I think that parents should have the option to homeschool their child because they enjoy having that kind of control over their child's education - whether it is because they disagree with education provided in public schools, the socialization of public schools, negative influences, or simply because the parents enjoy that time with their child. I just think that if every other learning environment (i.e. pre-school centers, public schools, private schools, tutoring centers, colleges, trade schools) need to meet a standard to prove that they are fit to educate children, then why would be it such a bad thing for parents opting to homeschool to be held to some sort of standard?

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  #18  
July 12th, 2008, 03:29 PM
Christy72
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Stacey, between you, Calicocat and simply turning 30...I get it now. I really do.[/b]
Turning 30 does make a difference

To the OP great post and I am totally with you. Personal responsibility seems to be a thing of the past. Sigh!
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  #19  
July 12th, 2008, 04:29 PM
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Demolition Man is what we will become!

First, smoking ban is outrageous. Private business owners should be able to decide what goes on in their establishment. I will give you some examples.

You want to come over my home but I smoke inside, all hypothetically speaking. You tell me that you will not come in my home if I smoke. So I decide to smoke instead of doing as you ask. You decide not to come in. End of story. Same with businesses. Would you go to an Italian restaurant if you despised the food? Would you go to a bluegrass bar if the sound made your ears bleed?

Another example: Prolonged sun exposure is bad for you. Should it be a law to wear sunscreen? You have a higher chance of getting cancer from being in the sun too long than you do from being around smokers too long. If the government can decide that smoking is bad for you so ban it then they can decide to ban anything that is bad for you.

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  #20  
July 12th, 2008, 05:19 PM
dinamommy's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Demolition Man is what we will become!

First, smoking ban is outrageous. Private business owners should be able to decide what goes on in their establishment. I will give you some examples.

You want to come over my home but I smoke inside, all hypothetically speaking. You tell me that you will not come in my home if I smoke. So I decide to smoke instead of doing as you ask. You decide not to come in. End of story. Same with businesses. Would you go to an Italian restaurant if you despised the food? Would you go to a bluegrass bar if the sound made your ears bleed?

Another example: Prolonged sun exposure is bad for you. Should it be a law to wear sunscreen? You have a higher chance of getting cancer from being in the sun too long than you do from being around smokers too long. If the government can decide that smoking is bad for you so ban it then they can decide to ban anything that is bad for you. [/b]
Excellent post! I especially like that last paragraph. I assume that most people would think it was ridiculous to make a law requiring sunscreen to be applied before going outdoors, but infringing on other personal liberties is just fine. I'm seeing more and more how all this relates to each other and I would MUCH rather have the government have less involvement in my everyday life than more with all these laws.
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